Listing of convicted drug cheats created

ultraman1

http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/251077-News-from-the-Track-and-Field-World/article/30602-RRM-Unveils-List-of-Convicted-Drug-Cheats#.VRJ9E71FDqA

average_runner

ultraman1 wrote: »

http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/251077-News-from-the-Track-and-Field-World/article/30602-RRM-Unveils-List-of-Convicted-Drug-Cheats#.VRJ9E71FDqA

Doesnt contain any of the past irish athletes?

TRR_the_turd

average_runner wrote: »

Doesnt contain any of the past irish athletes?

contains Cathal Lombard!

rom

no Martin Fagan on it.

rovers_runner

rom wrote: »

no Martin Fagan on it.

He's on the list "are previously banned but eligible, but only took drugs because they felt sad etc."

If all those athletes were published they probably would be as well to just list the clean ones.

wrstan

You sure that's not a list of future candidates for Nike sponsorship? :-/

who would you sponsor?

Chivito550

rovers_runner wrote: »

He's on the list "are previously banned but eligible, but only took drugs because they felt sad etc."

If all those athletes were published they probably would be as well to just list the clean ones.

What a stupid comment. There are about 500 times as many clean athletes as there are dirty ones. Not just counting elite athletes, but international standard, national standard, and club athletes.

rom

rovers_runner wrote: »

He's on the list "are previously banned but eligible, but only took drugs because they felt sad etc."

He wasn't too sad with the win in Mallow and course record bonus on Sunday.

Clearlier

This is a nice idea but it's not new and it's at the moment badly executed with a far from comprehensive list. Wikipedia have one here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_athletics. Their list is significantly more comprehensive with about 3 times the number of dopers than are on this one. It's not a time limited thing either as I can't see Martin Fagan on there but there are people included who served bans before he did.



I don't know whether it's the authors of the website or the author of this article that is at fault here but at the moment if you're looking to find a comprehensive list of dopers you're much better off looking elsewhere.

Itziger

rom wrote: »

He wasn't too sad with the win in Mallow and course record bonus on Sunday.

Not trying to stir any dirt now here, purely curious, how much would he have got for Sunday's win and record?

rom

https://mallowtenmile.wordpress.com/course/
750 Euro

average_runner

rom wrote: »

https://mallowtenmile.wordpress.com/course/
750 Euro

But last i heard he gives it to charity.

rom

average_runner wrote: »

But last i heard he gives it to charity.

If he has issue accepting the money then don't accept the prize money if he is looking to regain credibility.

Dubgal72

rom wrote: »

If he has issue accepting the money then don't accept the prize money if he is looking to regain credibility.

That man is brave, full stop. I've seen him at a few road races now and he mostly looks kind of lonely. He turns up at these races, week after week, to often hostile and preconceived ideas. He clearly loves running to do that.. I think I'd curl up and die rather than face a few thousand people I *thought* hated me, week after week. Fair play to him. Give him a break, he made a mistake and has 'done the time'. No need to make him keep paying. He's credible in my book (for what that's worth) and I would have been of the 'one strike and you're out' school.

tang1

Dubgal72 wrote: »

That man is brave, full stop. I've seen him at a few road races now and he mostly looks kind of lonely. He turns up at these races, week after week, to often hostile and preconceived ideas. He clearly loves running to do that.. I think I'd curl up and die rather than face a few thousand people I *thought* hated me, week after week. Fair play to him. Give him a break, he made a mistake and has 'done the time'. No need to make him keep paying. He's credible in my book (for what that's worth) and I would have been of the 'one strike and you're out' school.

Well said.

rom

Its sport. The normal rules of life don't apply. He probably could be a really nice guy for all I know. But on one hand we have athletes like Rob getting done out of olympic medals being all forgiving to our own is a bit rich. It should be a life ban. Sport is not a right.

menoscemo

Dubgal72 wrote: »

That man is brave, full stop. I've seen him at a few road races now and he mostly looks kind of lonely. He turns up at these races, week after week, to often hostile and preconceived ideas. He clearly loves running to do that.. I think I'd curl up and die rather than face a few thousand people I *thought* hated me, week after week. Fair play to him. Give him a break, he made a mistake and has 'done the time'. No need to make him keep paying. He's credible in my book (for what that's worth) and I would have been of the 'one strike and you're out' school.

Disagree totally.
Having talked to old fellas and 'real runner' types at various races, they are almost universally against him being there.
From what I have seen and heard his whole depression/1 time only story is total BS but one a lot seem to have fallen for.
People should also consider the fact that any drugs he took in the past are most likely still giving him a benefit today.

It seems it is only a small group up in his home town that support him.



Oh and in answer to Rom's point, I have met Martin in the past and he is a really nice guy; but that has got nothing to do with anything really has it?

tang1

rom wrote: »

Its sport. The normal rules of life don't apply. He probably could be a really nice guy for all I know. But on one hand we have athletes like Rob getting done out of olympic medals being all forgiving to our own is a bit rich. It should be a life ban. Sport is not a right.

Nobody here is condoning Fagan's drug taking, but hes abided by the rules set out by the athletics governing bodies and thats not his fault. He accepts zero money he wins at races, be it course bonuses or whatever, i know that for a fact. Its all handed back or goes to a charity, until the rules are changed and it is a lifetime ban thats always going to be the way i'm afraid. Look at the rubbish today with Nike and Gatlin & Gay.

I'm a big fan of the man and was shocked when i heard he was caught, i do believe he should have gotten a life ban, but again thats not his fault its the rules that are in place. I'm delighted to see him back cause if he is suffering from depression, its proven running helps this and i'm speaking from first hand knowledge in that regard. If races dont want him running its up to them to say so.

menoscemo

tang1 wrote: »

Nobody here is condoning Fagan's drug taking, but hes abided by the rules set out by the athletics governing bodies and thats not his fault. He accepts zero money he wins at races, be it course bonuses or whatever, i know that for a fact. Its all handed back or goes to a charity, until the rules are changed and it is a lifetime ban thats always going to be the way i'm afraid. Look at the rubbish today with Nike and Gatlin & Gay.

Even if I take your word on that, what about the guy in 2nd? why doesn't he hand that money to him instead?

tang1

menoscemo wrote: »

Even if I take your word on that, what about the guy in 2nd? why doesn't he hand that money to him instead?

I cant answer that i'm afraid, so no point trying to.

Dubgal72

rom wrote: »

Its sport. The normal rules of life don't apply. He probably could be a really nice guy for all I know. But on one hand we have athletes like Rob getting done out of olympic medals being all forgiving to our own is a bit rich. It should be a life ban. Sport is not a right.

Bullsh%t. Walk in his shoes before you judge him. The system sucks and he f^cked up in it.
The normal rules of life don't apply? Too bloody right they don't if you go by the whispers and rumours of 'who does and who doesn't' up there on Mt Olympus. We send humans to do superhuman things with their bodies under extreme conditions and then we close in when they show they have feet of clay? Give me a break....

Dubgal72

menoscemo wrote: »

Disagree totally.
Having talked to old fellas and 'real runner' types at various races, they are almost universally against him being there.
From what I have seen and heard his whole depression/1 time only story is total BS but one a lot seem to have fallen for.
People should also consider the fact that any drugs he took in the past are most likely still giving him a benefit today.

It seems it is only a small group up in his home town that support him.



Oh and in answer to Rom's point, I have met Martin in the past and he is a really nice guy; but that has got nothing to do with anything really has it?

Exactly. That is my point. He is one brave man to face public disapproval like that time after time. Instead of condemning him, we should be learning from him and others like him. What brings an athlete to the brink like that? What makes them risk everything in order to achieve a sullied dream?

menoscemo

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Exactly. That is my point. He is one brave man to face public disapproval like that time after time. Instead of condemning him, we should be learning from him and others like him. What brings an athlete to the brink like that? What makes them risk everything in order to achieve a sullied dream?

Fair enough, I see your point (i.e. you are not defending him, just saying he is brave) but I think it's just unfair he is taking away prize money, publicity and sponsorships from other clean athletes.

nobody told me

menoscemo wrote: »

Fair enough, I see your point (i.e. you are not defending him, just saying he is brave) but I think it's just unfair he is taking away prize money, publicity and sponsorships from other clean athletes.

What publicity and sponsorship would be gained by winning the mallow 10??

NetwerkErrer

tang1 wrote: »

Nobody here is condoning Fagan's drug taking, but hes abided by the rules set out by the athletics governing bodies and thats not his fault. He accepts zero money he wins at races, be it course bonuses or whatever, i know that for a fact. Its all handed back or goes to a charity, until the rules are changed and it is a lifetime ban thats always going to be the way i'm afraid. Look at the rubbish today with Nike and Gatlin & Gay.

+1. The responsibility on bans lie with the IOC, IAAF and WADA. He has a right to compete now if he wants. Do I like it, no but he can and he's not to blame for going out and running races.

The authorities are the people who have to take all the blame and responsibility for ban lengths, they set the rules and the athletes can't be blamed for returning when the ban is up.

I'm all for life bans but they will never happen.

pconn062

What I don't like is the hypocrisy of it, we are allowed to vilify Justin Gatlin or the Ethopian doper Bezebah who runs for Spain and won the Euro cross a few years ago but because Fagan is Irish it's all "Oh he served his time, leave him alone". Yes, he did serve his time like all dopers serve their time but he brought disgrace to Irish athletics and people are entitled to complain about him showing up at races and the fact that he can compete again. The rules say he is allowed to compete but nowhere does it say he has to be welcomed back by the athletics community. Do people feel sympathy as well for all the Russian dopers who denied our race walkers medals recently?

tang1

pconn062 wrote: »

What I don't like is the hypocrisy of it, we are allowed to vilify Justin Gatlin or the Ethopian doper Bezebah who runs for Spain and won the Euro cross a few years ago but because Fagan is Irish it's all "Oh he served his time, leave him alone". Yes, he did serve his time like all dopers serve their time but he brought disgrace to Irish athletics and people are entitled to complain about him showing up at races and the fact that he can compete again. The rules say he is allowed to compete but nowhere does it say he has to be welcomed back by the athletics community. Do people feel sympathy as well for all the Russian dopers who denied our race walkers medals recently?

But hes still playing by the rules set out, not trying to defend the man at all, i said he should have been banned for life, fullstop, end of. But until the rules change, the likes of Gatlin, Bezebah and Fagan will continue to return after there bans and compete.

The one thing about Fagan, and its no defence, he aint lining his pockets with money, he gives his winnings from races back. I will never buy another pair of Nike runners after they commited to endorse Gatlin & Gay.

NetwerkErrer

pconn062 wrote: »

What I don't like is the hypocrisy of it, we are allowed to vilify Justin Gatlin or the Ethopian doper Bezebah who runs for Spain and won the Euro cross a few years ago but because Fagan is Irish it's all "Oh he served his time, leave him alone". Yes, he did serve his time like all dopers serve their time but he brought disgrace to Irish athletics and people are entitled to complain about him showing up at races and the fact that he can compete again. The rules say he is allowed to compete but nowhere does it say he has to be welcomed back by the athletics community. Do people feel sympathy as well for all the Russian dopers who denied our race walkers medals recently?

I agree with that too pconn. He made a choice and he has to live with the consequences. He was completely wrong and is the only one who can be blamed for his actions. I'm also just saying that it's the authorities that have to take the blame for ban lengths and not the athlete. Does that mean I like to see convicted dopers out competing, hell no but I don't think you can blame the athlete for returning.

The issue of him doping only lies with him and nobody else but he can't be blamed for returning. If the issue is with athletes returning after a ban, it should be the authorities that are blamed. I'm not one for forgiving dopers for what they done and I won't do it with Fagan either. He cheated and has to live with the fact that he is tarnished which is right in my opinion. He doesn't have to be accepted back by the athletics community and he shouldn't be but you can't blame him for being allowed to return.

average_runner

rom wrote: »

If he has issue accepting the money then don't accept the prize money if he is looking to regain credibility.

And if his running is doing something good like generating funds for a charity the man likes, that is credibility to me.

average_runner

rom wrote: »

Its sport. The normal rules of life don't apply. He probably could be a really nice guy for all I know. But on one hand we have athletes like Rob getting done out of olympic medals being all forgiving to our own is a bit rich. It should be a life ban. Sport is not a right.

Its not his fault he didn't get a life ban. Take that up with the greedy sport authorities, the reason they won't give life bans, because they will lose money if top athletes get kicked out.
Its all about greed from the top

average_runner

menoscemo wrote: »

Disagree totally.
Having talked to old fellas and 'real runner' types at various races, they are almost universally against him being there.
From what I have seen and heard his whole depression/1 time only story is total BS but one a lot seem to have fallen for.
People should also consider the fact that any drugs he took in the past are most likely still giving him a benefit today.

It seems it is only a small group up in his home town that support him.



Oh and in answer to Rom's point, I have met Martin in the past and he is a really nice guy; but that has got nothing to do with anything really has it?

No offence, but the drugs he took a few years ago aren't standing to him now as his quality was always able to beat the weak competition of home talent.
Drugs or no drugs he was always ahead of them

He might of took the drugs for depression or to beat the best in the world. But he didnt need them for the races he now runs

average_runner

pconn062 wrote: »

What I don't like is the hypocrisy of it, we are allowed to vilify Justin Gatlin or the Ethopian doper Bezebah who runs for Spain and won the Euro cross a few years ago but because Fagan is Irish it's all "Oh he served his time, leave him alone". Yes, he did serve his time like all dopers serve their time but he brought disgrace to Irish athletics and people are entitled to complain about him showing up at races and the fact that he can compete again. The rules say he is allowed to compete but nowhere does it say he has to be welcomed back by the athletics community. Do people feel sympathy as well for all the Russian dopers who denied our race walkers medals recently?

But Fagan isn't going back to the world stage, he is just running races in Ireland that would probably be fun runs to him from where he was.

tang1

average_runner wrote: »

his quality was always able to beat the weak competition of home talent.

Mark Christie beat him last summer over 5k, so its not all weak competition.

Krusty_Clown

pconn062 wrote: »

Do people feel sympathy as well for all the Russian dopers who denied our race walkers medals recently?

How can we sympathize with them when we don't know anything about them? You're failing to separate two distinct things here: 'the act' and 'the person'. You can feel deep moral outrage about what an individual has done, while still sympathizing with the person. Nobody is condoning what Fagan has done. So can we sympathize with Fagan while feeling moral outrage at the acts perpetrated by the Russian walkers? Absolutely - in just the same manner as we can be angered by what Fagan has done, while still reserving some compassion for him as a person.

Might we feel sympathetic towards the Russian walkers in the future? Who knows.

rom

average_runner wrote: »

No offence, but the drugs he took a few years ago aren't standing to him now as his quality was always able to beat the weak competition of home talent.
Drugs or no drugs he was always ahead of them

He might of took the drugs for depression or to beat the best in the world. But he didnt need them for the races he now runs

Attempting to achieve the A standard presumably, in Rotherdam next month is hardly low key.

average_runner

rom wrote: »

Attempting to achieve the A standard presumably, in Rotherdam next month is hardly low key.

Fair enough, hadn't known he was running outside Ireland.


But surely all this giving out, shouldn't be at Fagan but at the sports authority instead

pconn062

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

How can we sympathize with them when we don't know anything about them? You're failing to separate two distinct things here: 'the act' and 'the person'. You can feel deep moral outrage about what an individual has done, while still sympathizing with the person. Nobody is condoning what Fagan has done. So can we sympathize with Fagan while feeling moral outrage at the acts perpetrated by the Russian walkers? Absolutely - in just the same manner as we can be angered by what Fagan has done, while still reserving some compassion for him as a person.

Might we feel sympathetic towards the Russian walkers in the future? Who knows.

I don't see why Fagan as a person deserves our sympathy anymore than the Russian dopers do? He chose to dope, as an adult he took that decision and now needs to accept that within the athletics circle his name is tarnished. Doping is a deliberate act in order to gain illegal advantage over your opponents, and it's something I find hard to sympathise with. I also don't see what is there to sympathise over? After a short ban (two years is short) he is back competing at the highest level of road racing in the country so it hasn't been a bad hand dealt to him. I feel more sympathy for the Irish athletics fans who were let down by Fagan and his actions, all the juniors who would have looked up to him.

tang1

average_runner wrote: »

But surely all this giving out, shouldn't be at Fagan but at the sports authority instead

I'd say most of the giving out is because the man had huge potential, he didnt need to go next or near drugs to help with his running. He could have been a decent international level runner without the help of drugs.

menoscemo

tang1 wrote: »

Mark Christie beat him last summer over 5k, so its not all weak competition.

Paul Pollock absolutely destroyed him over 5 mile up north at Christmas. 20-30 seconds I think.

menoscemo

nobody told me wrote: »

What publicity and sponsorship would be gained by winning the mallow 10??

He is sponsored by a running shop, maybe if the 2nd place guy had won he would have been offered sponsorship by a simialar shop, or even used the prize money to fund his training or racing?
As for publicity are we not talking about it here?

johnruns

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

How can we sympathize with them when we don't know anything about them? You're failing to separate two distinct things here: 'the act' and 'the person'. You can feel deep moral outrage about what an individual has done, while still sympathizing with the person. Nobody is condoning what Fagan has done. So can we sympathize with Fagan while feeling moral outrage at the acts perpetrated by the Russian walkers? Absolutely - in just the same manner as we can be angered by what Fagan has done, while still reserving some compassion for him as a person.

Might we feel sympathetic towards the Russian walkers in the future? Who knows.

Why sympatise with any of them,the 'person'(gatlin gay the Russians Fagan etc.)all chose to do the 'act'(dope and cheat)why make Fagan the exception just because he is Irish and came up with an excuse which strikes a cord with a lot of people at the min.

Krusty_Clown

pconn062 wrote: »

I don't see why Fagan as a person deserves our sympathy anymore than the Russian dopers do? He chose to dope, as an adult he took that decision and now needs to accept that within the athletics circle his name is tarnished. Doping is a deliberate act in order to gain illegal advantage over your opponents, and it's something I find hard to sympathise with. I also don't see what is there to sympathise over? After a short ban (two years is short) he is back competing at the highest level of road racing in the country so it hasn't been a bad hand dealt to him. I feel more sympathy for the Irish athletics fans who were let down by Fagan and his actions, all the juniors who would have looked up to him.

The drug taking was wrong. We get that. We're all on board so far. Ain't nobody saying anything other than it was wrong, and cheating. Telling us who we should and shouldn't feel sorry for? That I don't get. It's not an athletics thing. It has nothing to do with running. Same goes for the Russians. What they did was awful.. Terrible. Unconscionable. But can we sympathize? Who knows? Don't know anything about them.

johnruns wrote: »

Why sympatise with any of them,the 'person'(gatlin gay the Russians Fagan etc.)all chose to do the 'act'(dope and cheat)why make Fagan the exception just because he is Irish and came up with an excuse which strikes a cord with a lot of people at the min.

Not making Fagan or anyone else an exception and certainly not making excuses for Fagan, Gatlin or the Russians. I also didn't say that I have sympathy for him.

NetwerkErrer

average_runner wrote: »

Fair enough, hadn't known he was running outside Ireland.


But surely all this giving out, shouldn't be at Fagan but at the sports authority instead

Yes, the point I was trying to get across. The reason he is still allowed to compete is because of the IAAF, IOC and WADA. I wasn't trying to defend him in any manner for doping. If people have an issue with banned athletes competing, they should be tearing strips out of the authorities for leaving them compete. Not the athletes competing.

Chivito550

tang1 wrote: »

But hes still playing by the rules set out, not trying to defend the man at all, i said he should have been banned for life, fullstop, end of. But until the rules change, the likes of Gatlin, Bezebah and Fagan will continue to return after there bans and compete.

The one thing about Fagan, and its no defence, he aint lining his pockets with money, he gives his winnings from races back. I will never buy another pair of Nike runners after they commited to endorse Gatlin & Gay.

If Nike came knocking on Fagan's door offering him a multi-million dollar contract do you think he'd say no? Get out of it!

tang1

Chivito550 wrote: »

If Nike came knocking on Fagan's door offering him a multi-million dollar contract do you think he'd say no? Get out of it!

And where in my post did i say he wouldn't?

Chivito550

tang1 wrote: »

And where in my post did i say he wouldn't?

You were trying to make out that Fagan was a charitable do-gooder, while Gatlin was a shameful monster part of a corporate machine. Not comparing like with like. Easy to give away prize money when it is such a small amount.

Chivito550

If anything I have more sympathy for the Russians than Fagan. Fagan had a choice, the Russian athletes do not, judging by that German documentary. Systematic doping is something which would create a small bit of sympathy within me for the individuals who are faced with an ultimatum to dope or make way for a replacement who will dope. Fagan had no such issues.

tang1

Chivito550 wrote: »

You were trying to make out that Fagan was a charitable do-gooder, while Gatlin was a shameful monster part of a corporate machine. Not comparing like with like. Easy to give away prize money when it is such a small amount.

Never once said he was a charitable do gooder, just stated a fact he gives prize money back. Gatlin is a shameful monster in my opinion, it is an opinion site at the end of the day, and thats my opinion on him.

Chivito550

tang1 wrote: »

Never once said he was a charitable do gooder, just stated a fact he gives prize money back. Gatlin is a shameful monster in my opinion, it is an opinion site at the end of the day, and thats my opinion on him.

You are being inconsistent and hypocritical in your stance against dopers. By all means have a bad opinion of Gatlin (I do), but you need to show consistency to all drug cheats IMO. Picking and choosing which drug cheats to accept back is complete hypocrisy.

tang1

tang1 wrote: »

But hes still playing by the rules set out, not trying to defend the man at all, i said he should have been banned for life, fullstop, end of. But until the rules change, the likes of Gatlin, Bezebah and Fagan will continue to return after there bans and compete.

From one of my earlier posts, i said he should have gotten a life ban, no questions so where am i being hypocritical?

Chivito550

tang1 wrote: »

From one of my earlier posts, i said he should have gotten a life ban, no questions so where am i being hypocritical?

By making the comparison with Gatlin. It wasn't necessary.