Twin calves

High bike

Looking for people's views on the prospect of breeding from twin heifer calves.Am I right in thinking twin heifers are ok for breeding but a heifer who is a half twin to a bull won't breed?

Mad4simmental

High bike wrote: »

Looking for people's views on the prospect of breeding from twin heifer calves.Am I right in thinking twin heifers are ok for breeding but a heifer who is a half twin to a bull won't breed?

Correct

Kovu

Spot on. Twin heifers are perfect for breeding. Twin heifer to a bull has a negligible chance of being correct for breeding, however the bull is ok.

MickeyShtyles

Kovu wrote: »

Spot on. Twin heifers are perfect for breeding. Twin heifer to a bull has a negligible chance of being correct for breeding, however the bull is ok.

Freemartin isn't it?

Kovu

MickeyShtyles wrote: »

Freemartin isn't it?

Yip.

Limestone Cowboy

Kovu wrote: »

Spot on. Twin heifers are perfect for breeding. Twin heifer to a bull has a negligible chance of being correct for breeding, however the bull is ok.

To dig a bit deeper here, have a neighbour that had twins during the week, a bull and a heifer. The cow had 2 seperate cleanings/placentas. Would this have any bearing on whether the heifer would be ok to breed or not down the line does anyone know? Also would twin heifers be a lot more likely to have twins themselves if they were bred down the line?

Kovu

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

To dig a bit deeper here, have a neighbour that had twins during the week, a bull and a heifer. The cow had 2 seperate cleanings/placentas. Would this have any bearing on whether the heifer would be ok to breed or not down the line does anyone know? Also would twin heifers be a lot more likely to have twins themselves if they were bred down the line?

Twins certainly do seem to run in cattle genetics. Much the same as other mammals I'd say. Nearly every cow that has twins here has two sets or her mother/sister has twins as well. I've also noticed they tend to be the more fertile cows so perhaps that has something to do with it.

From what I remember, as the twins share the same womb, the fluids will mix,& the heifer will usually get too much testosterone which hinders the growth of internal reproductive organs. So 90% + are infertile. Greysides may explain the technical bit behind it.....:pac:

Nettleman

If you have twins, and one dies, do you still have to bvd test the dead twin?

Kovu

Nettleman wrote: »

If you have twins, and one dies, do you still have to bvd test the dead twin?

You should BVD test all calves alive or dead. Also a fun fact that identical twins in cattle are quite rare.

High bike

Kovu wrote: »

Spot on. Twin heifers are perfect for breeding. Twin heifer to a bull has a negligible chance of being correct for breeding, however the bull is ok.

Thanks fo that folks,that's what I thought let's hope this pair produce a few more sets of twins,the more the merrier:D

Limestone Cowboy

Kovu wrote: »

Twins certainly do seem to run in cattle genetics. Much the same as other mammals I'd say. Nearly every cow that has twins here has two sets or her mother/sister has twins as well. I've also noticed they tend to be the more fertile cows so perhaps that has something to do with it.

From what I remember, as the twins share the same womb, the fluids will mix,& the heifer will usually get too much testosterone which hinders the growth of internal reproductive organs. So 90% + are infertile. Greysides may explain the technical bit behind it.....:pac:

Ya I understand that part alright, just sny set we had here I never took notice that there were two seperate cleanings. Was thinking that maybe the calfs wouldn't have been mixing in the same fluids

Kovu

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

Ya I understand that part alright, just sny set we had here I never took notice that there were two seperate cleanings. Was thinking that maybe the calfs wouldn't have been mixing in the same fluids

I believe their is a common flow between then after a certain date. I'm not certain on it but think it's to do with blood vessels joining the placentas together.

greysides

A freemartin or free-martin (sometimes martin heifer) is an infertile female mammal with masculinized behavior and non-functioning ovaries. Genetically the animal is chimeric: Karyotyping of a sample of cells shows XX/XY chromosomes. The animal originates as a female (XX), but acquires the male (XY) component in utero by exchange of some cellular material from a male twin, via vascular connections between placentas. Externally, the animal appears female, but various aspects of female reproductive development are altered due to acquisition of anti-Müllerian hormone from the male twin. Freemartinism is the normal outcome of mixed-sex twins in all cattle species that have been studied, and it also occurs occasionally in other mammals including sheep, goats and pigs.


Mechanism

In most cattle twins, the blood vessels in the chorions become interconnected, creating a shared circulation for both twins. If both fetuses are the same sex this is of no significance, but if they are different, male hormones pass from the male twin to the female twin. The male hormones (testosterone and anti-Müllerian hormone) then masculinize the female twin, and the result is a freemartin. The degree of masculinization is greater if the fusion occurs earlier in the pregnancy – in about ten percent of cases no fusion takes place and the female remains fertile.

The male twin is largely unaffected by the fusion, although the size of the testicles may be slightly reduced. Testicle size is associated with fertility, so there may be some reduction in bull fertility.

Freemartins behave and grow in a similar way to castrated male cattle (steers).


Diagnosis

If suspected, a test can be done to detect the presence of the male Y-chromosomes in some circulating white blood cells of the subject. Genetic testing for the Y-chromosome can be performed within days of birth and can aid in the early identification of a sterile female bovine.

Physical examination of the calf may also reveal differences: many (but not all) freemartins have a short vagina compared with that of a fertile heifer.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemartin

Future Farmer

Remember being told a Freemartin has a 7% chance of being fertile.

But you can get calves tested for Freemartiness is the Irish Equine Centre which saves a bit of messing around.

About 10% of South Devon births are twins.

The man in red and black

http://twinnercattle.com.au/

That's what you want there. You would have more problems with retained placentas, losing calves, hard to get back in calf etc, but the benefits outweigh them in my opinion.

High bike

The man in red and black wrote: »

http://twinnercattle.com.au/

That's what you want there. You would have more problems with retained placentas, losing calves, hard to get back in calf etc, but the benefits outweigh them in my opinion.

very interesting reading

adne

Bought a year and half old heifer i had intended to bull.
I see now on agfood that she a twin (dont know if it to a bull or a heifer)
I presume i have no comeback as she was not announced for breeding.

Any thoughts?

Kovu

What you say 'not announced for breeding' do you mean the auctioneer called out that she was unsuitable for breeding or nothing was called out at all?

A maiden going through the ring is always sold suitable for breeding unless announced as wrong/twin etc.
So if nothing was announced with her you can send her back.

kowtow

When registering twins on agfood is there anything special that has to be ticked or done?

I've just registered 2 sets via herdwatch but in each case I was warned that the calving interval was less than 284 days (though in one case the second twin was such a difficult b***d that it felt like it was)...

Went ahead and registered them "brute force" style but did I miss anything which specified they were each a twin?

Kovu

kowtow wrote: »

When registering twins on agfood is there anything special that has to be ticked or done?

I've just registered 2 sets via herdwatch but in each case I was warned that the calving interval was less than 284 days (though in one case the second twin was such a difficult b***d that it felt like it was)...

Went ahead and registered them "brute force" style but did I miss anything which specified they were each a twin?

Nope, nothing specific. I guess the herdwatch automatically/instantly reg's the first twin as a single and recalls it when you go to put in the second one. The archaic agfood site trundles along at its own pace and does the two together.

adne

Kovu wrote: »

What you say 'not announced for breeding' do you mean the auctioneer called out that she was unsuitable for breeding or nothing was called out at all?

A maiden going through the ring is always sold suitable for breeding unless announced as wrong/twin etc.
So if nothing was announced with her you can send her back.

Nothing called out at all.

Guy selling was the 2nd owner does that make a differ

tanko

adne wrote: »

Nothing called out at all.

Guy selling was the 2nd owner does that make a differ

Unfortunately the fact that you bought off the second owner might be bad news for you if the heifer turns out to be a Freemartin. He could claim that he didn't know she was a twin.
Twin heifers are a very rare occurrence for me, the last nineteen sets of twins here have been two Bulls or Bull plus heifer. The only way to be sure is to get your heifer scanned.
You could always try contacting the original owner, maybe he'll be honest with you maybe he wont.

Kovu

^ I think tanko has the right idea there, maybe get back to the original owner and ask if he announced it and if the second seller is fibbing.
If all goes to all, you can see where she was sold on the back of her card first time round. Ring that mart and see what it says in the sheet for her first sale- ie the breeder selling.

Any ai man worth his salt can also tell if twin to a bull by handling her.

adne

Kovu wrote: »

^ I think tanko has the right idea there, maybe get back to the original owner and ask if he announced it and if the second seller is fibbing.
If all goes to all, you can see where she was sold on the back of her card first time round. Ring that mart and see what it says in the sheet for her first sale- ie the breeder selling.

Any ai man worth his salt can also tell if twin to a bull by handling her.

cheers for all the info.

Rang icbf, twin to a heifer... Happy days

High bike

adne wrote: »

cheers for all the info.
H
Rang icbf, twin to a heifer... Happy days

bet that brightened up ur day:D

sonnybill

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

To dig a bit deeper here, have a neighbour that had twins during the week, a bull and a heifer. The cow had 2 seperate cleanings/placentas. Would this have any bearing on whether the heifer would be ok to breed or not down the line does anyone know? Also would twin heifers be a lot more likely to have twins themselves if they were bred down the line?

Had Gurka twins yesterday .. She had nice heifer calf bit of roan in her and cleaned .. Then lied down, I Went away and when I returned she had a smaller yellow bull licked dry and sucked.. Second cleaning was huge. Calves not identical , 2 cleanings , .. Still only 10% chance of her being able to breed! ??

How did yours work out LC?

tanko

May '15 QCD heifer and bull

tanko

Today, 2 week old KYA bull.
Never thought i'd see this happen. Who said freemartens are only good for burgers:pac:

High bike

Is that her as a calf in the first pic?

furandfeather

tanko wrote: »

Today, 2 week old KYA bull.
Never thought i'd see this happen. Who said freemartens are only good for burgers:pac:

Did you get her Dna or did you just take a chance with her?

tanko

Yeah, that's her just after she was born..
No DNA test or anything like that, saw her bulling last summer and thought nothing of it and just ignored her. Three weeks later she was bulling again so Ai'ed her that evening and she went in-calf. She seemed perfectly normal inside. Her mother has had five sets of twins out of six calvings.

Who2

tanko wrote: »

Today, 2 week old KYA bull.
Never thought i'd see this happen. Who said freemartens are only good for burgers:pac:

She done alright for you, twin to a bull and well fit by the second pic to calve down at just over 2 years. Fair play.

High bike

tanko wrote: »

Yeah, that's her just after she was born..
No DNA test or anything like that, saw her bulling last summer and thought nothing of it and just ignored her. Three weeks later she was bulling again so Ai'ed her that evening and she went in-calf. She seemed perfectly normal inside. Her mother has had five sets of twins out of six calvings.

nice heifer for 25 Mts,your lucky she was one of the 10% that breed

amacca

"Freemartins behave and grow in a similar way to castrated male cattle (steers)."

Don't want to derail this thread but I found the above interesting. Could anyone tell me where I might find some reputable scientific info on exactly how the way steers grow differs from a bull. Id be interested in getting some specifics on this

Im aware of the behaviour differences

Just specifically how it affects their thrive, if it affects what they might grade out at, what the ideal time to castrate them is if you definitely don't want them to grow into bulls but you would like them to put on muscle and develop well as steers.....what the timeline for them get to their full potential is assuming good quality feed etc