Major Fire at Newbridge Housing Estate

Doop

Pleanty of news areticles

http://www.thejournal.ie/kildare-fire-service-2023692-Mar2015/

Thankfully no one injured. My question is how a fire in the middle of the day progress to destroy six houses. Is it a case of 'well disasters happen' or a more sinister situation where the houses have been inadequately fire stopped? Im slightly amazed that it can and does happen. Obviously simply details like rafter placement etc can have a huge impact but to spread from house to house is incredible.

I remember something similar happening a couple of years ago to an 80's built terrace in rathgar in dublin, but to be fair the newbridge houses are alot more recent and will be up to recent regs.

Rathgar Fire (below)

Greenmachine

Absolutely shocking. Hope everyone got out safe, and had adequate insurance.
Wouldn't be surprised if the builders have already declared themselves bankrupt.

BryanF

We've had exceptional windy weather yesterday, there may well have been other factors at play but we'll wait to see what the local fire officer has to say once their enquires are complete.

Cavity barriers etc between buildings are typically 60min rated - this is to give adequate time for occupants to exit.

Strolling Bones

One would suspect that fire stopping was missing or badly installed - the reason why Priory Hall was emptied.

sydthebeat

looks like a block of 6 terrace houses... but also looks like (going by google maps) that there was 3 changes of roof plane with that terrace block.

cant find out if their timber frame, but if their block built, that means that there was 3 separate separating walls with no requirement for cavity barriers as the block work should run beyond the plane of the abutting roof.

perhaps this is more of a lapse in regulation and requirement than workmanship?

parapets offer greater protection.


http://www.irishconcrete.ie/downloads/enniscorthy_fire.pdf

oscar2

At a guess I'd say properties are of timber Framed construction. Even if built to spec once fire get through plasterboard etc to timber structure then house is a potential write off. Windy conditions can't have helped

sydthebeat

oscar2 wrote: »

At a guess I'd say properties are of timber Framed construction. Even if built to spec once fire get through plasterboard etc to timber structure then house is a potential write off. Windy conditions can't have helped

yeah i think your right, you can see the studs in the attic party wall between the 2 affected houses on the left.

seems to be inadequate party protection

Charlie-Bravo

Looking at the pics on rte.ie all I can see is the outer leaf walls and the chimney structures so my guess is timber frame. Anyone know how long the fire went for?!

Hairy mellon

iir this was a ghost / unfinished estate, with developer bust.

sydthebeat

a very small section was unfinished, but id say it is 90% complete

RandomAccess

I suppose this must have ramifications for the insurability of other terraced houses in the estate?

Also, could/should this result in measures similar to those taken at priory hall, or would the inspectors be afraid to recommend those drastic actions, in light of the mess that the priory hall situation resulted in?

In the Rathgar case it looks like the fire was able to travel along the mansard style roof, effectively bypassing the party wall firewalls.

Spanish Eyes

Whoa, that would make anyone think about the "firewall" between houses in a terrace or semi.

DublinDilbert

astrofluff wrote: »

Looking at the pics on rte.ie all I can see is the outer leaf walls and the chimney structures so my guess is timber frame. Anyone know how long the fire went for?!

I was shocked to see the chimney stacks up in the air. There definitely wasn't a block wall between them, would that be the norm in timber frame?

Scary that much chimney sitting up there on so little, wouldn't be happy sleeping under that.

You can actually see where the plaster board was bonded to the chimney breasts with blobs of plaster.

beazee

DublinDilbert wrote: »

There definitely wasn't a block wall between them, would that be the norm in timber frame?

Interested in that myself!

sydthebeat

beazee wrote: »

Interested in that myself!

earlier TF constructions would have had block party walls.... but the regulations simply stated a fire resistance of 60 minutes

so developers pushed to have TF party walls designed to have 60 minutes, which meant they didnt have to pay bricklayers to build party walls, they didnt have to wait until that blockwork dried out to continue work etc

this example (millfield) shows how either:
1. theoretical compliance doesnt equal real world compliance
2. workmanship or materials did not standup to standard
3. the regulations were simply not met

harr

We are in a timber frame house built around same time as the houses that caught fire and and we have a block wall between us and the neighbours and a lot more space to the side of the house than there was in the houses above .
It does seem from photos above and some I have seen online that there was no block work between both houses and that the one big timber frame was used for both houses.

Drift

I'm not usually an advocate for TF construction but it shouldn't be blamed solely for what happened in this case. I think we all strongly suspect that the TF party walls were not constructed or installed as per the specifications.

Maybe the question is should we deem 60 minute fire resistance sufficient between semi-d dwellings? Obviously protection of life is paramount and one would expect 60 minutes to be sufficient for evacuation. What about protection of property and home?

Boiler rooms in non-domestic settings often required 4 hour fire resistance - if party walls of this rating were required would it allow time for a fire brigade to arrive and deal with one semi-d without major structural damage occuring to the neighbour? Or is it a waste of time due to the smoke damage that would most likely occur even with 4 hour resistance?

sydthebeat

Drift wrote: »

I'm not usually an advocate for TF construction but it shouldn't be blamed solely for what happened in this case. I think we all strongly suspect that the TF party walls were not constructed or installed as per the specifications.

Maybe the question is should we deem 60 minute fire resistance sufficient between semi-d dwellings? Obviously protection of life is paramount and one would expect 60 minutes to be sufficient for evacuation. What about protection of property and home?

Boiler rooms in non-domestic settings often required 4 hour fire resistance - if party walls of this rating were required would it allow time for a fire brigade to arrive and deal with one semi-d without major structural damage occuring to the neighbour? Or is it a waste of time due to the smoke damage that would most likely occur even with 4 hour resistance?

60 minutes is fine

these 6 dwellings were destroyed in 20 minutes

Drift

That's a disgrace and somebody needs to answer questions regarding build quality!

To be honest if there was a fire in my kitchen I wouldn't expect it to have gotten to the bedroom by 20 minutes - not to mind 6 houses up the road! (Smoke is a separate issue)

Even a single layer of appropriately installed plasterboard has a certain level of fire resistance!!

sydthebeat

Drift wrote: »

That's a disgrace and somebody needs to answer questions regarding build quality!

To be honest if there was a fire in my kitchen I wouldn't expect it to have gotten to the bedroom by 20 minutes - not to mind 6 houses up the road! (Smoke is a separate issue)

Even a single layer of appropriately installed plasterboard has a certain level of fire resistance!!

completely agreed, and i think investigation of teh other houses in teh area will be revealing

Strolling Bones

Still. The DOE reckon that €500 to design and then 5 visits during the build is enough to certify this stuff.
So that's ok for the future now.

RORY O CONNOR

I do wonder is the builder still in business and the guy who certified the houses as being in compliance with the building regs-specifically the regs concerning fire proofing.

The party wall should have had a fire rating of at least one hour but the fire spread in 20 mins so something is not right there. The other houses would need to be checked to see if the party walls meet building reg standards for prevention of the spread of fire.

beazee

The most recent report, completed on May 20, outlines in the starkest terms the consequences for the owners of the 90 houses in the estate pointing out that the shortfalls detected “leads to a total loss of saleable title and value for the properties and the almost certain withdrawal of insurance facilities thereon by insurers (as soon as they are further informed on the issues)” .

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/houses-in-fire-estate-have-no-resale-value-335611.html

Does that mean the mortgages are no longer secured as the properties lost it's value?

RORY O CONNOR

I know of a new timber house that was snagged-in the last six weeks. The party wall in the loft was incompleted plasterboard and the gap at the roof had been sealed with expanded foam from an aerosol-so much for the sign off and building regulations.

tabby aspreme

Since the fire ,Kildare county council commissioned a report into the safety and construction of some unoccupied houses in the Millfield estate, defects were found in the party walls, residents have been told by council officials they should have there own houses examined by fire engineers, and carry out there own remedial work.

Gumbo

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Since the fire ,Kildare county council commissioned a report into the safety and construction of some unoccupied houses in the Millfield estate, defects were found in the party walls, residents have been told by council officials they should have there own houses examined by fire engineers, and carry out there own remedial work.

Council are right telling the home owners to remedy their own houses. This is just another fall off from the boom, people buying houses, and the surveyor not doing a thorough inspection, on top of that, the crap that the builders got away with.

It's changing now for the better from my experience in Dublin.

BryanF

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Since the fire ,Kildare county council commissioned a report into the safety and construction of some unoccupied houses in the Millfield estate, defects were found in the party walls, residents have been told by council officials they should have there own houses examined by fire engineers, and carry out there own remedial work.

Can you provide a link to this info or is this hearsay?

tabby aspreme

BryanF wrote: »

Can you provide a link to this info or is this hearsay?

Not able to put up direct link, but if you search , 'Newbridge house fire ' in the Kildare Nationalist you will find it

Gumbo

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Not able to put up direct link, but if you search , 'Newbridge house fire ' in the Kildare Nationalist you will find it

Can't find it.

Why can't a link be posted?

tabby aspreme

kceire wrote: »

Can't find it.

Why can't a link be posted?

Phone won't let me link because it's in html, scroll down the kildare nationalist page and near the end you will find the search facility

sydthebeat

http://www.kildare-nationalist.ie/2015/05/15/report-identifies-major-deficiences-in-nerwbridge-houses/

Just keep your finger on the link and selected copy

Strolling Bones

Residents were told at the meeting that it was their own responsibility to have their homes surveyed and to undertake any remedial action that may be required

The essence of Irish Building Control in particular and to official Irelands attitude to it's citizens in general. Pay taxes,pay development contributions, fees, levies and charges.Even pay for the collapse of the money lending industry that to serve it's own ends acted to hike up the price that you borrow to pay for your house. And pay for your own houses defects just as if they were caused by your own act or ommision.

And everyone will continue to comply meekly.

Gumbo

Strolling Bones wrote: »

The essence of Irish Building Control in particular and to official Irelands attitude to it's citizens in general. Pay taxes,pay development contributions, fees, levies and charges.Even pay for the collapse of the money lending industry that to serve it's own ends acted to hike up the price that you borrow to pay for your house. And pay for your own houses defects just as if they were caused by your own act or ommision.

And everyone will continue to comply meekly.

What about the Private Sector architect/engineer that signed them off in the first place?
What about the surveyor that purchasers engaged when buying the home?

This cannot be laid at the feet of Building Control alone?

Strolling Bones

kceire wrote: »

What about the Private Sector architect/engineer that signed them off in the first place?
What about the surveyor that purchasers engaged when buying the home?

This cannot be laid at the feet of Building Control alone?

The primary failure is Building Control who always do as you do now. Deflect.

godtabh

RORY O CONNOR wrote: »

I know of a new timber house that was snagged-in the last six weeks. The party wall in the loft was incompleted plasterboard and the gap at the roof had been sealed with expanded foam from an aerosol-so much for the sign off and building regulations.

Might have commenced under the old regs

Gumbo

Edit - double post.

Gumbo

Strolling Bones wrote: »

The primary failure is Building Control who always do as you do now. Deflect.

I agree. The primary failure was building control from a developer, architect, engineers and ultimately whoever signed off on the development.

godtabh wrote: »

Might have commenced under the old regs

Shouldn't make any difference. Old regs, new regs somebody should be inspecting these developments from whoever is signing off on the project. It's pure laziness and unprofessional.

tabby aspreme

Council inspections

Poor Uncle Tom

Given the above, just how many visits should it take to safely be able to certify compliance with the Building Regulations under the current Building Control Act.?

Strolling Bones

kceire wrote: »

I agree. The primary failure was building control from a developer, architect, engineers and ultimately whoever signed off on the development.

So why in Ireland do Building Control Oficers even exist?

( to other readers - believe it or not , they do )

Gumbo

Strolling Bones wrote: »

So why in Ireland do Building Control Oficers even exist?

( to other readers - believe it or not , they do )

Unfortunately it's like speeding. You can't catch or check every car you see.

I suspect that most of the defects will come to light when houses are surveyed as part of the selling process. It will be up to the prospective buyer of the "second hand" house to ensure the building is up to standard.

Strolling Bones

kceire wrote: »

Unfortunately it's like speeding. You can't catch or check every car you see.

These defects in Kildare are now "caught" by that LA's Building Control departement and what action do they take - throw it back at the owners and leaving them alone with the problem.

Whereas it is precislely the lack of BCO inspections and enforcement activity (endowed on BCO's and no one else by legislation) that has permtted a rotten building culture to take hold in Ireland.

BCO's in Ireland have de facto no practical impact or affect for good.

So again - why do you exist? What purpose do you serve?

Gumbo

Deleted User wrote: »

I suspect that most of the defects will come to light when houses are surveyed as part of the selling process. It will be up to the prospective buyer of the "second hand" house to ensure the building is up to standard.

Or the buyer could walk away u less the owner fixes the issues or drops the price to allow for the works.

Strolling Bones wrote: »

These defects in Kildare are now "caught" by that LA's Building Control departement and what action do they take - throw it back at the owners and leaving them alone with the problem.

Whereas it is precislely the lack of BCO inspections and enforcement activity (endowed on BCO's and no one else by legislation) that has permtted a rotten building culture to take hold in Ireland.

BCO's in Ireland have de facto no practical impact or affect for good.

So again - why do you exist? What purpose do you serve?

So the guy that signed off on this project done no wrong?

How many BCO's do you think the county has? They cannot inspect every project at every key stage with current resources.

kceire

kceire wrote: »

Or the buyer could walk away unless the owner fixes the issues or drops the price to allow for the works.

Exactly what I was thinking as well, they may not be able to get a mortgage based on the results of the survey. But it will still the prospective buyer that gets the building surveyed, unless UK style "home information packs" are introduced.

Strolling Bones

kceire wrote: »

So the guy that signed off on this project done no wrong?

Well not is seems in accordance with KKC's advice to home owners that they are on their own.

Residents were told at the meeting that it was their own responsibility to have their homes surveyed and to undertake any remedial action that may be required

kceire wrote: »

How many BCO's do you think the county has? They cannot inspect every project at every key stage with current resources.

Remember how BCO's lobbied so hard during the SI 9 2014 consultation process for govt to go on a major recruitment drive so that ye are resourced to discharge your duties under BCA 90 ?
No?
Neither do I.

Instead as a group ye all draw down salaries for performing tasks that have no material impact on building standards and your silences during the consultation shows that ye are happy to keep things that way.

Strolling Bones

kceire wrote: »

So the guy that signed off on this project done no wrong?

The guy who does this job well does not get hired - or more correct to say - re hired.

Think people - the person who sells you the house buys the services of the certifier. How well does anyone seriously expect that to work?

Buiders ( by that I mean developers , not decent tradesman who I respect greatly ) get out of bed in the morning for only one reason - profit. An honest architect or engineer finds it very hard work indeed to keep manners on them. Such profesionals are an obstacle to profit.

The same human frailties exist in the UK and same developer / architect tensions arise there. But unlike in Ireland BCOs actually perform an effective service of inspections and when required enforcement actions. Sites get shut. Defective works get found - and re worked untill no longer defective. This is routine in the UK. Detached from the developer the UK BCO can not be threatened with the sack for non payment of fees for "being unreasonable".

But kceire my issue is not really with you or your ilk but the tax / levie / charge / fee paying everybody who tolerates to accept so litlle for paying so much.

Gumbo

Strolling Bones wrote: »

Well not is seems in accordance with KKC's advice to home owners that they are on their own.





Remember how BCO's lobbied so hard during the SI 9 2014 consultation process for govt to go on a major recruitment drive so that ye are resourced to discharge your duties under BCA 90 ?
No?
Neither do I.

Instead as a group ye all draw down salaries for performing tasks that have no material impact on building standards and your silences during the consultation shows that ye are happy to keep things that way.

Strolling Bones wrote: »

The guy who does this job well does not get hired - or more correct to say - re hired.

Think people - the person who sells you the house buys the services of the certifier. How well does anyone seriously expect that to work?

Buiders ( by that I mean developers , not decent tradesman who I respect greatly ) get out of bed in the morning for only one reason - profit. An honest architect or engineer finds it very hard work indeed to keep manners on them. Such profesionals are an obstacle to profit.

The same human frailties exist in the UK and same developer / architect tensions arise there. But unlike in Ireland BCOs actually perform an effective service of inspections and when required enforcement actions. Sites get shut. Defective works get found - and re worked untill no longer defective. This is routine in the UK. Detached from the developer the UK BCO can not be threatened with the sack for non payment of fees for "being unreasonable".

But kceire my issue is not really with you or your ilk but the tax / levie / charge / fee paying everybody who tolerates to accept so litlle for paying so much.

Thankfully my experience differs from yours in Dublin anyway. BCO's have stepped in on numerous sites and projects and have insisted on upgrades or redesigns or removal of particular items or face enforcement proceedings.

These are the cases you won't read about in papers or online publications. The issues are rectified quite swiftly in most cases and in most of those case I ask myself why didn't the Architect / AC pick up on this in the first place.

Obviously we have a difference of opinion with regards to who is responsible so I won't bat on further we will just have to respect each other's approach.

Strolling Bones

kceire wrote: »

Thankfully my experience differs from yours in Dublin anyway. BCO's have stepped in on numerous sites and projects and have insisted on upgrades or redesigns or removal of particular items or face enforcement proceedings.

By your own words you say that this does and cannot happen enough to make a material impact on real life building standards.

This BCO activity is akin to two guys in a dinghy with only kitchen ladels to empty the lake that is the lousy house building culture in Ireland.

If I was a BCO I would be "thankful" too that there was in infinite lake of work for me to busy myself with secure in the knowledge that the salary will always arrive and with no realistic expectation that the lake will ever begin to drain.

But anybody else in Ireland that may themseleves need to, or has anyone dear to them that needs to, buy a house in Ireland the reality is that we are only begining to see the list expand of the true nature of our un inspected and inadequately "certified" housing stock.

Pyrites , Priory Hall and this Newbridge estate is only the begining. Watch and see as over and over home owners being left alone as

How many BCO's do you think the county has? They cannot inspect every project at every key stage with current resources.

Gumbo

Strolling Bones wrote: »

By your own words you say that this does and cannot happen enough to make a material impact on real life building standards.

This BCO activity is akin to two guys in a dinghy with only kitchen ladels to empty the lake that is the lousy house building culture in Ireland.

If I was a BCO I would be "thankful" too that there was in infinite lake of work for me to busy myself with secure in the knowledge that the salary will always arrive and with no realistic expectation that the lake will ever begin to drain.

But anybody else in Ireland that may themseleves need to, or has anyone dear to them that needs to, buy a house in Ireland the reality is that we are only begining to see the list expand of the true nature of our un inspected and inadequately "certified" housing stock.

Pyrites , Priory Hall and this Newbridge estate is only the begining. Watch and see as over and over home owners being left alone as

The culture needs to change with Arichitects/Engineers that are acting into these lead positions on projects from the old schoole way of doing things.

Thankfully, the next generation of AC's that i am coming across lately are involved alot more in these projects compared to others.

Being appointed to sign off on a project and then sit back and blame building culture and lack of Building Control is just adding fuel to the fire, these people need to either step up and actively supervise their projects or remove themselves from the profession.

Strolling Bones wrote: »

But anybody else in Ireland that may themseleves need to, or has anyone dear to them that needs to, buy a house in Ireland the reality is that we are only begining to see the list expand of the true nature of our un inspected and inadequately "certified" housing stock.

Whose fault is that though?
Yes we have no legislation for compulsary inspections of the homes, but the developer and architect/engineer should net be doing this shoddy work in the first place.

Strolling Bones

kceire wrote: »

Yes we have no legislation for compulsary inspections of the homes, but the developer and architect/engineer should net be doing this shoddy work in the first place.

so what is the point of BCO's then ?