What to do when spinning out on a roundabout?

StereoSound

I span out today in the wet on a big roundabout and felt like abit of tool. Possibly oil contributed to the spin as the back end slid out like a knife through butter.
Front drivers wheel mounted onto the island but no damage so its all good. I was red faced as the other drivers must a been saying what the fook is that fella doing.

Can someone give me advice on what exactly to do when your car is sliding and out of control? I let go of the brakes and accelerator and tried to steer it straight but I still ended up almost 90 degrees before I gained control again. I got a little bit of a scare but I was more embarrassed then anything else to be honest.

I suppose its not unusual for someone to spinout on a big wet roundabout but for future reference I'd like to know what to do.

PS: I have 4 new Michelin tyres but I am gonna check my tyre pressure later to be sure they are all even.

jimgoose

You did right by coming off the accelerator and brakes, but which way did you steer - the same direction in which the back of the car was moving? You get lots of diesel spills at roundabouts, particularly ones near filling stations as recently-brimmed trucks with knackered fuel-cap seals wobble around them.

b318isp

If you lose the rear, you should steer into the skid, e.g. if the rear is skidding to the left you would steer to the left.

However, this has to be instinctive - you won't have time to think about it. It happened me in 3rd gear this morning as I came over a change in camber under power, but I'm used to it!

Do you drive a front or rear wheel drive car, as the cause for the slide MIGHT be different?

zzfh

i remember this happened me a few years ago in the snow,there was no other cars around so i knew i wasn't going to cause damage to anything but my own car,(which was also a spare as my own was in the garage)

anyways my natural instinct was to steer into the skid and resist to not slam on the brakes..keep accelerating..took me back out of the skid and straightened up.obviously it would take balls to do that on a busy roundabout,i was just lucky it was empty.

Special Circumstances

FWD rwd awd?
Lifting off may not always be the answer... Can be the cause.

StereoSound

First of all the back slid out and I then turn the wheels to the left to try balance the car out but still kept sliding forcing my front end to mount the island. I came back off the island again and carried on as usual to the nearest exit. Because the back end slipped out so easily I'm really thinking there was some substance on the road. I took the round about handy as I normally do. Gonna avoid that route home later just in case there is a spill.

StereoSound

FWD saloon car, maybe if I had accelerated myself out of the spin it may have helped bring the front end straighter.

Spook_ie

IMO
unlikely to be just contamination as surely you would have lost the front before the rear?

Anyways, high horse, don't brake or leave off throttle when changing direction.

StereoSound

Spook_ie wrote: »

IMO
unlikely to be just contamination as surely you would have lost the front before the rear?

Anyways, high horse, don't brake or leave off throttle when changing direction.

The front did slip abit but not much, the rear took the bulk of it. It felt like I was driving on ice to be honest.

b318isp

When cornering, the front and rear tyres will not follow the same path. The difference is small, but something like a shore, painted line or some oil/diesel may be sufficient to trigger it.

I'd also check that the rear tyre pressures are correct - they are often set lower than the front by the manufacturer, but some garages put the same pressure in all.

Finally, it's not a good idea to suddenly back off the accelerator mid bend as it transfers weight off the rear wheels onto the front. A number of modern front wheel drive cars have this tendency increased in order to improve steering turn in.

rowanh

https://www.mondello.ie/cat/product27.htm

I did something like this in a place near Maynooth, i didnt think that much of it at the time but i was driving on a dual carridge way in galways a few years ago on snow at about 80 or 90 kmph and the car started fishtailing, i was able to regain control of the car and while it gave me a fright i stayed calm. Not sure how much was down to the skid course but it certainly didnt hurt. Id reccomend doing something similar to anyone, the one in Mondello might be better than the one i did.

CiniO

jimgoose wrote: »

You did right by coming off the accelerator and brakes,

Assuming FWD, not neccesserily good thing coming off the accelerator.
If it was rear wheel skid (rear of the car skidded towards outside the roundabout), then possibly keeping accelerating and steering left is the best action to quickly prevent further skid.

CiniO

b318isp wrote: »

If you lose the rear, you should steer into the skid, e.g. if the rear is skidding to the left you would steer to the left.

However, this has to be instinctive - you won't have time to think about it. It happened me in 3rd gear this morning as I came over a change in camber under power, but I'm used to it!

Do you drive a front or rear wheel drive car, as the cause for the slide MIGHT be different?

Exactly.
No one is going to make it correctly without practicing first.
That's why I think skid control should be obligatory on driving lessons and obligatory part of driving test.
Every driver sooner or later will skid. And knowing how to control it, will be most likely a different between having accident or not having accident.

CiniO

StereoSound wrote: »

First of all the back slid out and I then turn the wheels to the left to try balance the car out but still kept sliding forcing my front end to mount the island.

That means you were not quick enough with turning your wheel left. Or you didn't turn it left far enough. Or both.

I came back off the island again and carried on as usual to the nearest exit. Because the back end slipped out so easily I'm really thinking there was some substance on the road.

That's very likely. As jimgoose said that's fairly common on roundabouts.

I took the round about handy as I normally do. Gonna avoid that route home later just in case there is a spill.

That's just proves no matter how careful you are, you might skid, and it's profitable to know how to control it.

CiniO

StereoSound wrote: »

FWD saloon car, maybe if I had accelerated myself out of the spin it may have helped bring the front end straighter.

Acceleration on its own, wouldn't help, rather make it worse.
It's slight acceleration and steering towards the skid which would help in case of rear of the car skidding.

Completely different technique in case of front wheels skid.

CiniO

Unfortunately we don't get much snow in Ireland, but roads covered in snow are perfect conditions for skid training. It's all because everything happens slower, so all necessery manouvers can be done slower than on gravel or tarmac.
Snow is perfect for learning.

I spent hundreds of hours since I started driving practicing controlling skids in the winter, very often on some empty roads or forest roads (not in Ireland though).
I still practice whenever I have occasion, and this gives me confidence that in case of sudden skid in normal traffic I can react appropriately.

Good training is to find empty road and skid constantly left and right.
Something like on those videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leBC0eV5rlE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAvkRiNBDt4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vO3c3EQZBE

b318isp

If you wanted to practice skid control, this is great value - a really good birthday present:

http://www.mondello.ie/cat/product27.htm

ShaunieVW

I did the Mondello motoring school and then bought a track car, I learnt more from mondello than I ever did on the road. I have gotten myself out of a couple of sticky situations thanks to it so I'd recommend it to everyone. Skid control should be part of the test anyway. On a FWD saloon my advice would be steer where you want the car to go not where it's going and easy on power ( you want the front end ahead of the rear lol) on a RWD I found with my old 530d which had rubbish tyres when I bought it was to not fight the slide and take control of it, light acceleration again and pointing where you want to go. Lifting off when the rear end is trying to swap around can make it worse of its gone past the point of no return. Every situation is unique though. This is just my experience.

b318isp

ShaunieVW wrote: »

steer where you want the car to go not where it's going ... and pointing where you want to go.

Yes, keeping your eyes on where you want to go, rather than where is actually going is a really important technique when sliding.

When I did rallying lessons, my instructor was always iterating the need to lift my eyes, look ahead and focus on where I want to be. I got to the point where would instinctively use smaller and more controlled steering and pedals movements to get me to THERE, rather than putting in large steering and pedal inputs to control the car HERE.

The opposite, of course, is to look at the end of the bonnet, focusing on where the car is pointing...and surprise, surprise, you would tend to end up going there!

My control of and confidence in oversteer jumped several notches with this one piece of advice.

ShaunieVW

Exactly that, the hand will follow the eyes. I've often heard of people hitting stuff because they see it as a threat so look at it and hey ho they plough straight into it because the hands followed lol

Special Circumstances

Target fixation.

Same advice is given to people learning to mountain bike quickly over/through tricky stuff - look where you want to go, not where you don't. Keep staring at that rock/tree? You'll be meeting it shortly.

CiniO

ShaunieVW wrote: »

Exactly that, the hand will follow the eyes. I've often heard of people hitting stuff because they see it as a threat so look at it and hey ho they plough straight into it because the hands followed lol

That's very interesting argument, which I never though about.

jimgoose

CiniO wrote: »

That's very interesting argument, which I never though about.

Oh yeah, happens all the time in Two-Wheeled Land. "Target Fixation", as mentioned.

Neilw

Op, what condition are your tyres in, both front and rear, what brand?

H3llR4iser

StereoSound wrote: »

I span out today in the wet on a big roundabout and felt like abit of tool. Possibly oil contributed to the spin as the back end slid out like a knife through butter.
Front drivers wheel mounted onto the island but no damage so its all good. I was red faced as the other drivers must a been saying what the fook is that fella doing.

Can someone give me advice on what exactly to do when your car is sliding and out of control? I let go of the brakes and accelerator and tried to steer it straight but I still ended up almost 90 degrees before I gained control again. I got a little bit of a scare but I was more embarrassed then anything else to be honest.

I suppose its not unusual for someone to spinout on a big wet roundabout but for future reference I'd like to know what to do.

PS: I have 4 new Michelin tyres but I am gonna check my tyre pressure later to be sure they are all even.

Roundabouts can be extremely tricky - painted lines, different tarmac types/ages, spills of oil and diesel, combined with the constant cornering might catch you by surprise.

The reality of things is that while you have your hands on the wheel and your feet on the pedals, it's your arse you should actually be driving with

What I mean is that you need to get used at feeling all the little movements the car does beneath you and be a little bit ahead of them. I am sure you noticed that you had some strange feeling in your back and legs while the car was sliding (beside sheer terror ). That feeling actually started a split second before the rear axle began going its own way - learn to recognize it, and you'll be much more ready for the situation.

As for controlling oversteering, it gets slightly different if the car is an FWD or RWD.

The common part:
When you feel the rear is about to step out, start steering the opposite direction you were. So, if it's a left corner, start steering right. If you do it soon enough, by the time the slide started your front wheels will be almost straight and by steering further right you should be able to fine-tune the control, stopping the slide and resuming forward motion. This operation is called opposite lock or counter steering. Keep in mind that the car will effectively move diagonally for a short while, when you are counter steering - check the space around you!

Now, the differences: often, counter steering alone is not enough to bring the car back under control, and you need to use the accelerator.

On FWD cars, applying power will essentially "pull" the front towards wherever the wheels are turned; Countersteering and applying power at the same time will, therefore, reduce the pivoting the car is doing around the front axle, and help the rear axle gripping more by transferring some weight to it thanks to the 1st law of motion (e.g. "put the boot down").
Lifting off suddenly will have the opposite effect - take weight off the rear and transfer it forwards, applying more pivot and effectively causing the car to spin out of control. That's exactly the mistake you did.

On RWD cars, the accelerator needs to be applied carefully. What you want, in a nutshell, is to essentially balance out the car and bring the rear wheels to a rotational speed that is as close as possible to that of the road (hope I am making sense here!), in order to restore grip and transfer some weight to the back due to the acceleration.
A sudden lift off will have a similar, although less severe, derogatory effect it has on FWD cars.
Apply too much power, and you will spin the rear wheels more - preventing them from gaining grip back and sending you in a spin; Or even worse, triggering the pendulum effect: you slide, countersteer, apply a lot of power, rear wheels grip for a split second stopping the slide then slip again due to too much power and send you spinning the opposite direction. Possibly, the worst case scenario.

In any case, if opposite lock fails and you end up in a spin, there is one and one thing only to do: hit the brakes as hard as you can, and hope you don't hit anything!

Special Circumstances

H3llR4iser wrote: »

In any case, if opposite lock fails and you end up in a spin, there is one and one thing only to do: hit the brakes as hard as you can, and hope you don't hit anything!

You forgot the ultimate fallback...

CiniO

H3llR4iser wrote: »

The reality of things is that while you have your hands on the wheel and your feet on the pedals, it's your arse you should actually be driving with

What I mean is that you need to get used at feeling all the little movements the car does beneath you and be a little bit ahead of them. I am sure you noticed that you had some strange feeling in your back and legs while the car was sliding (beside sheer terror ). That feeling actually started a split second before the rear axle began going its own way - learn to recognize it, and you'll be much more ready for the situation.

As for controlling oversteering, it gets slightly different if the car is an FWD or RWD.

The common part:
When you feel the rear is about to step out, start steering the opposite direction you were. So, if it's a left corner, start steering right. If you do it soon enough, by the time the slide started your front wheels will be almost straight and by steering further right you should be able to fine-tune the control, stopping the slide and resuming forward motion. This operation is called opposite lock or counter steering. Keep in mind that the car will effectively move diagonally for a short while, when you are counter steering - check the space around you!

Now, the differences: often, counter steering alone is not enough to bring the car back under control, and you need to use the accelerator.

On FWD cars, applying power will essentially "pull" the front towards wherever the wheels are turned; Countersteering and applying power at the same time will, therefore, reduce the pivoting the car is doing around the front axle, and help the rear axle gripping more by transferring some weight to it thanks to the 3rd law of motion (e.g. "put the boot down").
Lifting off suddenly will have the opposite effect - take weight off the rear and transfer it forwards, applying more pivot and effectively causing the car to spin out of control. That's exactly the mistake you did.

On RWD cars, the accelerator needs to be applied carefully. What you want, in a nutshell, is to essentially balance out the car and bring the rear wheels to a rotational speed that is as close as possible to that of the road (hope I am making sense here!), in order to restore grip and transfer some weight to the back due to the acceleration.
A sudden lift off will have a similar, although less severe, derogatory effect it has on FWD cars.
Apply too much power, and you will spin the rear wheels more - preventing them from gaining grip back and sending you in a spin; Or even worse, triggering the pendulum effect: you slide, countersteer, apply a lot of power, rear wheels grip for a split second stopping the slide then slip again due to too much power and send you spinning the opposite direction. Possibly, the worst case scenario.

In any case, if opposite lock fails and you end up in a spin, there is one and one thing only to do: hit the brakes as hard as you can, and hope you don't hit anything!

Very nicely written...

punisher5112

Tyres could play a lot in these situations.

Are your tyres the correct psi.
Are there different types or threads on front/back either side.

Cheap chinese rubbish will definitely do what happened to you as similar happened me at low speed.

Also muck on the road or if it had been dry for a while or as said above possible diesel spill or other contaminent.

Also say there had been a spill back a while back the rain can cause this to re surface.

Jesus.

Get yourself a set of Landsails. Like driving on rails

slimjimmc

If there was a kerb on the island I reckon you'd have to be incredibly luck to escape completely unscathed. I suggest you have your tyres checked for damage by a reputable tyre centre as there could be damage which not noticeable to the untrained eye. Depending on how you mounted the island there could also be slight suspension/steering damage. You should have your car properly checked just in case.

punisher5112

Jesus. wrote: »

Get yourself a set of Landsails. Like driving on rails

Landsails eh.......

More like sails alright...

Wherever whenever you need to take off.

mickdw

H3llR4iser wrote: »

In any case, if opposite lock fails and you end up in a spin, there is one and one thing only to do: hit the brakes as hard as you can, and hope you don't hit anything!

You could always come off the brakes if you found yourself coming around to be nicely lined up facing the wrong way and then bring the car to safe controlled stop.

Craftylee

Had this happen to me recently - roundabout by GMIT in Galway (right near the diesel only garage). Was just about to take my exit, steered left and the car just kept going straight. Then the back of the car slid out like mad. I got a big smell of petrol/diesel in the car. So I pulled over at the next road thinking i had a leak. But it turned out it was just a leak on the roundabout - super dangerous imo.

Pretty scary for a new driver too!

noelf

PS: I have 4 new Michelin tyres but I am gonna check my tyre pressure later to be sure they are all even.[/QUOTE]

I think that may be the reason you had your moment new tyres need to bed in release agent used in tyre manufacture is the culprit ..

Cee-Jay-Cee

Front wheel drive: steer into the sky's but do not lift off accelerator but don't accelerate harder.

Rear wheel drive: steer into the skid and lift off accelerator to stop the rear wheels driving the car further into the skid.

All wheel drive: steer into the skid and lift off slightly but try and control the skid with the accelerator.

My car is AWD and I hit oil on a roundabout a few weeks ago. I wasn't sure what was happening at first but when I felt the rear of the car stepping out I steered into it and feathered the accelerator and managed to control it.

b318isp

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Rear wheel drive: steer into the skid and lift off accelerator to stop the rear wheels driving the car further into the skid.

This may be partly true for power induced oversteer, but for all other instances it would pretty much guarantee a spin.

Cee-Jay-Cee

b318isp wrote: »

This may be partly true for power induced oversteer, but for all other instances it would pretty much guarantee a spin.

I'll take your word for that as I have only ever spun a RWD car in anger and so was trying to get the back end out.

visual

OP what tyres have you go on that car ?

On two previous cars I bought they had Chinese rubbish on them and they slide just as you described in wet.
Fitting good quality tyres makes a world of a difference.

Special Circumstances

In the first post - 4 michelins

Dutchie

In my expert opinion always apply full lock and full power

jimgoose

Dutchie wrote: »

In my expert opinion always apply full lock and full power...

Outstanding. From the file labeled "Keep the shoe in, hi!!" :pac:

H3llR4iser

Dutchie wrote: »

In my expert opinion always apply full lock and full power

That's how you bring a FWD back under control...saw Giovanardi pull a very similar one in the 156 at Hungaroring, many eons ago

Renegade Mechanic

Expertly written post, H3llR4iser. I found myself in a similar, but luckier situation on a roundabout, on which I was aiming for the third exit. Laguna with a dead beam rear axle. Whatever was on that roundabout, it simply would not come back for me. First thing I felt, as you say was that strange feeling in my arse and up my spine. Speed and angle were nice and low so acellerator was about half held. Oddly enough the first thing i remember focusing on was the second exit as it was close enough to me to make it without either spinning out or going off. I looked looked like some pratt to the lad who was rolling up to the second exit. I can still see his stare of derison

Incidentally, in wet weather It always felt... on tge edge, like you were about to lose it any second, on any bend, regardless of how safely you were driving, but all joints were tight. After a week, (I'd only bought it) It turned out the rear tyres were about 7 years old, despite a lack of perishing and reasonable thread dept. New rubber made an unholy difference.

Special Circumstances

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Incidentally, in wet weather It always felt... on tge edge, like you were about to lose it any second, on any bend, regardless of how safely you were driving, but all joints were tight. After a week, (I'd only bought it) It turned out the rear tyres were about 7 years old, despite a lack of perishing and reasonable thread dept. New rubber made an unholy difference.

When herself got a MINI first, the original rear tyres were still on it, about 6 or 7 years old. Made themselves known with liftoff oversteer on damp roundabouts. Great craic when you intentionally did it but couldn't be left that way -they were gone very hard and non grippy. Steering is nice and quick on them at least - easy to correct.

b318isp

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Or even worse, triggering the pendulum effect: you slide, countersteer, apply a lot of power, rear wheels grip for a split second stopping the slide then slip again due to too much power and send you spinning the opposite direction.

Just on a point of detail, the pendulum effect is difficult to predict.

It may be that a change in power causes a weight transfer, or a change in steering causes a change in roll angle, or even a change in road surface causes a sudden return grip to the spinning wheel.

Opposite lock also has to wound off progressively as the car straightens out as it will destabilise the car again as the pendulum effect swings the other way.

Here's a very old video of me getting a fishtail as I came off the gas a bit too much (note, LSD fitted):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7ba0vbfang

kona

What condition is the suspension in? Have you changed shocks or anything ?