Would you say its unfair?

devil420

Hi all,

So I am working in my current job for last 1.5 years meaning I am on a permanent contract. I have been noticing that the management have been trying to get me somehow. The job where I work sell electronics , due to which I have developed a habit of buying new tech every week or two and selling it on the likes of Adverts/Donedeal when I am done with it. Recently I got an email saying this is a breach of my contract as I am doing the same thing as the company, selling electronics. Now I do this in my own spare time and not during the company time.

Secondly I recently attended an interview for a better position in a competitor store, I was honest about it to my current employer and told them that I did attend the interview. Again this was in my own time. I didnt call in sick or went home early to accommodate the interview.

So after a couple of days I heard from the management that it was also breach of my contract due to confidentiality reasons. The thing is the competitor is in the same business and obviously asked me where I work and what I do at my present job. I did tell them about it and made sure that I did not mention anything about my current employer that is NOT in the public domain.

There have been several HR issues with us not getting payslips on time. We just got payslips for December two weeks back despite asking for them every week. I was getting the feeling that they are not happy that I keep asking for these.

We were recently asked to give customer feedback to the management and when we did we got a reply saying that we are being negative all the time.

We are constantly under pressure and every single staff member in the particular branch is going to a stressful phase, with all of us suffering from depression due to the work environment.

So these reasons and the current atmosphere in work is leading me to believe that they might let me go soon due to one of the above reasons.

So my question is , would any of the above would be a fair reasons/dismissal?

Thank You.

Nody

Well point 1 would be a fair point in most companies; it does not matter if you do it on your spare time you are in effect competing over sales with the company. It may be seen as petty but most contracts have clauses about stuff like this (i.e. you can't set up a competing business etc.).

The second point was you simply being stupid to be honest; you should never say that you'd gone for an interview let alone to a competitor. Not only is it none of their business you're also setting yourself up for accusations such as sharing confidential information (and since you did not have a recorded meeting you can claim you said what ever but they will never know).

As for fire you it would be down to policy but I'd guess first one would require warning first which you've gotten so yes I'd say they could possibly nail you on that if you sold it again and they had proof of it being more than one or two pieces a year )i.e. normal volume rather then every week). Second one is trickier; they can't prove what you said and honestly it would be down to your contract and policy details in the end but it's something that can be added in to show with the first point that you are not loyal to the company.

devil420

Nody wrote: »

Well point 1 would be a fair point in most companies; it does not matter if you do it on your spare time you are in effect competing over sales with the company. It may be seen as petty but most contracts have clauses about stuff like this (i.e. you can't set up a competing business etc.).

The second point was you simply being stupid to be honest; you should never say that you'd gone for an interview let alone to a competitor. Not only is it none of their business you're also setting yourself up for accusations such as sharing confidential information (and since you did not have a recorded meeting you can claim you said what ever but they will never know).

As for fire you it would be down to policy but I'd guess first one would require warning first which you've gotten so yes I'd say they could possibly nail you on that if you sold it again and they had proof of it being more than one or two pieces a year )i.e. normal volume rather then every week). Second one is trickier; they can't prove what you said and honestly it would be down to your contract and policy details in the end but it's something that can be added in to show with the first point that you are not loyal to the company.

Thanks for the reply.

However I am not competing with business. I am basically selling my electronics online when I get a new one. I am sure alot of people do that. Also a notice which was sent to the shop recently said you can do anything in your spare time.Also I am not doing it for financial gain. Its simply like a phone came out this week, I went to carrier and bought it on prepay. Another phone comes out next week I do the same. Obviously I have to sell my previous one.

I did not get a written warning for anything. It was just verbal. I am pretty sure they haceto give a written warning? They never did.

suchafunkymonke

Your Management have no idea what they are talking about.

Does your shop sell used electronic goods? Are you buying in large numbers with the intention of resale at profit? Are you selling your items on at a profit or a loss?

As for the interview, the "confidentiality clause" is complete rubbish. It would be expected for you not to divulge any corporate or strategic information, but they cannot prevent you from interviewing for another role or answering reasonable questions relating to the nature of you work experience.

Ignore them. They have do not have this power over you.

devil420

suchafunkymonke wrote: »

Your Management have no idea what they are talking about.

Does your shop sell used electronic goods? Are you buying in large numbers with the intention of resale at profit? Are you selling your items on at a profit or a loss?

As for the interview, the "confidentiality clause" is complete rubbish. It would be expected for you not to divulge any corporate or strategic information, but they cannot prevent you from interviewing for another role or answering reasonable questions relating to the nature of you work experience.

Ignore them. They have do not have this power over you.

Yes it does sell used electronics. I am basically buying a new phone every week or so and selling my old one at a loss. As I buy new phone straight from the carrier I am with on prepay, there is no way I can get more than what the phones retail for new.So all the items I am selling are at a loss. I just like having the latest phone out.

On the interview, as I mentioned I only told them what is in the public domain and what they already knew. They just asked me a few questions as to what I do day to day and explain how your previous experience would help the new employer. I did not mention anything that would affect the company in any way.

One eyed Jack

On the first point alone, you could be dismissed from the company by your employers. You're effectively diminishing their potential sales as the vast majority of these electronics stores make their profits on upsells. You may not see it that way, but how you see it is irrelevant to your continued employment. What matters is that your employers obviously take a dim view of your actions.

As for the rest of your post, it sounds like morale is low in the company and both the employer and the employees are at fault for this. It's easier for your employers to dismiss you for incompetence, than it is for you to prove your employers were negligent.

Quite frankly, you're making things hard for yourself IMO.

the_syco

devil420 wrote: »

The job where I work sell electronics , due to which I have developed a habit of buying new tech every week or two and selling it on the likes of Adverts/Donedeal when I am done with it. Recently I got an email saying this is a breach of my contract as I am doing the same thing as the company, selling electronics.

Have any mates that don't have any ties to your company? Perhaps sell it through them?

devil420 wrote: »

Secondly I recently attended an interview for a better position in a competitor store, I was honest about it to my current employer and told them that I did attend the interview.

This is what is called as "shooting yourself in the foot". You don't tell the employer that you're looking for a job elsewhere, as this limits chance of promotion; you don't promote someone that you know is looking to leave.

bpmurray

One eyed Jack wrote: »

On the first point alone, you could be dismissed from the company by your employers.

Rubbish - it's not competition but simple normal consumer behaviour.

Your company is definitely 100% in the wrong: you cannot be accused of breaching confidentiality just for attending an interview, and the competition clause only applies if you are in a position where you have inside information on the strategies of the company, and even then it is extraordinarily difficult to enforce.

If they actually fired you, you would win an unfair dismissal case hands down.

IlmoNT4

I just think your making life harder for yourself OP than it needs to be.

Whats more important to you, a pay check coming in or selling on used electronics at a loss. ?

Exactly how much are you selling on. You are either selling them at some volume for anyone to notice or else your telling them..I suspect the latter. There is a conflict of interest if your company is selling electronics and your selling electronic. May I take a guess that you are buying these electronics from your company, with an employee discount perhaps? And then flipping them? Either way, when you signed an employment contract there was probably a clause in it about this situation and you are probably in breech of your contract terms.

I dont understand why you want to flip electronics at a loss. To tell the truth - I just like the latest and greatest- doesnt sound convincing to me. Especially if you could lose your job over it. And if you are flipping a large volume for a profit, knock it on the head.

Re the interview. Heres some advice about the world of work, work is unfair, but you need the pay check more than they need you, so do yourself a favor, dont tell anyone, anything ever when you are interviewing for a new job OP. You do this on the quiet. If you need time off for the interview, book a half day or whatever. Your just attracting negative attention towards yourself. This applies to this job and any other job you may have. You might want to cop yourself on and stop telling everyone your business.

I'm sorry to say this OP but you come across as very young or very naive.

One eyed Jack

bpmurray wrote: »

Rubbish - it's not competition but simple normal consumer behaviour.

Your company is definitely 100% in the wrong: you cannot be accused of breaching confidentiality just for attending an interview, and the competition clause only applies if you are in a position where you have inside information on the strategies of the company, and even then it is extraordinarily difficult to enforce.

If they actually fired you, you would win an unfair dismissal case hands down.

It would be normal consumer behaviour if the OP wasn't an employee of the company. But for now, they are. If they are employed by another competitor, then they can buy all the electronics they want in their previous employers store and sell them online then.

evolving_doors

Just to be clear.... the stuff you are selling on, are you buying it through your employer?

Your employer sells used electronics, do you sell on the exact same used electronics. Or is it like your employer sells used printers but you sell used phones!

IlmoNT4

The sad fact is OP, lots of people huff and puff and say they'll bring unfair dismissal cases etc and often they have a case and probably would win them but they dont have the cash to bring such a case to court and thats the big issue. Unfair dismissal cases can be lengthy and costly, so you'd want to be earning some decent cash before heading into court for loss of earning otherwise its not worth it. Sure the law can be on your side but paying for the law is another matter.

devil420

Guys I am not buying the stuff from my employer. As I said I buying from phone carriers. I am with Three so buy it from them on prepay and then sell it on after I get a new one. I am not making a profit. I am making a loss but its just an addiction. I dont drink , go out or smoke so this is where my money goes.

Uncle Ben

loulou2009 wrote: »

The sad fact is OP, lots of people huff and puff and say they'll bring unfair dismissal cases etc and often they have a case and probably would win them but they dont have the cash to bring such a case to court and thats the big issue. Unfair dismissal cases can be lengthy and costly, so you'd want to be earning some decent cash before heading into court for loss of earning otherwise its not worth it. Sure the law can be on your side but paying for the law is another matter.

I don't reckon the op is in a union going by his post, however that should not deter him from proceeding with a case IF he has one to answer.
Unfair dismissal cases can be as costly or as cheap as one can afford. The op will present his case to a rep.from the employers side, the employees side and a chairperson.
On first impressions it would appear that both the op and the employer appear to be unaware of both their obligations and I would hazard a guess, considering they've only received payslips now after almost 18 months that possibly no contract of employment actually exists and if it does its probably flawed.
As in criminal and civil law, employment legislation also relies heavily on procedures.
If I were the op I would invest a few euro in a diary and start taking notes. If not in a union I would be making contact with family, friends and NERA and seeking advice and I'd also consult the Labour Court website and read some of the actual cases.
In my own opinion I think the op is being foolish. If I had a garage servicing cars and my apprentice started servicing cars on his own time and undercutting me I wouldn't be happy either. Could I sack him for doing this? I don't really think so unless it was in the t & c of his employment.

evolving_doors

Edit: OP cleared up stuff I missed

Dog of Tears

Are you working for Big Brother or something?

How do your company know so much about stuff you do in your own spare time?

Uncle Ben

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Arent there any no-win-no-fee solicitors in Ireland?

Anyhow I think if the stuf he's selling on on a regular basis is a bit shakey if he's getting them from his employers. They possibly pay all the setup costs/importation costs/tax/light/heating and the OP flogs it on adverts. Maybe this isnt the case but theres something missing from the OP's story (unless ive missed it).

If those customers of the OP could get the same product off his employer then is that not competition, conflict of interest?

For now the op does not need the services of a solicitor. If they get in touch with citizens advice or go on workplace relations. ie. all the initial help and advice is there

One eyed Jack

devil420 wrote: »

Guys I am not buying the stuff from my employer. As I said I buying from phone carriers. I am with Three so buy it from them on prepay and then sell it on after I get a new one. I am not making a profit. I am making a loss but its just an addiction. I dont drink , go out or smoke so this is where my money goes.

Well that's a bit more specific than the impression you gave in your opening post that you were indeed purchasing electronics from your employer (I understood from this that you would also be getting a staff discount) -

devil420 wrote: »

So I am working in my current job for last 1.5 years meaning I am on a permanent contract. I have been noticing that the management have been trying to get me somehow. The job where I work sell electronics , due to which I have developed a habit of buying new tech every week or two and selling it on the likes of Adverts/Donedeal when I am done with it. Recently I got an email saying this is a breach of my contract as I am doing the same thing as the company, selling electronics. Now I do this in my own spare time and not during the company time.

But if you are buying electronic devices elsewhere, and then selling them on in your own time, your employer is stretching for a justification, but it would depend on your conditions of employment as to whether they actually had a justifiable argument that you were engaged in a conflict of interest.

If you're buying your devices from a Three store, that's a different issue from buying your devices from your place of employment. If you're buying them from your place of employment, then your contract of sale is with your place of employment, and not Three.

Irish_Elect_Eng

The big point for me would be the the OP was doing it on company time. If that was a repeated behavior, selling for himself not them during company time, it would be a slam dunk dismissal.

The interview thing was just very silly.

Seek help for depression. Get a new job if is work related. Life is too short.

evolving_doors

Irish_Elect_Eng wrote: »

The big point for me would be the the OP was doing it on company time. If that was a repeated behavior, selling for himself not them during company time, it would be a slam dunk dismissal.

The interview thing was just very silly.

Seek help for depression. Get a new job if is work related. Life is too short.

OP says he's doing it on his own time.

Seriously though OP a new phone every week or two is a bit of an expensive habit (although if you have no other outgoings and you're into technology then you could be doing worse in this country). You probably have built up a good technical knowledge of whatever it is you buy and sell, maybe it's time to start trying to make it pay in some way.

I'd say just start to look for a new job or up-skill if you can. If the staff in that place are all suffering from depression then you need a change of scene.

devil420

Gebgbegb wrote: »

OP says he's doing it on his own time.

Seriously though OP a new phone every week or two is a bit of an expensive habit (although if you have no other outgoings and you're into technology then you could be doing worse in this country). You probably have built up a good technical knowledge of whatever it is you buy and sell, maybe it's time to start trying to make it pay in some way.

I'd say just start to look for a new job or up-skill if you can. If the staff in that place are all suffering from depression then you need a change of scene.

Correct I have no other expenses. I am into Tech thats why I buy new phones. I have built up great product knowledge and even my current employer acknowledges that fact. I just done know how to use this to take a step forward.

devil420

Also in regards to the interview, both places are at same location so I decided to be honest about it, I thought it would be better than taking a day off by calling in sick etc and get caught. I did the interview in my own time and not company's time.

I sell the stuff in my own time. I do NOT buy it from my employer.I do NOT do it for financial gain. I make a LOSS on what I sell. I am NOT trying to make money. Even if I tried it would be impossible as no one is going to give me more money for a used item when the buy it new cheaper from a shop.

In regards to how my employer knows: They see I have new phone every week or two and then ask where my old one went and I tell them I sold that to get a new one. Infact they are the ones that ask me about it ,, I dont go up to them and tell them. Even after the interview I was asked what they asked me.

Also I am not the only one in the company who sells stuff outside of work. One of them even has his side company. Others also sell their old stuff online like me.

I believe it would a unfair dismissal. Recently I raised serious racism concerns and the employer agreed that yes it was clear Racism but nothing was done about it. Its been months. That is a much bigger reason to fire someone but they never did .

3rdDegree

If you want to buy and sell stuff on your own time because that is your hobby, it's none of your employer's business. It's not like a phone every week or so is retail volume.

I wouldn't have told them about the interview, but now that you have, it's done and can't be helped. They certainly can't dismiss you for that.

Letting you go for the above two reasons alone would certainly be unfair dismissal. But keep a diary like someone here suggested.

Mrs OBumble

It doesn't matter where you get the stuff, or whose time you are on when you sell it.

You are regularly trading in the same types of things that your employer sells. If you are selling at a loss, then possibly you are undercutting them - so a potential customer may by from you privately rather than buy from your employer.

Operating a competing business to your employer, or even having an interest in one (the "get a mate to sell the stuff for you" scenario) is banned in pretty much every employment contract ever written. It is enough to get you sacked from most jobs.

the_syco

OP; does your employer sell the same model of phones as the ones that you are selling?

bpmurray

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

It doesn't matter where you get the stuff, or whose time you are on when you sell it.

You are regularly trading in the same types of things that your employer sells. If you are selling at a loss, then possibly you are undercutting them - so a potential customer may by from you privately rather than buy from your employer.

Operating a competing business to your employer, or even having an interest in one (the "get a mate to sell the stuff for you" scenario) is banned in pretty much every employment contract ever written. It is enough to get you sacked from most jobs.

That is incorrect: unless the OP is running a business competing with his employer, it's normal consumer behaviour and cannot be considered a conflict of interest. And it certainly cannot under any circumstances be considered grounds for dismissal.

antoinolachtnai

He isn't in competition. He isn't trading phones. He is buying phones and using them for a while and selling them on at a loss.It is not a business, it is an activity from which the OP can't possibly make a profit. If you want to thrill yourselves with thoughts on what is and isn't an 'undertaking' to use the EU jargon, worth reading http://www.law.cam.ac.uk/faculty-resources/10007305.pdf

The OP is entitled to make a living and entitled to apply for jobs and do interviews with competitors. Even if the OP had a fancy-pants no-compete clause in his contract (which I doubt) there would still be a lot of limits on how effective it would be (see http://www.hrpgroup.ie/non-complete-clauses/)

I think the OP should just go and get a new job.

BizzyC

It doesn't matter if he's running a profitable business or not, he's making phones available for people to purchase from him instead of his employer.
The issue isn't any money he is/isn't making, it's the loss of potential revenue for the employer that he's introduced.

If you go and get another job at another shop that sells tech and continue this behavior you'll run into similar issues.

keysersoze0330

1. What you do with old phones is nobody's business. No need to tell anybody where your old phones are. Say you gave them away to family.
2. Look for a new job. Life's too short.
3. Keep your business to yourself. Seems everyone has an unhealthy amount of information on your movements. Keep a certain amount of privacy about yourself

Mrs OBumble

BizzyC wrote: »

It doesn't matter if he's running a profitable business or not, he's making phones available for people to purchase from him instead of his employer.
The issue isn't any money he is/isn't making, it's the loss of potential revenue for the employer that he's introduced.

If you go and get another job at another shop that sells tech and continue this behavior you'll run into similar issues.

This + lots.

You don't have to set up an enterprise to be "in business" - sole-trading, even at a loss, is enough.

And frankly, buying and selling a phone a week is nowhere near normal consumer behaviour. Even the OP knows this.

antoinolachtnai

If a person is making sustained losses from an activity and plans to continue to do so, he or she is not really in business. The revenue will not treat it as being entitled to make deductions. The European Commission and the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission will not bind you to competition law. The OP also has extremely limited stock (one phone) and is really selling assets, not trading stock. It isn't a business in any sense.

evolving_doors

Id say whats irking them is the fact that you are buying phones elsewhere. Also people would probably raise an eyebrow if they see a new phone every week and the usual begrudgibg whispering starts "where does he get them? I bet theyre stolen, I bet he's a drug dealer etc."


Maybe be a bit more upfront about your hobby with a new employer (tell them you get them second hand/refurbs maybe, and not new!).

It is a bit of an expensive addiction though, although ive seen people throw away hundreds on booze every week and nobody bats an eyelid. You really should channel that experience/knowledge into doing reviews or contributing to a forum or something. Being able to predict trends and fashions in phones I would think is a valuable asset for sales!

MarkAnthony

The terms of the OPs contract will be the terms of the OPs contract. Restraint of trade clauses are rarely upheld but it does happen.

I'm not aware of any case law testing the terms of a non complete clause - I would expect companies to be given a lot of latitude on that though, especially if they have repeatedly warned the employee. I'm happy to be corrected with linked articles, case law or EAT decisions, otherwise one is just guessing - as am I - and the OP would be a fool to rely on such a guess.