competition query

limos

Hi All

Played in our first monthly medal last week in Ratcore, on Saturday there wasn't much rain so bunkers were in play, however on Saturday night there was heavy rain and bunkers filled with water.
One of the comitee members was out first Sunday and rang the pro shop and told them to put bunkers out of play which the guy in the pro shop did and told everyone the same.

This means that the members played a different course on Sunday than the ones on Saturday which I think the competition has to be void as it's the same comp over the two days.

What's everyone's views on this and what would the rule be.


Thanks

SevesThreeIron

limos wrote: »

Hi All

Played in our first monthly medal last week in Ratcore, on Saturday there wasn't much rain so bunkers were in play, however on Saturday night there was heavy rain and bunkers filled with water.
One of the comitee members was out first Sunday and rang the pro shop and told them to put bunkers out of play which the guy in the pro shop did and told everyone the same.

This means that the members played a different course on Sunday than the ones on Saturday which I think the competition has to be void as it's the same comp over the two days.

What's everyone's views on this and what would the rule be.


Thanks

Never heard of a monthly medal being played over two different days. That's pretty strange in itself. I wouldn't fancy that at all.

On the two different courses issue I'd say technically you're correct. Rathcore is a soggy enough spot though so Im guessing full 'play it as lies' generally wasn't back in anyway? If that's the case and it's still placing on fairways and dropping in rough then it might give leeway to take bunkers in and out of play too.

slave1

Two days in itself is questionable, would need to be separate CSS calcs etc.

rocky911

Always under the impression that medal could be played over 1 day only. that like everyone said it is strange enough that it is being played over two days!

Technically anyone that played on the Saturdays score would be void no? Also there could be no change to h/c's if I am right as you are playing say in "winter" rules with bunkers out?..I hope someone can clarify this.

SaveOurLyric

Nothing wrong with it at all. As far as the rules are concerned.

Effectively its two competitions from a CSS and handicap adjustment aspect, but the competition committee decides to deem the 'winner' whoever has the best score from the two days. And thats their call - they are the law. Nothing in the rules against it.

Quite a few clubs do it. The argument is the weather can change an be unfair on one day or the other. But weather changes from morning to evening, and we accept the luck on that one. Bunkers in/out of play is pushing it a bit further, and probably wasnt even the pros call. But on balance, probably fairer than penalising those whose balls ended up in water in bunkers.

slave1

There are rules covering water logged bunkers, can't say I've seen a bunker 100% filled with water! even in bad cases there should be available place to drop within the bunker, if not them there's another problem i.e. bunkers need attention

thoscon

The member that rang back in told the lad in the pro shop that the bunker was flooded and the lad in the shop made the call not the member.
Medals are run over 2 days to give all members a chance to play them, some members can only play Saturdays.
Also the timesheet was mental when it was one day and it was hard to get an early time and with the course been so busy it was very slow
Two days gives everyone a chance to play the medal and also it's easier to get a time you want
CSS is calculated for each day

rocky911

thoscon wrote: »

The member that rang back in told the lad in the pro shop that the bunker was flooded and the lad in the shop made the call not the member.
Medals are run over 2 days to give all members a chance to play them, some members can only play Saturdays.
Also the timesheet was mental when it was one day and it was hard to get an early time and with the course been so busy it was very slow
Two days gives everyone a chance to play the medal and also it's easier to get a time you want
CSS is calculated for each day

Cheers for that Feedback, it was brought up at our AGM this year and was shot down by the commitee about the medal being played over two days due to possible differences between the course, may I ask the course isnt touched then on the Sat and Sunday correct?

thoscon

rocky911 wrote: »

Cheers for that Feedback, it was brought up at our AGM this year and was shot down by the commitee about the medal being played over two days due to possible differences between the course, may I ask the course isnt touched then on the Sat and Sunday correct?

Yes the flags are kept the same..
Lke I said most are happy with the decision. We had a few against it because of the possible different weather conditions on the 2 days but as another poster said you can go out on a morning and it's lovely and sunny and in the afternoon it can be wet and windy .

I remember when it was a one day medal and id be ready on the phone waiting to pounce the minute the timesheet opened and if I refreshed the page at the wrong time it could mean instead of 8.30 I could end up at 9.00 tee off, Nothing like that now

Russman

thoscon wrote: »

Yes the flags are kept the same..
Lke I said most are happy with the decision. We had a few against it because of the possible different weather conditions on the 2 days but as another poster said you can go out on a morning and it's lovely and sunny and in the afternoon it can be wet and windy .

I remember when it was a one day medal and id be ready on the phone waiting to pounce the minute the timesheet opened and if I refreshed the page at the wrong time it could mean instead of 8.30 I could end up at 9.00 tee off, Nothing like that now

What if someone wants to play golf on both days at the weekend ? Is it a case of just basically tough t1tty ? Genuinely curious as I know a lot of clubs are going this route and I couldn't ever join somewhere where you could only play one day at weekends.

thoscon

Russman wrote: »

What if someone wants to play golf on both days at the weekend ? Is it a case of just basically tough t1tty ? Genuinely curious as I know a lot of clubs are going this route and I couldn't ever join somewhere where you could only play one day at weekends.

Play the medal Saturday and play casual golf Sunday if there's a slot available

rocky911

Russman wrote: »

What if someone wants to play golf on both days at the weekend ? Is it a case of just basically tough t1tty ? Genuinely curious as I know a lot of clubs are going this route and I couldn't ever join somewhere where you could only play one day at weekends.

Surely your first round is your competitive round? We had a system in our Winter League where your first round score of the weekend counted so if you shot 28 on Friday and 45 on Sunday, the 28 would be counted for the league not the 28 but we also ran a comp each day aside. With a medal only being once a month, surely wouldnt bother ya too much not to play 1 competitive round?

princess poppy

Russman wrote: »

What if someone wants to play golf on both days at the weekend ? Is it a case of just basically tough t1tty ? Genuinely curious as I know a lot of clubs are going this route and I couldn't ever join somewhere where you could only play one day at weekends.

Your first round would have to be the competitive round as you can't practice the course for a strokes competition

Uncle Ben

I'm almost certain that a competition could be qualifying even with bunkers out of play so long as no more than 50% are out of commission. Identified as GUR. I am of course open to correction.

thoscon

Uncle Ben wrote: »

I'm almost certain that a competition could be qualifying even with bunkers out of play so long as no more than 50% are out of commission. Identified as GUR. I am of course open to correction.

I think it's only 10% can be out of play but I could be wrong

Uncle Ben

thoscon wrote: »

I think it's only 10% can be out of play but I could be wrong

Like you I believe there is a certain % that allows play. Not sure exactly how much though.

PARlance

thoscon wrote: »

I think it's only 10% can be out of play but I could be wrong

Happened me last year. Lost out on a cut to it. Nearly sure they said 20% but not sure either.

limos

Any club that I was a member in the greens keeper would walk and check the course first thing in the morning, gur signs could have been placed in the flooded bunkers which was only 5 or 6 max.

The members that played Sunday had a clear advantage as bunkers weren't in play, on top of all this you had groups saying to each other across fairways and on tee boxes that competition wouldn't stand.

I don't know what's happening at the minute about it as we still haven't had a result, the committee contacted the gui for advice because they didn't know what to do about the situation and are awaiting to hear back.

As regards playing medals on both days your allowed practice on Saturday evening as long as you play of green tees and not whites.

paulos53

This decision on the rules is the closest I could find to your situation and states that the committee can declare areas as GUR in the middle of the competition

33-2a/2 Declaring Area as Ground Under Repair During Competition Round

Q. A's ball is in a poor lie in a washed-out area which warrants being marked as ground under repair but is not so marked. He declares the ball unplayable and proceeds under Rule 28, incurring a one-stroke penalty.
Subsequently, in the same competition round, B's ball is in the same area. B requests the Committee to declare the area ground under repair. Would the Committee be justified in declaring the area ground under repair in such circumstances?

A. Yes; this applies in either match or stroke play. However, it is preferable that all areas which warrant marking as ground under repair should be so marked before the start of a competition.

the lawman

SevesThreeIron wrote: »

Rathcore is a soggy enough spot.

I'm a member there 3 years and this comment is not correct to my mind. The only time that the course is soggy is after a day or two of heavy rain, just like any course.

You may have played it on one of those days but having the benefit of playing it week in week out through all seasons 'soggy' is the last comment I would make about it.

Back to the topic, I played the medal on the Saturday where the bunkers were in play and that was the right call as they weren't that bad. The call that was made on the Sunday was not made by a committee member or greenkeeper so the call was invalid. I would imagine this is what the GUI will say too.

thoscon

PARlance wrote: »

Happened me last year. Lost out on a cut to it. Nearly sure they said 20% but not sure either.

It's defo 10%

First Up

the lawman wrote: »

I'm a member there 3 years and this comment is not correct to my mind. The only time that the course is soggy is after a day or two of heavy rain, just like any course.

You may have played it on one of those days but having the benefit of playing it week in week out through all seasons 'soggy' is the last comment I would make about it.

Back to the topic, I played the medal on the Saturday where the bunkers were in play and that was the right call as they weren't that bad. The call that was made on the Sunday was not made by a committee member or greenkeeper so the call was invalid. I would imagine this is what the GUI will say too.

Some courses drain better than others. In my experience Rathcore takes longer to recover than quite a few I could mention..

the lawman

First Up wrote: »

Some courses drain better than others. In my experience Rathcore takes longer to recover than quite a few I could mention..

I've played the course for 3 years through all conditions and I couldn't disagree more. It never closes for rain so it's the last comment I'd make about it.

limos

There was a sign stating all bunkers were out of play on the sign in book in the shop , we were also told by member of staff who employs the green keeper that all bunkers were out of play which we played to this ruling, the point is we played a different course than the guys on Saturday which I think is wrong.

the lawman

I could be wrong but I believe the decision has to be from a greenkeeper or a member of the committee. The guy in the shop making the call is neither. Best thing to do is wait for the GUI ruling on it, at least then we know it will be fair.

First Up

limos wrote: »

There was a sign stating all bunkers were out of play on the sign in book in the shop , we were also told by member of staff who employs the green keeper that all bunkers were out of play which we played to this ruling, the point is we played a different course than the guys on Saturday which I think is wrong.

Was the Saturday round Qualifying (for handicaps)?

limos

None of the rounds were qualifying, it's not the players fault on Sunday that they played without the bunkers in play. I believe a committee member rang back from the course influencing the discision that was made .

First Up

limos wrote: »

None of the rounds were qualifying, it's not the players fault on Sunday that they played without the bunkers in play. I believe a committee member rang back from the course influencing the discision that was made .

So you were placing in the rough?

the lawman

First Up wrote: »

Was the Saturday round Qualifying (for handicaps)?

Non Qualifying both days.

Edit: Sorry just saw Limo reply

the lawman

First Up wrote: »

So you were placing in the rough?

Placing everywhere yes.

First Up

the lawman wrote: »

Placing everywhere yes.

The people who played on Saturday might be feeling hard done by (having to play from bunkers) but with placing everywhere, it was already a compromised event so the committee might be able to justify it.

Not ideal though - running it as two competitions would be fairer.

the lawman

limos wrote: »

None of the rounds were qualifying, it's not the players fault on Sunday that they played without the bunkers in play. I believe a committee member rang back from the course influencing the discision that was made .

I played on the Saturday and yeah it's pretty annoying but I think an error was made by one person that has caused all of this. Errors happen so sometimes you just have to accept it.

The GUI will make the call as per the rules so I'll wait until then to see final outcome.

SevesThreeIron

the lawman wrote: »

I'm a member there 3 years and this comment is not correct to my mind. The only time that the course is soggy is after a day or two of heavy rain, just like any course.

You may have played it on one of those days but having the benefit of playing it week in week out through all seasons 'soggy' is the last comment I would make about it.

Back to the topic, I played the medal on the Saturday where the bunkers were in play and that was the right call as they weren't that bad. The call that was made on the Sunday was not made by a committee member or greenkeeper so the call was invalid. I would imagine this is what the GUI will say too.

Playing there a long time myself too, since it opened, and regularly. All I can say is that's my experience of the place, soggy compared to others until the high season. I've squelched on the first fairway plenty of times, the 8th and the 18th.

I considered joining a few times though that was one of the things that put me off. Aside from that, I love the place. We even had a look at one of the show houses there when moving house but the place is just a bit remote to live. Anyway, it's one of the few negative comments I'd make about Rathcore, it's a place I always love to play.

the lawman

SevesThreeIron wrote: »

Playing there a long time myself too, since it opened, and regularly. All I can say is that's my experience of the place, soggy compared to others until the high season. I've squelched on the first fairway plenty of times, the 8th and the 18th.

I considered joining a few times though that was one of the things that put me off. Aside from that, I love the place. We even had a look at one of the show houses there when moving house but the place is just a bit remote to live. Anyway, it's one of the few negative comments I'd make about Rathcore, it's a place I always love to play.

Those holes at certain spots would be the last to drain fully after very heavy rain I'd agree with that but, and I'm being 100% honest here, I find the course to be much firmer than most of the course I would play outside of it.

I've never once seen it closed from water-logging after being there 3 years. Not looking to blindly defend my course at all just genuinely surprised at the comment! It's all subjective though so fair enough.

First Up

the lawman wrote: »

Those holes at certain spots would be the last to drain fully after very heavy rain I'd agree with that but, and I'm being 100% honest here, I find the course to be much firmer than most of the course I would play outside of it.

I've never once seen it closed from water-logging after being there 3 years. Not looking to blindly defend my course at all just genuinely surprised at the comment! It's all subjective though so fair enough.

I don't know the other courses you would play outside of Rathcore that you are comparing it to but I can assure you there are plenty that drain better. I also like Rathcore but for me its a summer course.

the lawman

First Up wrote: »

I don't know the other courses you would play outside of Rathcore that you are comparing it to but I can assure you there are plenty that drain better. I also like Rathcore but for me its a summer course.

I can assure you that you are incorrect. Seeing as I have 3 years playing the course through all weather conditions I am far better placed to make the call. There are many courses that I would consider soggy but I'd never have the disrespect to have an argument about it here.

It is curious however why you continue this argument even after the logical end occurred some posts ago.

First Up

the lawman wrote: »

I can assure you that you are incorrect. Seeing as I have 3 years playing the course through all weather conditions I am far better placed to make the call. There are many courses that I would consider soggy but I'd never have the disrespect to have an argument about it here.

It is curious however why you continue this argument even after the logical end occurred some posts ago.

Maybe because you are contradicting yourself!

the lawman

First Up wrote: »

Maybe because you are contradicting yourself!

In what way?

First Up

the lawman wrote: »

In what way?

You have said the course gets soggy after rain. You agreed with another poster about which parts don't drain well. But you say I am completely incorrect in saying the same thing.

I said that it doesn't drain as well as many other courses. In response you say you know courses that drain worse, which is not a rebuttal of what I said.

the lawman

First Up wrote: »

You have said the course gets soggy after rain. You agreed with another poster about which parts don't drain well. But you say I am completely incorrect in saying the same thing.

I said that it doesn't drain as well as many other courses. In response you say you know courses that drain worse, which is not a rebuttal of what I said.

Incredible.

I agreed that after a day of heavy rain there are is a few areas that drain slower than 98% of the course.

I also said that the course gets as soggy as every other course after very heavy rain. This is basic physics.

What I am arguing is the notion that the course could be considered in any way a soggy course. This is totally different to what I've said above.

I've also said a few times now but I'll repeat; I have far more merit to my opinion to yours yet you continue to try convince me. Or others. Curious that.

First Up

the lawman wrote: »

Incredible.

I agreed that after a day of heavy rain there are is a few areas that drain slower than 98% of the course.

I also said that the course gets as soggy as every other course after very heavy rain. This is basic physics.

What I am arguing is the notion that the course could be considered in any way a soggy course. This is totally different to what I've said above.

I've also said a few times now but I'll repeat; I have far more merit to my opinion to yours yet you continue to try convince me. Or others. Curious that.

The "basic physics" issue here is how quickly the "sogginess" is dispersed. In my experience Rathcore isn't amongst the quickest to do so. Your counter argument is to tell me how often you have played Rathcore.

I have nothing against Rathcore but I do object to illogical arguments.

the lawman

First Up wrote: »

The "basic physics" issue here is how quickly the "sogginess" is dispersed. In my experience Rathcore isn't amongst the quickest to do so. Your counter argument is to tell me how often you have played Rathcore.

I have nothing against Rathcore but I do object to illogical arguments.

An illogical argument would be trying to convince a person who is a member of a golf course, one that he has played at least once a week through all four seasons, that the course is soggier than most.

This is assuming of course that your argument is based on subjectiveness. And if so then playing the course and being around the course is probably the best way to judge it.

Unless you are withholding some official Sogginess Meter readings that back up your case then perhaps you should leave this here as you've made your point.

PS I wouldn't bother wasting my time talking about this if indeed the course was quite soggy. It isn't.

First Up

the lawman wrote: »

An illogical argument would be trying to convince a person who is a member of a golf course, one that he has played at least once a week through all four seasons, that the course is soggier than most.

This is assuming of course that your argument is based on subjectiveness. And if so then playing the course and being around the course is probably the best way to judge it.

Unless you are withholding some official Sogginess Meter readings that back up your case then perhaps you should leave this here as you've made your point.

PS I wouldn't bother wasting my time talking about this if indeed the course was quite soggy. It isn't.

You said that Rathcore gets soggy after heavy rain "like all courses." My comment in response to that was that there is variation in how courses handle rain.

My "argument" is based on comparison. The number of times you have played Rathcore tells us nothing about how it behaves relative to other courses. Now if you want to list courses you have played that drain poorly (or no better) than Rathcore, we might move the discussion along. I may well agree with you about a number of them, but I could also list some that I think drain better.

the lawman

First Up wrote: »

You said that Rathcore gets soggy after heavy rain "like all courses" My comment in response to that was that there is variation in how courses handle rain.

My "argument" is based on comparison. The number of times you have played Rathcore tells us nothing about how it behaves relative to other courses. Now if you want to list courses you have played that drain poorly (or no better) than Rathcore, we might move the discussion along. I may well agree with you about a number of them, but I could also list some that I think drain better.

I'm not arguing that there is variation to how courses drain water, of course there are, all I said was I believed my course did not have an issue in this regard. And I'm also using other course that I've played over the years as my comparison.

Could it be at all feasible that you played the course after a few bad days of rain, maybe twice and that you formed your opinion then and there? Or are you one of these chaps that's never wrong about anything and will never accept you are. Let me know if you are as it will save me some time.

As I said previously I wouldn't have the disrespect to engage in listing golf courses on a public forum in a negative way like you have here so lets leave the argument there. Hopefully.

IITYWYBMAD

I've no axe to grind, I'm a member of a club in Meath, just 20 minutes from Rathcore.

I've played Rathcore a number of times, and really like it as I find a lot of the holes challenging. I've played 1 open, a couple of casual rounds, and a good few society outings on it.

To be fair, in June/July I've found that the course plays very well, and is perfect.

I'm a member of a society in Dunboyne, and we played our first outing in Rathcore last year and the previous year, and the course was not drained properly. That's a fact.

I accept that we have different weather conditions year to year, but my experience of Rathcore is that it is quite soggy in places, when other courses in the area are not.

This year in the society (last week) our first outing was in Arklow GC, and (while windy) the course was perfectly set up and completely dry. I played Killeen Castle on the Sunday, and it was also in great shape.

My experience of playing Rathcore is that the drainage is not what it should be.

Whyner

I've played it a few times and would put it in the soggy biscuit category

kiers47

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

I've no axe to grind, I'm a member of a club in Meath, just 20 minutes from Rathcore.

I've played Rathcore a number of times, and really like it as I find a lot of the holes challenging. I've played 1 open, a couple of casual rounds, and a good few society outings on it.

To be fair, in June/July I've found that the course plays very well, and is perfect.

I'm a member of a society in Dunboyne, and we played our first outing in Rathcore last year and the previous year, and the course was not drained properly. That's a fact.

I accept that we have different weather conditions year to year, but my experience of Rathcore is that it is quite soggy in places, when other courses in the area are not.

This year in the society (last week) our first outing was in Arklow GC, and (while windy) the course was perfectly set up and completely dry. I played Killeen Castle on the Sunday, and it was also in great shape.

My experience of playing Rathcore is that the drainage is not what it should be.

Arklow is a links. It is hardly a valid comparison.

the lawman

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

I've no axe to grind, I'm a member of a club in Meath, just 20 minutes from Rathcore.

I've played Rathcore a number of times, and really like it as I find a lot of the holes challenging. I've played 1 open, a couple of casual rounds, and a good few society outings on it.

To be fair, in June/July I've found that the course plays very well, and is perfect.

I'm a member of a society in Dunboyne, and we played our first outing in Rathcore last year and the previous year, and the course was not drained properly. That's a fact.

I accept that we have different weather conditions year to year, but my experience of Rathcore is that it is quite soggy in places, when other courses in the area are not.

This year in the society (last week) our first outing was in Arklow GC, and (while windy) the course was perfectly set up and completely dry. I played Killeen Castle on the Sunday, and it was also in great shape.

My experience of playing Rathcore is that the drainage is not what it should be.

Arklow is a links and Killeen Castle is one of the best courses in Ireland and probably has a state of the art drainage system. A very unfair comparison at best.

Surprised at the last two posts I truly am but subjectiveness is what it is.

charlieIRL

AND WE'RE BACK TO TALKING ABOUT COMPETITIONS, OK?

SaveOurLyric

Russman wrote: »

What if someone wants to play golf on both days at the weekend ? Is it a case of just basically tough t1tty ?

Quite the contrary. Play away. And fully within the rules. You can play the casual game on the Saturday if you wish, then enter the comp on the Sunday.

Its not practicing the course on the day of the competition, so your competitive round on the Sunday is still fully legal. Play all the putts you want on the Saturday to get to know the greens for Sunday morning even.
Two days = two distinct golf competitions as far as the rules are concerned. Its just overcrowded/undercrowded/facilitating-people-who-work-on-a-weekend-day issues that motivate clubs to effectively combine two competitions and and award one set of prizes.

I have never hear of it, but they could even allow you to put in two competition scores if they wished(and maybe finish both first AND second and get cut for both rounds - though you would have to enter the Sunday round with your handicap cut from the Saturday if applicable !), as long as it were limited to one on each day it still wouldnt be a non qualifying re-entry score.

limos

I've just heard that the gui said anyone that dropped out of bunkers on Sunday are disqualified, that's absolutely ridiculous as there was a sign beside the sign in book saying bunkers GUR, and the member of staff told everyone the same.

So how can the players be punished for such a cock up, this is a medal and also a golfer of the year comp, if this is the final outcome I'm going to contact the GUI and find out how they came to this decision and make sure they have all the facts .