Everything Hpat 2015 Thread - Spurious, deleting comments

sleepyheadh

I noticed the other day that someone had removed my comments from the thread regarding Hpat 2015. This came as quite a surprise, as no warnings, or even yellow cards were issued. In fact no one had even mentioned by comments.

The Person who I was talking to in these specific comments, even said;

Originally Posted by dalta5billion
I'm a bit surprised, you're certainly entitled to express your views (the ones that I've seen anyway), no matter how much I disagree with them.

As it turns out, Spurious had deleted my comments,

Originally Posted by spurious
Yes. I deleted them. Do you think they were helpful? 'Crazy person' particularly.

I pm'd Spurious, with regards to this, his reply was as follows:

If you wish to. I didn't issue any warnings etc., I deleted some name calling posts. If you wish to go to DRP, please do.

As the posts have been deleted, it is hard for me to refute the argument of "name calling", I believe in the comment Spurious took such offensive to I said the poster looked like a "crazy person", with regards to emailing the organisation that runs the HPAT exam, claiming to represent the HPAT Student Union.

I would really appreciate to see the comments that Spurious deleted, because I know that some of them were completely harmless. However, I do know that what I was saying was completely against what Spurious himself was posting on the thread.

Originally Posted by spurious View Post
That's a bit convenient. The three qs they were not going to count happen to be the last three on the paper, which as most people work from the front and go through the booklet, would be the last qs people did/were planning to do?

So, in an exam where people say they were not given enough time they have just taken the last 3 qs out of the game (while stating that there was no shortfall in time)? How handy.

Perhaps it's a new HPAT test to see who will fight for something when they know they are in the right?

OK, not really, but personally I'm amazed there isn't more hoohah about this. If I had been in the centre where I got less time than anyone else and then discovered nothing was being done about it, I would be getting senior legal advice. I would not let it rest.

There has not been fair play here.

Now you can say 'Well it didn't affect me so boo hoo' as many here seem to be prepared to do, or you can say 'Oh well, that's life', or you can make at least some attempt to have people recognise that things were not done fairly, EVEN IF nothing comes out of it.

Fast forward twenty years and let's hope some here will be more active in standing up for the rights of patients to get a fair go.

What it looks like to me, is that Spurious, didn't agree with my comments, and this took it upon himself to delete them, using a weak excuse of "name-calling", a fact that even the poster who was "named-called" seems quite bemused by:

Originally Posted by dalta5billion
I'm a bit surprised, you're certainly entitled to express your views (the ones that I've seen anyway), no matter how much I disagree with them.

I would really appreciate if Spurious, would defend his actions, with regards to why each post has been deleted specifically.

Thanks very much guys.

spurious

As I have explained by PM, I deleted these comments describing them as 'unnecessary baiting'. Obviously the responses had to be deleted too.
Quite happy to pass this to an Admin. I stand by my actions.

sleepyheadh

Thats, fine, but maybe just post them up here, so I can actually which ones you deleted!

Its hard to see where you are coming from if I can't even see the posts?!

sleepyheadh

Would also appreciate if you could define "unnecessary baiting" also, not exactly crystal on what you mean.

Spear

Moved from DRP since this isn't DRP related.

sleepyheadh

Spear wrote: »

Moved from DRP since this isn't DRP related.

What is it then?

sleepyheadh

Re: Dispute resolution?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepyheadh
So are we going to have to go through dispute resolution?

Originally Posted by Spurious
If you wish to. I didn't issue any warnings etc., I deleted some name calling posts. If you wish to go to DRP, please do.

Spurious advised me to come here, so maybe you could explain it a bit more than that. cheers

The Hill Billy

The Dispute Resolution process is for appealing against warnings, infractions or forum bans. Other issues not relating to these are more suited to here (ie, Help Desk).

sleepyheadh

ok so what is the process here?

spurious

First deleted post:

sleepyheadh:
It really isn't surprising that they are ignoring you! You look like a crazy person, who has just invented the HPATsu. You can't just wish a student union into existence. Have you written a constitution? Held a establishing meeting, held elections that appointed you to the position you claim to hold? Had meetings with the parties involved, ACER, DoE, etc?

On a separate note, what exactly are the guiding principles of your union, this single issue? You guys, seriously look ridiculous at this stage, just focus on your leaving and wait and see if you get in or not. If you get in, I guarantee you will look back on this as a absolute waste of time, and energy.

Second deleted post:

nocofee:
You're just scared that if a proper fair resolution is attained, you'll be disadvantaged..and btw a few mins on boards isint going to change your lc score, if you think that you're "a crazy person"so stop taking bull

Third deleted post:

sleepyheadh:
Already in 2nd year medicine, so I'm not really that worried!

sleepyheadh

Ok so lets deal with this, one by one.

spurious wrote: »

First deleted post:

sleepyheadh:
It really isn't surprising that they are ignoring you! You look like a crazy person, who has just invented the HPATsu. You can't just wish a student union into existence. Have you written a constitution? Held a establishing meeting, held elections that appointed you to the position you claim to hold? Had meetings with the parties involved, ACER, DoE, etc?

On a separate note, what exactly are the guiding principles of your union, this single issue? You guys, seriously look ridiculous at this stage, just focus on your leaving and wait and see if you get in or not. If you get in, I guarantee you will look back on this as a absolute waste of time, and energy.

Ok so in this post, is the point you are taking offence to the "crazy person" bit? Do you not think you are being a bit unfair, is it even that bad, I didn't even say he was crazy, I used a simile, even the poster didn't take offence!

I would really appreciate a full explanation as to why this is so offence it had to be removed!

spurious wrote: »

Second deleted post:

nocofee:
You're just scared that if a proper fair resolution is attained, you'll be disadvantaged..and btw a few mins on boards isint going to change your lc score, if you think that you're "a crazy person"so stop taking bull

Ok so this one isn't even written by me..and for the record, I am already in college, the HPAT will have no effect what so ever on me, I was saying that the posters should worry more about getting a decent leaving, rather than wasting time, fighting a losing battle with ACER. ..But again, this comment was by Nocoffee not me..

spurious wrote: »

Third deleted post:

sleepyheadh:
Already in 2nd year medicine, so I'm not really that worried!

This is simply a statement of a fact, I would be willing to send you proof of this, if you wish, I certainly can't see how it is offensive, or needs to be taken down.

Also, did you only remove 2 of my posts, it feels like you removed more than that!

spurious

That's all that I removed. If you need it confirmed, I'm sure an Admin, if they have the time, can do that.

It was name calling and only going to cause upset to people (particularly user dalta5billion who it was directed at, but also others in the same position) who were already upset about being disadvantaged in a test which is important for their career hopes. Once the name calling post was gone, I removed the responses to it too as they made no sense without the original post.

TBH, I'm not sure why this is here. I deleted posts I considered unhelpful and destined to drag the discussion off topic,and I would do the same again to those posts in that thread.

If an Admin thinks I made an error, by all means they can put back the posts.

sleepyheadh

id like to get an admin here to look these over, if its possible.

sleepyheadh

Any movement with this?

Shield

Hi there.

I have asked our Admin team to review this as per your request.

You will have to allow time for someone to become familiar with the details of what did or did not happen. Please remember that all of our Site Admins are unpaid volunteers, and it may take a few days for someone to become free to take on your case.

Having said that, I have always found them to be very reliable in their approach to situations where a CMod has made a decision, and the OP (in this case, you) requests a Review. Sometimes, an Admin will take a case on board, work away in the background, and will post only when they have made a decision. Either way, I can assure you that you are not being ignored, and that your case will be given fresh eyes by an Admin who has no allegiance to either you or the CMod who made the decision you are appealing.

Thanks for your patience.

-Shield.

sleepyheadh

Just checking in to see if anything has happened here?

Shield

I've nudged the admins to get one of them in here. It will happen, and I'd say it'll happen soon. I can't give an estimation of time, but seeing that it's been a few weeks now since I brought this to their attention, I am hopeful that it will be this coming week.

-Shield.

sleepyheadh

No worries just making sure it isn't forgotten about.

Dades

sleepyheadh, just so you know, this thread has led to a bigger conversation that has required more people involved.

It's under discussion, and given there's no cards to remove or bans that are being served, we'd ask you give us a bit of time.

Thanks.

sleepyheadh

Thanks that's great, would appreciate to be kept in the loop. There is no rush, I just want it dealt with.

You can appreciate from my perspective nothing has happened, there has been no discussion on this thread. Is the investigation being carried out privately?

sleepyheadh

Just been banned again by RandyLonghorn. Exact same issue, so maybe Randy can come and explain his actions as well.

Again, The issue is mods just deleting posts they don't like. I keep hearing that there is a process here on boards; warning, ban, Pm the mod, go to DRF. However, this process is completely thrown out the window when mods like Spurious and Randy, decide they just don't want to deal with something so they delete it. Out of sight, out of mind.

The only reason, I made the post was because Randy was doing the exact thing the Spurious did, the exact reason why these thread was started. This issue needs to be dealt with.

randylonghorn

sleepyheadh wrote: »

I keep hearing that there is a process here on boards; warning, ban, Pm the mod, go to DRF.

Firstly, mods have every right to delete posts which they believe are against the rules, or simply likely to derail a thread, cause aggro, etc.

They don't have to warn someone they are going to do so, or even explain on thread or by PM.

The process you refer to refers to the penalties which MAY be applied to an individual poster, not to general clean-up of threads.

And by the way, mods may also skip warnings / infractions and skip straight to ban if they deem it an appropriate response to a particular post or set of posts.

Any poster may ofc appeal that determination in the DRF.

As to your ban:

1. Reference was made to this thread in the HPAT thread in LC (in fairness, I note that you were not the one to bring it up first, though you did respond).

2. In line with the general Boards rules that moderation decisions are not discussed on thread / discussions in DRF or here are not discussed in other forums, I deleted the relevant posts, and in that regard and also in response to the general tone of that thread over the last page or so put the following general warning on thread:

randylonghorn wrote: »

Firstly, please don't drag up discussions from Helpdesk or DRP here, it's against Boards general rules.

Secondly, please avoid getting into one-on-one tit-for-tat arguments. People won't always agree, it would be amazing if they did, but we would strongly encourage courtesy and the acceptance that others have different views. At the very least, try not to personalise issues or disagreements.

3. This was your response:

sleepyheadh wrote: »

randylonghorn wrote: »

Firstly, please don't drag up discussions from Helpdesk or DRP here, it's against Boards general rules.

Secondly, please avoid getting into one-on-one tit-for-tat arguments. People won't always agree, it would be amazing if they did, but we would strongly encourage courtesy and the acceptance that others have different views. At the very least, try not to personalise issues or disagreements.

Fair enough on the helpdesk, but the second guy only called me annoying. No need to delete his/her post. I'm a big boy, my feelings aren't that easily hurt.

I usually wouldn't comment, but since the actual matter in the helpdesk relates to this, and there has been no communication from the admin, expect for an explanation that they need more time, I feel that I will. Its really annoying when mods just delete comments that they don't like. Issue a warning, explain the rule to the person. Mods always explain that there is a process; warning, ban, pm the mod, go to DRF or helpdesk, etc.. However the whole system is thrown out the window when the mod just deletes the post.

You and everyone else were politely reminded of a site-wide Boards rule in one post, and pretty much the next post (even quoting mine) you chose to ignore it and do exactly what it says not to do, not alone breaking that rule but also going dead against the mod instruction that had just been posted.

That earned you a one week ban.


I do want to note one point which tbh I'm at a loss to explain myself: for some reason (despite the fact that I refreshed several times) your post above at 21.27 on this thread did not show up for me until I re-opened this thread now, hence why when you when you kept telling me to respond on this thread I was at a loss to know what I was supposed to be responding to. I can only put that down to some kind of weird Boards glitch, but it is very strange: I don't think I've ever seen that happen before (for a minute or two, sure, but not over an extended period of time).

sleepyheadh

randylonghorn wrote: »

Firstly, mods have every right to delete posts which they believe are against the rules, or simply likely to derail a thread, cause aggro, etc.

They don't have to warn someone they are going to do so, or even explain on thread or by PM.

The process you refer to refers to the penalties which MAY be applied to an individual poster, not to general clean-up of threads.

And by the way, mods may also skip warnings / infractions and skip straight to ban if they deem it an appropriate response to a particular post or set of posts.

Any poster may ofc appeal that determination in the DRF.

As to your ban:

1. Reference was made to this thread in the HPAT thread in LC (in fairness, I note that you were not the one to bring it up first, though you did respond).

2. In line with the general Boards rules that moderation decisions are not discussed on thread / discussions in DRF or here are not discussed in other forums, I deleted the relevant posts, and in that regard and also in response to the general tone of that thread over the last page or so put the following general warning on thread:



3. This was your response:



You and everyone else were politely reminded of a site-wide Boards rule in one post, and pretty much the next post (even quoting mine) you chose to ignore it and do exactly what it says not to do, not alone breaking that rule but also going dead against the mod instruction that had just been posted.

That earned you a one week ban.


I do want to note one point which tbh I'm at a loss to explain myself: for some reason (despite the fact that I refreshed several times) your post above at 21.27 on this thread did not show up for me until I re-opened this thread now, hence why when you when you kept telling me to respond on this thread I was at a loss to know what I was supposed to be responding to. I can only put that down to some kind of weird Boards glitch, but it is very strange: I don't think I've ever seen that happen before (for a minute or two, sure, but not over an extended period of time).

Maybe to answer your last point. My posts in this thread have to be approved before they appear, so that might explain why you didn't see my post? Im no expert so I could be completely wrong on that.

Ok, on to the matter at hand.

Firstly, just to make it painfully clear, I am not arguing the ban. We are in the helpdesk for a reason. Please don't move this to the DRF. I'll take the ban.

The reason I made the posts which Randy alludes to was simple. Randylonghorn, did the exact same thing that Spurious did, on the same thread, nearly a month ago.

Randy took issue with the post made by another boards member, which brought up this thread in the helpdesk. And also, another post, (which I could be wrong in saying) but was made by another boards member calling me annoying. Again, I can't easily verify the facts as I am now banned from the thread.

Randy, without any warning, deleted the posts in question. I then brought up the fact, that Randy was doing the exact thing which is being "discussed" in this thread. From my perspective it appears that nothing is happening here, although I am told discussions are happening?

This is what happened in bought cases, Spurious and RandyLonghorn, delete posts without giving any explanation. When the poster complains that the posts have been delete, they claim that the poster is not following mod instructions and proceed to ban them.

This to me, is totally wrong. What I have been told time and time again, is that there is a process on boards. A process which applies rigorously to me, but can be completely circumnavigated by mods such as Spurious, and RandyLonghorn.

As I explained to Randy at the time, if Randy had warned the poster, before deleting his/her comments, he would be informing them of a rule which they may not be aware, and also offer the possibility of the poster taking the post down voluntarily or editing the post.

==================================================
So to sum up. This new issue with Randylonghorn has nothing to do with the ban, I am accepting it, not arguing that. It just happened to be nearly identical to what Spurious did, and thus I think that it highlights the need for this issue to be dealt with by an admin and a judgement made. I would appreciate if as much as the discussion surrounding this issue be discussed on this thread. If it doesn't, you can understand that from my end, it appears that nothing is being done.

randylonghorn

randylonghorn wrote: »

I do want to note one point which tbh I'm at a loss to explain myself: for some reason (despite the fact that I refreshed several times) your post above at 21.27 on this thread did not show up for me until I re-opened this thread now, hence why when you when you kept telling me to respond on this thread I was at a loss to know what I was supposed to be responding to. I can only put that down to some kind of weird Boards glitch, but it is very strange: I don't think I've ever seen that happen before (for a minute or two, sure, but not over an extended period of time).

I've just been reminded that this forum is pre-moderated, hence sleepyheadh's post not showing up for a while! >.<

Thankfully, since I stepped down as a Catmod, I've had no reason to spend much time in here or in DRF, and had forgotten that!

At least I'm not gone (totally) blind! >.<

randylonghorn

sleepyheadh wrote: »

The reason I made the posts which Randy alludes to was simple. Randylonghorn, did the exact same thing that Spurious did, on the same thread, nearly a month ago.

Randy took issue with the post made by another boards member, which brought up this thread in the helpdesk. And also, another post, (which I could be wrong in saying) but was made by another boards member calling me annoying. Again, I can't easily verify the facts as I am now banned from the thread.

Randy, without any warning, deleted the posts in question. I then brought up the fact, that Randy was doing the exact thing which is being "discussed" in this thread. From my perspective it appears that nothing is happening here, although I am told discussions are happening?

This is what happened in bought cases, Spurious and RandyLonghorn, delete posts without giving any explanation. When the poster complains that the posts have been delete, they claim that the poster is not following mod instructions and proceed to ban them.

This to me, is totally wrong. What I have been told time and time again, is that there is a process on boards. A process which applies rigorously to me, but can be completely circumnavigated by mods such as Spurious, and RandyLonghorn.

As I explained to Randy at the time, if Randy had warned the poster, before deleting his/her comments, he would be informing them of a rule which they may not be aware, and also offer the possibility of the poster taking the post down voluntarily or editing the post.

==================================================
So to sum up. This new issue with Randylonghorn has nothing to do with the ban, I am accepting it, not arguing that. It just happened to be nearly identical to what Spurious did, and thus I think that it highlights the need for this issue to be dealt with by an admin and a judgement made. I would appreciate if as much as the discussion surrounding this issue be discussed on this thread. If it doesn't, you can understand that from my end, it appears that nothing is being done.

randylonghorn wrote: »

Firstly, mods have every right to delete posts which they believe are against the rules, or simply likely to derail a thread, cause aggro, etc.

They don't have to warn someone they are going to do so, or even explain on thread or by PM.

The process you refer to refers to the penalties which MAY be applied to an individual poster, not to general clean-up of threads.

The fact that you don't like that, and wish to discuss it here, is fine.

I have no idea as to the reason for the delay in a response from the Admins, but the fact that you are frustrated with that delay does not give you carte blanche to drag up the discussion from this thread in a thread in LC, to discuss moderation issues on thread outside the appropriate forums, or to deliberately go against a clear mod instruction not to do so.

I am not circumnavigating any process, I am moderating the forum as I have moderated it and other forums for about 8 years now, and as other mods on Boards do within the Boards rules and guidelines.

As I said above, you seem to be confusing the process by which penalties are applied to an individual poster if deemed necessary, and the general cleanup of threads so that they run smoothly. That's something that happens in forums all over Boards every day.

sleepyheadh

randylonghorn wrote: »

As I said above, you seem to be confusing the process by which penalties are applied to an individual poster if deemed necessary, and the general cleanup of threads so that they run smoothly. That's something that happens in forums all over Boards every day.

My point is being that by "clean-up" the posts as you put it, what you are actually doing is circumventing the penalty process that should be in place. The original poster that brought up the Helpdesk thread, should have receive a warning. But instead you just delete it, then when someone brings you up on not following the procedure you, you ban them for a week.

You are setting up these situations for yourself. I would like to hear if an admin, agrees or disagrees with the way Spurious and RandyLonghorn are dealing with these situations.

But again, this thread has not been dealt with yet, so this issue really is an addendum that should be looked at lastly.

Dades

Okay you've all had your input now, if you could leave it at that for now, thanks.

Once the initial complaint has been dealt with (there is more involved than I'm at liberty to explain) we can come back to the latest series of posts.

sleepyheadh, as long as you are not disputing a card or ban, and just making a general moderation complaint, we'll keep the discussion here and away from DR.

sleepyheadh

Dades wrote: »

Okay you've all had your input now, if you could leave it at that for now, thanks.

Once the initial complaint has been dealt with (there is more involved than I'm at liberty to explain) we can come back to the latest series of posts.

sleepyheadh, as long as you are not disputing a card or ban, and just making a general moderation complaint, we'll keep the discussion here and away from DR.

Absolutely not arguing with the ban.

One thing that I will say that Dades, I presume the involvement that you are not at liberty to discuss is surrounding other mods? I can't help but feel that it will be me that is left in the dark, and thus when you do make a decision, I won't be privy to the information you had, and thus may find it hard to understand your reasoning.

Dades

I owe it to you to ensure you get some manner of explanation. In the interim the wheels of bureaucracy run slowly.

sleepyheadh

Hi guys, just checking back in for my weekly reminder! Any updates so far?

Shield

sleepyheadh wrote: »

Hi guys, just checking back in for my weekly reminder! Any updates so far?

Hello.

As you know, this matter is being dealt with the the site Administrator Dades. If he doesn't post something on this thread within the next couple of days, I will give him a poke and let him know you have been asking for an update.

Thanks,

-Shield.

sleepyheadh

Any updates for this thread?

Spear

I've already since reminded the admins, and they're still considering/discussing it. Neither this, nor the other thread will be closed until answered.

sleepyheadh

That's great, as I've already stated. From my point of view nothing is happening. I would love to hear some updates from your guys!

When a conclusion is reached I will be looking for an explanation so brief updates may be easier then explaining what has been discussed over a month at this stage.

sleepyheadh

How much longer do I have to wait, until I win the longest "in progress" award?

Shield

sleepyheadh wrote: »

How much longer do I have to wait, until I win the longest "in progress" award?

Hi again.

I completely understand where you're coming from. It's clear that you've been waiting an above-average amount of time for this to be resolved. All I can do is remind you that Dades said "this thread has led to a bigger conversation". Because all Moderators and Administrators are unpaid volunteers, the more people that are involved in any discussion, the longer it will take because it's harder to get everyone together all at the same time due to real life stuff (jobs, families, commitments, etc.).

The Admins know it has been over a month since you requested a review, and I don't think anyone would fault you for checking to ensure that this hasn't been overlooked. Just for the record, neither me nor Spear are part of the "bigger conversation" that Dades refers to. We're just the Help Desk Moderators. When a site Administrator takes over a thread in here, me and Spear are obligated to let the Admin(s) direct the thread as they see fit. If Dades says that you will get an explanation, then you can stand on that. He's a man of his word. Even though the wait is understandably frustrating, please do not interpret the delay to mean "nothing is happening".

-Shield.

sleepyheadh

As I have already mentioned I would appreciate a brief update, hearing from someone who is actually involved in the discussion would be great.

sleepyheadh

Im doing a little head count, see how many hats and plates we need for the two month Anniversary! HAHA ;-)

Any breakthroughs in discussion guys?

Shield

sleepyheadh wrote: »

Im doing a little head count, see how many hats and plates we need for the two month Anniversary! HAHA ;-)

Count me in. Spear too I'd say. Any whiff of free stuff and us lowly minions are there in droves!

sleepyheadh wrote: »

Any breakthroughs in discussion guys?

I'd say we're drawing close to a 'breakthrough', if I may borrow your word. This thread has not been forgotten about - that I do know.

Forgive me if I sound redundant, but please just bear with Dades and the people who are involved in the 'bigger discussion' he referred to below. This will be resolved as soon as is humanly possible. Nobody likes having an issue that drags on for this long, and I think the Admins will agree with me on that.

Your patience and good humour regarding the untimely delay are very much welcome, and very much appreciated through this unforeseen and unfortunately delay. Good job we filled the vending machines and stocked up on loo roll!

-Shield.

sleepyheadh

Shield wrote: »

Count me in. Spear too I'd say. Any whiff of free stuff and us lowly minions are there in droves!


I'd say we're drawing close to a 'breakthrough', if I may borrow your word. This thread has not been forgotten about - that I do know.

Forgive me if I sound redundant, but please just bear with Dades and the people who are involved in the 'bigger discussion' he referred to below. This will be resolved as soon as is humanly possible. Nobody likes having an issue that drags on for this long, and I think the Admins will agree with me on that.

Your patience and good humour regarding the untimely delay are very much welcome, and very much appreciated through this unforeseen and unfortunately delay. Good job we filled the vending machines and stocked up on loo roll!

-Shield.

So are you a part of the "bigger conversation" now Shield?

Shield

sleepyheadh wrote: »

So are you a part of the "bigger conversation" now Shield?

No Sir, I am not. Neither is Spear. We just make sure that the processes are followed, and provide help where possible.

For complaints about forum moderation or Moderators, all we do is make sure everyone knows what the general structure is, and ensure those mentioned are aware of the fact. We also perform more routine janitorial tasks like changing the prefix of a thread, closing resolved threads, and so on.

-Shield.

sleepyheadh

Sorry for missing our 2 month anniversary guys..Roll on number 3 haha!

Zaph

As the OP has been sitebanned there's no point in leaving this thread open.