IVCA race canceled this Sunday

CramCycle

ROK ON wrote: »

+1
Even if it were free CI and clubs should reject closed road racing out of hand for 90% of events. One sure fire way to p1ss off people is to close a road. In Kenmare the Rally of the lakes gets road closures for two to three days every year. Last year every route out of Kenmare was closed for the best part of an entire Saturday.
The precedent set by having to close roads for any event is a dangerous one IMHO. If rules are followed within reason and there is sufficient marshalling then open road events can cause relatively little inconvenience for road users.

+1 Having marshalled at a few races and a good few club league races, open road racing with Marshalls, on the majority of courses I have been on, at worst delay a motorist by about 2.5 minutes. 15 seconds while the bunch approaches the corner, about 15 seconds for the bunch to clear the corner, another few seconds for the stragglers, car is released and gets held up by the bunch which is travelling at about 40kmph for a couple of minutes, on back roads, they are only slightly slower than a safe driving speed, on larger roads, room to overtake will present itself or they will have turned off within a few minutes. Locals still have access, so while some may be annoyed, they would be annoyed by a few kids out on the their bikes anyway, most will smile and wave and be on their way momentarily. Closed roads, from my understanding just serve to annoy the sh*t out of locals and if they were to become the norm would lead to councils looking to halt races in certain areas due to complaints and then for it to be escalated by someone like Finian McGrath to a national level.

cornet wrote: »

I have marshalled when roads were closed (Nat Champs) and at plenty of races when roads weren't closed.

My observations:
1. Even with closed roads a marshal has no authority to stop anyone - some motorists ignored them. I was with a uniformed Guard at a junction, I was amazed at the abuse he got from a couple of motorists.

My understanding was they had the power to instruct and for want of a better word obstruct, I live on the Dublin Marathon route, every year I hear the abuse the marshalls can get in my area, most people are out cheering people but there is always a minority who don't give a sh1t or claim ignorance to the event that is at the same time every year, you just won't win sometimes.

2. Closed roads inconvenience neighbours (I only live up the road) and you have to eventually let people through in the direction/flow of the race.

Open races do not have these issues

3. In non-closed races motorists accept that it is minor wait and most enjoy watching the race pass by. The key is to be polite and thank them for their patience.

Indeed, in my time only two motorists have gotten annoyed, most have asked about the event and had a lovely chat, one rammed the bunch from behind as he perceived that they were in the wrong and then tailgated the lead car and blocked off a road to shout profanities. In total from where he met the race to where he turned off, the race covered the distance in 2.5minutes, at the speed limit, you would do it in a minute, driving safely, in about 2 minutes, in total he was delayed for 1.5 minutes and attempted to seriously injure 30 people because of this, open or closed, these people will not change. The second sped up on approaching a marshall (me) and swung in to the ditch to get as close as possible when I got out of the way, he was breaking the speed limit and then reported me to the Gardai for stopping traffic, thankfully the Garda came down and seen all I was doing was waving at people. He got me to walk through what I do when a car and the cyclists were approaching, and was happy that I wasn't breaking the rules.

4. I think the Guards have better things to do then go around arresting cycling marshals.

I doubt you will find anyone who disgrees

5. Closed roads benefit cyclists more than motorists.

and even then, only in certain scenarios as everytime a locality feels pinned in or obstructed greatly, it goes against the cycle racing communitys chances of hosting an event or getting co operation in that locale the next time they are running it.

roverrules

07Lapierre wrote: »

That's correct...and the Gardaí tended to "Turn a blind eye" to this and race organisers were under the impression that in the event of an incident, the gardai would look at the situation sympathetically.

It has now been confirmed (in Fingal anyway) that that is no longer the case. The law of the land will be applied "to the letter".

It would have to be applied to the letter, otherwise someone innocent could be punished

Lusk_Doyle

Beasty wrote: »

Covered for any financial penalty - doesn't absolve them from any potential prosecution though

I would suspect that the cover provided by CI or rather, their insurer, might not be as good as it sounds as there may well be something in the policy wording that percludes cover being provided in the event of an illegal act (a breach of the road traffic act being one such example).

Lusk_Doyle

07Lapierre wrote: »

I Know..I'm agreeing with you. I don't think a CRO (Closed Road Order) is the way to go for club races anyway.

But for Large Open races with 100+ riders, I think its hard to argue against a CRO. A Rolling Road closure with garda assistance is a possible alternative to a full road closure, but as you say..the gardai are stretched and under resourced, so getting garda assistance is going to be difficult.

What's the army up to these days? Can't they be drafted in to help? It is a peace keeping mission of sorts!

wpd

Quote:
Originally Posted by 07Lapierre View Post
That's correct...and the Gardaí tended to "Turn a blind eye" to this and race organisers were under the impression that in the event of an incident, the gardai would look at the situation sympathetically.

It has now been confirmed (in Fingal anyway) that that is no longer the case. The law of the land will be applied "to the letter".
It would have to be applied to the letter, otherwise someone innocent could be punished


Why is this being applied "to the letter" in one region only. There were plenty of races run around the country this weekend with Garda and Marshalls and on some corners marshalls only. So my question is why is it only in one place??? Is the Garda not a national organisation the rules of the road apply to all 26 counties, so why is there a different interpretation here?

Beasty

wpd wrote: »

Why is this being applied "to the letter" in one region only. There were plenty of races run around the country this weekend with Garda and Marshalls and on some corners marshalls only. So my question is why is it only in one place??? Is the Garda not a national organisation the rules of the road apply to all 26 counties, so why is there a different interpretation here?

A position was relayed to the Swords Cycling Club around 3 years ago. That position was clearly being "driven" by one Superintendent based in Balbriggan. That essentially became "policy" for the whole of Fingal largely as a result of the involvement of the local council in discussions. However as I understand it pretty much all the racing that did take place in the county was within the area covered by Balbriggan

Since then discussions have taken place all the way up to ministerial level. However as I have already alluded to in this thread it is very difficult to argue against a member of AGS who is simply applying the letter of the law

Jawgap

wpd wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by 07Lapierre View Post
That's correct...and the Gardaí tended to "Turn a blind eye" to this and race organisers were under the impression that in the event of an incident, the gardai would look at the situation sympathetically.

It has now been confirmed (in Fingal anyway) that that is no longer the case. The law of the land will be applied "to the letter".
It would have to be applied to the letter, otherwise someone innocent could be punished


Why is this being applied "to the letter" in one region only. There were plenty of races run around the country this weekend with Garda and Marshalls and on some corners marshalls only. So my question is why is it only in one place??? Is the Garda not a national organisation the rules of the road apply to all 26 counties, so why is there a different interpretation here?

A lot of legislation contains the phrasing 'a Garda may.......' - the 'may' emphasises the Guard has discretion but so have his bosses. If the local super decides to limit the discretion of the beat Guard then that's the rule.

The 'problem' is these guys go to meetings etc and share ideas of interpretation.

It's also difficult to unwind - if they reversed themselves and there was an incident they'd be hammered for it.

wpd

Thanks Beasty and Jawgap for update.

wav1

No intention of going in to all the ins and outs or details of whats gone on over the past week,but following discussion after discussion and correspondence on top of correspondence I can confirm following clarity from where I wanted it [particularly insurers] the Drogheda Wheelers weekend of racing to include Ras na N'og,Peter Bidwell Memorial,and Coombes Connor Memorial races WILL ALL GO AHEAD AS SCHEDULED on Apr 18th/19th.We will be upping our game significantly as regards race staff etc as I feel we all have to do,but basically races will go ahead in the same manner that cycle races have always gone on previous,,End of statement..

onimpulse

wav1 wrote: »

No intention of going in to all the ins and outs or details of whats gone on over the past week,but following discussion after discussion and correspondence on top of correspondence I can confirm following clarity from where I wanted it [particularly insurers] the Drogheda Wheelers weekend of racing to include Ras na N'og,Peter Bidwell Memorial,and Coombes Connor Memorial races WILL ALL GO AHEAD AS SCHEDULED on Apr 18th/19th.We will be upping our game significantly as regards race staff etc as I feel we all have to do,but basically races will go ahead in the same manner that cycle races have always gone on previous,,End of statement..

Do you need help marshalling? Who can we contact to volunteer?

wav1

onimpulse wrote: »

Do you need help marshalling? Who can we contact to volunteer?

Thanks.PM myself or lennymc and we will put you in touch with our chief marshall.

RobFowl

If I'm hearing correctly seems IVCA races are off for the foreseeable future

ThisRegard

Twitter is pretty active with the news alright, nothing happening until permission given by the relevant councils.

Beasty

RobFowl wrote: »

If I'm hearing correctly seems IVCA races are off for the foreseeable future

Exploring Mondello. There is one race in Tullamore where the local Guards are completely (currently anyway) onside (EDIT - think the Dermot McGrath memorial at Roundwood was also mentioned as being "approved"). Looking at moving a little further away from Dublin with in particular Kildare options being investigated. TTs will continue as planned although as we've already done in Fingal they will be 100% within the RoTR

Beasty

Just to add - we never had any of these problems before lenny signed up. See he's trying to destroy MTB racing now also:pac:

lennymc

My work on the roads is done.....

07Lapierre

For Sale: one road bike, excellent condition, never raced on it...going cheap..will consider a straight swap for a TT bike! :pac:

greenmat

07Lapierre wrote: »

For Sale: one road bike, excellent condition, never raced on it...going cheap..will consider a straight swap for a TT bike! :pac:

For Sale: Former North County Dublin Cycle Racing Club. Will swap for Rally Club or Fox Hunting Club.

Lusk_Doyle

Beasty wrote: »

Just to add - we never had any of these problems before lenny signed up. See he's trying to destroy MTB racing now also:pac:

How he has time for all these disciplines with a young child amazes me! Some woman, his wife!

lennymc

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

How he has time for all these disciplines with a young child amazes me! Some woman, his wife!

Aye, she sure is a keeper. She is also my main sponsor. She is also registered on boards.

Lusk_Doyle

lennymc wrote: »

Aye, she sure is a keeper. She is also my main sponsor. She is also registered on boards.

Keeping tabs on you, eh? Too right!

bcmf

So judging by the email ,I presume all members got last night, it sounds like vets racing may yet happen.

Hi All,

Please find below a note regarding lead car driving and insurance cover.


Dear Member

In anticipation of racing resuming, it is important that all racing members check that their car insurance covers them to carry out lead/support car duties. All racing members are expected to be able to carry out this duty.

Regards
Though what exactly I need to ask my insurer I amnt sure as most if not all policies say that motor pacing and racing are not covered.
I would imagine they would say NO just to cover their ass

fat bloke

bcmf wrote: »

Though what exactly I need to ask my insurer I amnt sure as most if not all policies say that motor pacing and racing are not covered.
I would imagine they would say NO just to cover their ass

Not sure how this fits into the standard "social and domestic use" policy cover. I'd also presume the standard "computer says no"

07Lapierre

fat bloke wrote: »

Not sure how this fits into the standard "social and domestic use" policy cover. I'd also presume the standard "computer says no"

As long as your a volunteer and are not being paid to marshal, then its a "Social" activity?

CramCycle

In the case of an accident, you were out for a leisurely drive ?!?

lennymc

I would have also thought no, however, if you are driving/riding ahead of a race, not breaking any ROTR, I don't see how your insurance policy could be invalidated. You are not racing, hiring for reward, using for profit or any of that.

Jawgap

lennymc wrote: »

I would have also thought no, however, if you are driving/riding ahead of a race, not breaking any ROTR, I don't see how your insurance policy could be invalidated. You are not racing, hiring for reward, using for profit or any of that.

Your insurance is for social, domestic and pleasure uses - maybe there's some pleasure to be gained off the front, but hanging on for dear life at the back is not terribly pleasurable

If you were out in the car and operating as a lead car and had a prang, is there not the chance that a Guard could do you for driving without due care and attention?

lennymc

I was just riding(motorbike)/driving along gard, they all started following me!

I would imagine that if you were at fault the Gard could do you for driving without due care and attention, but, if you were driving along without a race following you and had a prang, they could equally do you for driving without due care and attention.

CramCycle

Jawgap wrote: »

If you were out in the car and operating as a lead car and had a prang, is there not the chance that a Guard could do you for driving without due care and attention?

Depends on if you were or not, I would presume that a lead car is being super attentive but, I wouldn't be mentioning the race unless asked, and at that, I would have just happened to be in front of it.

Also depend was the accident in the race or with a non related vehicle, two very different scenarios.

"Why were your hazards on if you were not involved?"
"I put on my indicators as a warning to other road users, the same as I do when moving cattle or I see my neighbours moving cattle, nice to be nice but nothing to do with me. "

fat bloke

07Lapierre wrote: »

As long as your a volunteer and are not being paid to marshal, then its a "Social" activity?

CramCycle wrote: »

In the case of an accident, you were out for a leisurely drive ?!?

lennymc wrote: »

I would have also thought no, however, if you are driving/riding ahead of a race, not breaking any ROTR, I don't see how your insurance policy could be invalidated. You are not racing, hiring for reward, using for profit or any of that.