Massive headache with N4 Cars

Tris_McC

Hi guys

First time posting here but I've dipped into the website over the years and it's really helped me on more than one occasion.
My issue is this: I bought a Ford Fiesta last December ('04, 1.2 Petrol, 40K Miles- so pretty low) from N4 Cars in the Palmerstown Retail Park. I'm a first time buyer so was vulnerable to not knowing exactly what questions I should be asking and what to look out for, but I brought a trusted friend who knows about cars and everything seemed to check out. The dealer said there were a few minor issues with the engine but they would all be taken care of, a new timing belt would be put in if needed and that it came with a 3 month warranty. It didn't come with a service logbook but it had recently passed its NCT and I ran a full check on motorcheck.ie and it was fine.
I had been shopping around for ages and this was the first car that seemed to tick all the boxes, so I went for it.
The problem started when I took the Fiesta to the Rathfarnham Ford Garage for a health check before a big road trip. Everything was ok except they flagged that the timing belt had never been changed, they said the timing belt cover looked like it had never been opened up, that the screws and seal had no physical signs of any disturbances and in their professional opinion it was still carrying the same belt that it came with from day one. That being the case, it was two years overdue a change and that it would set me back €370 to get the job done.
I brought the car straight back to Terry McGovern in N4 Cars to address the issue thinking I was covered under my warranty but he flat out refused to help me. He argued that his in-house mechanic had inspected the belt before selling and that it was fine. I asked him to please explain how a 10 year old belt is fine when it's two years expired, he then argued and insisted that the previous owner had changed it "at some point". I asked him for proof that it had been changed and he said he wasn't obligated to prove it, that his word was good enough. I asked *if* what he was saying was true, but he was unable to prove it, then when was I to know the belt's next due service? He looked at me condescendingly and literally plucked a month off the top of his head, he said "change it next... January, if you want to". It was at this point I knew what I was dealing with. I pressed him further and eventually he started to get angry and impatient and said if I was insisting on getting it done, the best he could do for me would charge cost of parts at €150, but he would first try to track down the previous owner and find out when the belt was changed. I was promised a call within a few days.
Weeks passed, my calls and messages were ignored until I decided to drive back up and speak with Terry in person as my warranty was about to expire. Terry wasn't there but I was told that their in-house mechanic had left, so if I still wanted to get a new belt it was now going to cost me €300 ("maybe a little bit more").
I tried calling Terry then and there, each time I called I was diverted straight to voicemail. He clearly has no interest in dealing with me and has washed his hands of the situation.
I spoke to a solicitor and he informed me that under the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980 the vehichle should have been of merchantable quality and fit for the purpose intended and roadworthy.
It is an offence under both road traffic legislation and the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980 to sell a car which is not roadworthy.
I now have to spend another €300 or more from my own pocket to fix a problem that should have been dealt with before the car was sold to me, and certainly an issue that should have been fixed by the seller within the 3 month warranty once I made them aware of the problem.
As such I am looking into taking this matter to court, so I hope this thread is a warning to anyone who might be considering buying from these guys and at the same time if anyone has any advice on how to proceed with my case I'd be very grateful.

Many thanks

Desolation Of Smug

Welcome to car ownership - a state of existence that generally costs money. When it needs new tyres, that will also be your problem, same with brakes, same with servicing. The timing-belt is your problem, you need to pay to get it done. It's not a road-worthiness issue, or a "fit for sale issue", it's a servicing issue, and as such, is your bill. Pay for a new timing belt, it isn't a warranty item, it's a servicing item. Otherwise you sound like the customer from hell tbh, not wanting to be hugely rude.

techie

Op, at least the Ford garage did not find any other faults.
Timing Belt is a serviceable item so up to the Owner.
Put this down to a bad experience.

Desolation Of Smug

techie wrote: »

Op, at least the Ford garage did not find any other faults.
Timing Belt is a serviceable item so up to the Owner.
Put this down to a bad experience.

because "a good car" wouldn't need a timing belt, ever? Or any money spent on it?

techie

As in Bad experience with the dealer, any reputable dealer would have sorted the customer out without all the above grief.

deandean

Cars cost money.

i am in the process of forking out 800 euro for a new clutch on a pre-loved car i bought just 3 months ago.

in your case it sounds to me like everyone including the main dealer is guessing as to whether or not the timing belt was replaced.
It's your car you need to look after it.

ironclaw

Desolation Of Smug wrote: »

because "a good car" wouldn't need a timing belt, ever? Or any money spent on it?

Its a serviceable item. Unlike say a head gasket, its going to have to be replaced at some point. The OP never mentions the mileage of the car. For instance, I have a 2006 car that has less than 25k km on it. Its barely run in as it was owned by an elderly person before me who rarely drove it. Is it overdue for some items? On paper by years, yes. By mileage, no where near it.

Generally speaking if buying a second hand car, you'd want to have a little spare change in your back pocket for minor things. People make the mistake of thinking they can just hop in and go. At the very least your probably going to have to service it, even if its 'Mint with a new service' and its unlikely, especially in Ireland, to be sitting on much thread.

OP, if the axle was bent, or the brakes rusted through or the clutch plate was destroyed I'd say you have a case as they would make the car a danger to drive. Here you have a classic case of Irish car ownership negligence. For the time and effort it would take to pursue a case that I believe you can't win, I'd just get the car up and going. And I say that as a guy who would champion taking any shady dealer to the cleaners if you could.

Special Circumstances

Dealer assures buyer that car will get timing belt if needed.
Dealer has no proof of proof of previous replacement making the belt over due from day one of purchase. Claims it was inspected and "it's grand".
Ford expert indicates it was likely never opened and is far from grand.

Dealer reverts to stereotypical "giving second hand car salesmen a bad rep" huff puff divert and avoid behaviour.


Boardsies say buyer is wrong to be disappointed and is being unreasonable.

Stheno

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Dealer assures buyer that car will get timing belt if needed.
Dealer has no proof of proof of previous replacement making the belt over due from day one of purchase. Claims it was inspected and "it's grand".
Ford expert indicates it was likely never opened and is far from grand.

Dealer reverts to stereotypical "giving second hand car salesmen a bad rep" huff puff divert and avoid behaviour.


Boardsies say buyer is wrong to be disappointed and is being unreasonable.

Op buys car with no service history then discovers it needs servicing?

dieselbug

The dealer said there were a few minor issues with the engine but they would all be taken care of, a new timing belt would be put in if needed and that it came with a 3 month warranty. It didn't come with a service logbook but it had recently passed its NCT and I ran a full check on motorcheck.ie and it was fine.

Yes, I'd agree it was poor form and shortsighted from the dealer. Any decent seller would have changed the belt and even used it as a selling point. It show's a poor attitude towards his customers and begs the question "what else would he take a chance on"

Put it down to experience and forget about court, your solicitor will be the big winner in court. Change the belt asap and be thankful it didnt break and give you a bigger headache.

Special Circumstances

Stheno wrote: »

Op buys car with no service history then discovers it needs servicing?

There's about 10% of used cars over 5 yr old with accurate service history.
Buyer gets verbal assurances ( I know I know, paper it's written on etc) which are not honoured. And the fundamental problem people pick up on is that the buyer believed the dealer? And not that the dealer seems to be doing his best allegedly to avoid a legitimate condition of sale?

I'm outta this one from here on.
FWIW I doubt there's any satisfaction to be got here. But to just accept it as ok dealer behaviour is wrong.

ironclaw

Special Circumstances wrote: »

But to just accept it as ok dealer behaviour is wrong.

We're wronging a dealer and his business based on the opinion of one mechanic in one garage. Get the mechanic to put his findings about the belt in writing. Then get another to back it up, in writing. Then we have a case to wrong the dealer perhaps. Until then, its potentially damaging social media speculation.

Again, its a serviceable item. Unless the dealer put on the receipt 'timing belt done' then its the OPs word against theirs, which is nonsense in this day and age.

I have no reason to doubt the OP but as a society we need to stop wronging businesses for issues that can be clarified before cash changes hands. Is the belt done? No. Grand, I'll be back tomorrow to pick up the car when it is.

I worked in retail for years and you couldn't pay me enough to do it again. No matter what we did, and we always went beyond what most would consider reasonable, we were wrong and facebook et al were the first to find out about it.

Tris_McC

Thank you all for your feedback, in many ways I'm grateful for the experience because as a first time buyer I've learnt lot about what to look out for in future car purchases that I likely wouldn't have flagged if it was a smooth transaction.
I don't think I was a customer from hell, I was polite and tried to resolve with problem with N4 Cars by calmly talking to them.
By the way, I do have it in writing from the Ford mechanic that the belt needs changing and I also have it in writing from a mechanic from a Fast Fit shop. Two professional independent evaluations both confirming the same thing has to mean something, right?
I accept cars are costly and will need servicing, it just doesn't seem right that I was told the belt would be changed if it needed during the original sale agreement and it was then left undone. I paid €3100 by the way.
At this stage it just seems to be more of an issue on principle. Anyway, learn and move on.
Thanks again for all the valuable feedback, both the sympathisers and the critics

Francie Barrett

Tris_McC wrote: »

The dealer said there were a few minor issues with the engine but they would all be taken care of, a new timing belt would be put in if needed and that it came with a 3 month warranty.

Do you have this on paper? If so, then he absolutely has to replace the timing belt.

Tris_McC wrote: »

It is an offence under both road traffic legislation and the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980 to sell a car which is not roadworthy.

If the car has a valid NCT then I would say it is certainly roadworthy.

whippet

Tris_McC wrote: »

Thanks again for all the valuable feedback, both the sympathisers and the critics

rather than get the ins and outs of principles and promises .. you have been told by two mechanics that the belt needs changing ... do this as soon as possible .. don't be arguing backwards and forth with a dealer who obviously has no intention of replacing it for you.

If the belt snaps and you need a new engine you will have no one to come back to on this as you are fully aware that the belt needs changing.

If you still feel that you shouldn't have to pay for it; you can take a small claims case against the dealer ... but just be sure to have all the evidence with you that the dealer said he would change the belt for you if needed - otherwise you are wasting your time.

Tris_McC

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Do you have this on paper? If so, then he absolutely has to replace the timing belt.

If the car has a valid NCT then I would say it is certainly roadworthy.

My friend was with me when Terry McGovern said that a new timing belt would be fitted if it needed it. So it's not on paper but I do have a witness to the verbal contract, any use?

punisher5112

The car should have been sols with the timing belt changed.

This is as plain as day but seems to be normal practice across a lot of dealers.

Op I would get the belt changed asap and bring him to the small claims court for the cost.

You paid a lot for the car so should expect a decent well serviced car for that price.

Bio Mech

Tris_McC wrote: »

My friend was with me when Terry McGovern said that a new timing belt would be fitted if it needed it. So it's not on paper but I do have a witness to the verbal contract, any use?

Not really any use sadly. I would just suck it up and move on.

N4 cars have a notoriously poor reputation. Any local mechanic will warn you off them really.

Don't trust anyone when you are buying a car would be my advice. Dealer or private. Some of course are decent but some are not. Judge every car on its own merits and get it all in writing. At a few hundred quid it could have been a more expensive lesson.

magentis

I would get the belt and water pump done ASAP.Not by ford but by a decent indy mechanic and take n4 cars to the small claims court,you should have no problem winning this one.
Keep the parts coming off the car and get it in writing from the mechanic that the belt is an old one.It may also be possible to find out how old the belt is from its markings.

massivetowns

I can't believe some of the replies on here....the buyer was told the car would get a new timing belt & it did not? How is the buyer responsible?? Take this to the small claims court no solicitor needed & costs around a tenner to file the case

massivetowns

I can't believe some of the replies on here....the buyer was told the car would get a new timing belt & it did not? How is the buyer responsible?? Take this to the small claims court no solicitor needed & costs around a tenner to file the case

BeatBoxing Blowfish

How did this go in the end for you?
I'm going to them later to view a car just wondering.

Pov06

BeatBoxing Blowfish wrote: »

How did this go in the end for you?
I'm going to them later to view a car just wondering.

I was there a few weeks ago and the atmosphere wasn't really pleasant. The other thing is test driving a car is impossible because they have to move every car out of the way to get the one you want out unless you are willing to wait ages.

colm_mcm

I honestly wouldn't buy a car there, I went to look at one for the missus there, and it's more akin to a scrapyard than a forecourt.

EazyD

Avoid in my honest opinion, these places have a rep on here for a reason. I'd personally search privately for the same car and use the additional money you'll save to bring a trusted mechanic along to inspect.

Bio Mech

A local mechanic who I very much trust has told me they are not to be trusted. He has ended up fixing many issues on their cars when they refuse too.

At best I would consider it a private sale and only pay private price. Get the car independently checked and accept that the warranty is essentially useless

blackvalley

Tris_McC wrote: »

Hi guys
. The dealer said there were a few minor issues with the engine but they would all be taken care of, a new timing belt would be put in if needed and that it came with a 3 month warranty.
Many thanks

I do not see how on earth you can be accused of being the " Customer from hell " as one poster ( now thankfully blocked ) suggests when you are simply attempting to get what you paid for and was agreed .
Surely the argument about if a timing belt was needed should have been resolved when a Ford main dealer said it was needed.
However as to what you should do now perhaps its time to put it behind you . The reason I say that is that I had almost the exact experience with this dealer myself. I wont bore you with the details but they are extremely similar, down to the age and value of the car involved.
Verbal agreements with the individual you mention are totally useless and you are beating your head off a stone wall in trying to enforce them .
I would no reccomend this dealer to my worst enemy and would suggest that if travelling the N4 drivers avert their gaze lest they could be lured into the showroom.

Seth Brundle

blackvalley wrote: »

Surely the argument about if a timing belt was needed should have been resolved when a Ford main dealer said it was needed.

Timing belt changing schedules (as with oil changes, coolant changes and so on) are recommendations from the manufacturers. You can't really use the word "need" to apply to a specific case unless you are looking at the condition of the belt & engine.

A timing belt could last the normal life of the car or it could last a few months. You never know. If the OP asked the Ford mechanic if the belt would last another year or two, he presumably would say that it could.

Whilst the OP was told that it would be replaced if needed, this could easily be legally construed to refer to the condition of the belt and not the age.

Similarly, timing belts would generally be regarded (even by manufacturers) as never needing to be changed. However, some chains do need replacement at some point!

I would also (in the back of my mind) keep the notion that the Ford mechanic is also an employee of the garage that would have potentially benefited were they to replace the timing belt.

IMO, the OP should move on.

blackvalley

kbannon wrote: »

IMO, the OP should move on.

Agreed

BeatBoxing Blowfish

Didn't bother going in the end, there was a vectra that they had for sale but it turns out that the garage isnt the best to be dealing with.

The guy on the phone had'nt a clue what I was talking about.
Not going to bother driving up if that's the level of customer care!

Dublin Mum19

Im Currently having the same problems from N4 cars , Can someone help me to Identify his correct business name ? I Bought the Car in Sept 2015 from Oct 2015 the car start giving me problem. From Nov to Now Im still having problem with the Car and Im in the garage every 2nd week since Jan fixing every single thing that goes wrong in the car. Ring *snip* but he said he could not help me as the Car is out of Warranty considering the problem start since Dec 2015. I have my Car checked by the Official garage of the Car Brand they gave me diagnostic to start with. On what need to be done in the car, I have to spend 400 euro to get it done ( but this might not be the end of this is just to start with) and since Jan to Now I already have spend 500 euro so far.

I will grateful if you could help me on his exact business name because according to the facebook review N4 Cars Sales is not his correct business name that is registered? I was hoping some one can help me on this question? Any one else who have the same problem with him recently ?

Mod: Please don't name people on thread.

ironclaw

@Dublin Mum19, what is the car and what is the problem? I ask as it largely depends on if the garage is responsible e.g A car with 300k km on it and the turbo fails is not the fault of the garage, likewise a brake pads / clutch wearing out (Unless they were sold as being serviced in Sept. 2015) is not a reasonable issue for the garage to address.

Did you not go back to the garage in Oct 2015? If you did, was any action taken? Did the car come with a warranty?

shietpilot

"N4 Car Sales" is the correct registered business name. If you're looking for the company name, I am not sure. You might have to ring the Company Registrations Office.

Dublin Mum19

shietpilot Thank you thats very helpful

glic71rods46t0

There are 2 registered names "N4 Car Sales"
first business name is owned by Terence McGovern with an address of 23 Finnstown Hall apartments Haydens lane Lucan Co Dublin

the second business name is owned by TMCH Holdings Ltd with an address of 925 Ladycastle The K Club Straffan Co Kildare. This company has no assets and is owned by............................................................................................................................................. yes, you've guessed it Terence McGovern, now with an address of 925 Ladycastle The K Club Straffan Co Kildare

Dublin Mum19

@Fencer if I end up going further on this which one should I use in putting the complaint to the registered name or the TMCH Holding Ltd?

ironclaw

@Dublin Mum19, I got your PM and as regards content, I see no objection to posting it publicly, but I will leave it up to you.

The chain of events however is:

- Warranty for 3 months
- Minor problem in Nov, N4 Cars mechanic sorted this.

What I don't understand is when you had the larger problems, Dec to now, did you rectify them and with whom?

At the end of the day, the warranty was for 3 months (Which is an absolute red flag btw) so after December, they are effectively off the hook in terms of paying for the repair. What you will need to do now is prove the car was defective in the first place, almost 7 months after the sale. This is going to be incredibly hard to do, if not impossible. You'll need to show that you brought the car back within a time frame, that you gave ample opportunity for the car to be fixed and failing that, reports from independent and verifiable garages that the car needed significant repairs only a short time after the sale i.e. You couldn't say a report from Feb 2016 reflected the state of the car in August 2015.

My personal advice is fix the car as best you can, get it roadworthy, and sell it. The chances of you winning a case against any car dealer is slim with a large expense and time effort to do so. Cars, on the whole, are filled with consumable items. Its a grey area to say how long a certain part should last i.e. How long is a seller on the hook for a clutch? Pads or brakes? It would be quite different based on the driver i.e. A taxi driver might do a set of pads in 3 months, an old dear going to mass might take 3 years. Another example might be 'long term' parts such as coil packs or turbos, these eventually go based on use but it might only be once in the lifetime of the car. Is the seller obliged to account for these things? Or is the buyer supposed to have done their homework and understand 'Yes, this car is known to need coilpacks at X miles' Its not cut and dry. You can't strictly apply the standard consumer sale acts as you just can't compare a household good to a car.

I'd like to state, I'm absolutely on your side in terms of justice for a fair price for a fair car, and I have zero connection to the trade, I'm just warning you that brass necks are extra thick in the car game and you're unlikely to see a cent of the money or effort you put in.

Dublin Mum19

This is the exact reason Why I did not go back in Dec. My warranty run out on fist week of Dec and last week in Dec engine light went on. So he will just tell me im out of warranty.

Thats why I said to myself get it fix maybe its just some thing small I did not mind paying for it . But Now That I got a full report from the Brand Maker This will cost me near to a thousand maybe more aside from the 500 euro i have spend so far.

All I did is 3500 Miles since I got the car can that make Breakpads 90% gone and Break disk to be replace after 3 months of driving? If it serviced and Check before it was given to me? Problem of the gear stick still remains but as per the brand maker this just need to extract the oil and clean and change the oil surely this should have been done when they service the car before it was given to me.

Im a mum of two and work parttime I havent got much money to fix a car every little things in the car. So im trying to concentrate on fixing the big problem for months. For the same reason why I bought this car in Sept thinking if I bought a car from a garage it will be NCT , serviced , all in good conditioned as promised because it will save me more time and money but its NOT. Just end up costing me more money and time wasted.

This is my 4th Car every time i bought the Car in the garage. I never had any of this kind of problem with other garage in the past. Never had a breakdown or service required after 3 months of buying a car from the other garage.
I thought there is more security in buying Cars from a garage. Until now:(

Shocking to see that im not the only one with this problem with N4 Cars there seems to be a good amount of people has complaint about this garage. My car still in the Mechanic until now since Im left with no choice but to pay for it my self.
There must be a way to report this garage as its just not fair that people who workhard to save money to pay for a good car! believing its a good car has to suffer just not fair.

savagethegoat

as regards brakepads, there is nothing at all wrong with pads 90% gone. They wouldn't need replacing at a service with that wear.

If you buy a used car, you have to accept that many items will be worn and will need replacement at some stage, maybe almost straight away. That's why you should get a mechanic to check out a car, so that you know exactly how used it is.

Dublin Mum19

Break pads are the lease of My Concern but break disk need to be change and Engine problem ???

ironclaw

Dublin Mum19 wrote: »

Break pads are the lease of My Concern but break disk need to be change and Engine problem ???

Discs are once again consumables. They will not be changed in the course of a normal service. 'Service' is a very broad term. Most garages, its an oil change and filters. Nothing more. You certainly would not change pads, discs or other more expensive consumables unless they were needed. Its part and parcel of buying a car, these need to be checked. If they have not been done, and their is no documented history of them being done, and the mileage suggests they should be done, then this should be factored in the car.

That however, as you said, is the least of your worries. The engine problem needs a full diagnosis of what exactly is wrong. Remember, the issue you saw in Dec may have been fixed or be masking a deeper problem. As an example, a faulty MAF Sensor may actually be a breathing hose issue or perhaps a turbo leak. Cars are complex machines unfortunately.

The ultimately reality is, the car could have had an underlying fault that the dealer may have had no knowledge of. For example, I bought a car off a gent here on Boards and a few months later it needed the entire breather / air tubing system replaced. There's no way this could have been spotted when buying and its a common fault with the car in question. These things can and do happen. I don't hold any ill will at all, there is no way either of us would have been able to foresee the fault when we did the deal.

From what you have described, unless I'm missing something, I do believe the dealer acted in good faith and sold the car truthfully. I think you were just unlucky with an underlying fault. My personal advice is to cut your losses and run. Get the car roadworthy and sell it on.

porsche boy

savagethegoat wrote:

as regards brakepads, there is nothing at all wrong with pads 90% gone.

Are you being sarcastic?

savagethegoat

porsche boy wrote: »

Are you being sarcastic?

why would you think that? Brake pads 90% worn work just the same as new ones.

mickdw

savagethegoat wrote: »

why would you think that? Brake pads 90% worn work just the same as new ones.

Yes they do however it is expected that one will change items that won't reach next service. So if you take say 40k miles from a set of pads, that last 10 percent will only do 4k miles even if you can wear them right to the metal and they are all worn even.
Pads 90 percent worn are finished.

savagethegoat

they are 90% worn now, who knows how worn they were at the last service, which was months ago by all accounts. 3500 miles done, so they would have been around 80% at the service.....

pajo1981

Was thinking of buying a GS450 they have. Prob give them a miss now. Thanks for heads up.

shietpilot

I looked at a car there once and it didn't leave a positive vibe

Das Reich

I bought a skoda octavia 2008 more than an year ago. Car is great and I had no problem with. But you belive or not after days I brought the car home I did realized it came without the step tyre.

Truckermal

pajo1981 wrote: »

Was thinking of buying a GS450 they have. Prob give them a miss now. Thanks for heads up.

Ha Ha they still have it!