what to do about angry dogs next door?

hagoonabear

Hi guys , since the weather is getting better my neighbours have been leaving their four terriers outside now I like pets I do , but these guys absolutely hate everyone, really aggressive dogs , whenever I walk outside to my back they are going mad trying get through the fence to get to me , I have tried talking to the neighbours about them they said not there problem , there dogs it what they do but I cant even go outside with my daughter they are going mad barking I'm afraid it will turn her off dogs as they go crazy any advice, a friend said to get her dog and leave it outside in back to frighten them or to show dominance or something but I don't know .

borderlinemeath

No dog is going to show "dominance" to these dogs. Not in your garden, or their garden or anywhere, because it doesn't exist. What's the dog going to do? Strut around your garden, maybe cock his leg against the fence? It's not as if his presence is going to make them less territorial. I'm afraid that all a dog in your garden will do is antagonise them even further. Dogs are territorial and in their minds they're protecting their territory. Sometimes it's not so bad with one dog but with 4 they're probably revving each other up and becoming more frenzied.

If it were me I would go completely opposite and throw a few treats over the fence. If they begin to associate you with something positive like getting treats, they may start to react differently and realise you're not a threat to them. I would bear in mind that this might annoy your neighbour though, some people don't like other people feeding their dogs, but if they act as if they don't give a hoot if they're getting worked up in the garden then I doubt they'd care if they got a few extra treats.

tk123

OP do you stay outside when they bark or go in? My dog will bark at any strangers near our back garden but once he get's used to the scent he stops. I don't leave him out barking annoying people btw but at the same time I don't discourage him from protecting the house. My neighbours sheds were being broken into a few months ago their own dog and my guy barked the place down - I took him in though oops!

Pumpkinseeds

My parents were having a similar problem last year with a new neighbours dogs. Every single time my parents went out to their garden the dogs were going insane and barking for ages. It was particularly bad when the woman went out all day most days and left them in the garden. My parents just started talking to the dogs while they were out there, getting them used to their voices and it's a lot better. Tbh, I don't know how they didn't throttle the owner, there were so many times that I left early because I just couldn't cope any longer with yappy little dogs barking almost constantly.

hagoonabear

thanks think I'm gonna try be nice and give a few treats when they see me just to see if it works for now

Roquentin

get a staffy and unleash him

deadwood85

My terriers bark at my neighbour when she is out the back,when they can't see her when she pops her head up or talks to them they stop,,few treats aswell won't hurt,only throw the treats when they stop barking.

Or they will bark for treats.

hagoonabear

deadwood85 wrote:

My terriers bark at my neighbour when she is out the back,when they can't see her when she pops her head up or talks to them they stop,,few treats aswell won't hurt,only throw the treats when they stop barking.

deadwood85 wrote:

Or they will bark for treats.

thanks deadwood85, might just start going out even twice a day so they will get use to me. pity as when I see them being taken for a walk they seem nice.

hagoonabear

Roquentin wrote:

get a staffy and unleash him

once again your advice is just wow

Roquentin

hagoonabear wrote: »

once again your advice is just wow

the terriers wont know whats hit them once you unleash the staffy.

staffys are actually are (despite the bad press) very nice dogs. very loyal and playful. But like any dog, territorial with the added incentive that they pack pound for pound one of the strongest bites in the canine world.

DBB

Roquentin,
Do not post in this thread again.
Thanks,
DBB

Rubberchikken

a few treats can work wonders. will take a bit of time but you could retrain them by seeing if they'll stop barking when you come outside and then reward.
i feel sorry for the dogs, seems to me they have crap owners. dogs who are exercised and trained don't behave like this and good owners would be aware and respectful of others.

Oscar15

Roquentin - not all staffies are territorial. Mine wasn't. You are doing the breed a great disservice by posting things like 'unleash the staffy' as if they are all aggressive dogs. And what does it matter if they have strong jaws? My staffy was the most gentle, loving dog you could hope to meet - and he was very typical of his breed.

It is about the way they are reared, as with all dogs, and people making uninformed comments like yours adds to the myths and bad press around a fabulous breed.

DerTierarzt

Oscar15 wrote: »

Roquentin - not all staffies are territorial. Mine wasn't. You are doing the breed a great disservice by posting things like 'unleash the staffy' as if they are all aggressive dogs. And what does it matter if they have strong jaws? My staffy was the most gentle, loving dog you could hope to meet - and he was very typical of his breed.

It is about the way they are reared, as with all dogs, and people making uninformed comments like yours adds to the myths and bad press around a fabulous breed.

Going to play devil's advocate here, while it is abhorrent to suggest to resolve a problem by introducing canine aggression, it is actually well documented that Staffordshire Bull Terriers are involved in more dog attacks.

Please find here a scientific article on same, and here a media report that my be more engaging to a layperson.

Less scientific is an article that purports a tenous link between the personality of the owner (agressive) and the ensuing personality of the dog (canine aggressive).

Just to clarify in case there's any doubt, staffies are underrepresented when it comes to human bites, but overrepresented when it comes to dog-on-dog bites.

muddypaws

DerTierarzt wrote: »

Going to play devil's advocate here, while it is abhorrent to suggest to resolve a problem by introducing canine aggression, it is actually well documented that Staffordshire Bull Terriers are involved in more dog attacks.

Please find here a scientific article on same, and here a media report that my be more engaging to a layperson.

Less scientific is an article that purports a tenous link between the personality of the owner (agressive) and the ensuing personality of the dog (canine aggressive).

Just to clarify in case there's any doubt, staffies are underrepresented when it comes to human bites, but overrepresented when it comes to dog-on-dog bites.

Neither of those articles say it is Staffies that are responsible, they state bull breeds, including Staffies.

The problem with issues like this is that the general public is notoriously bad at identifying breeds properly. They will call a Staffy a Pit Bull, they may also identify a labrador cross a Pit Bull. The same as any medium to large sized fluffy dog with upright ears and a curly tail is a husky, no matter if it is actually an akita, a malamute, or indeed a husky. So statistics are skewed because the reporting is inaccurate.

Oscar15

As I said in my previous post it is about the way they are reared.

Unfortunately a lot of people are attracted to staffies because they think they are 'tough', and when these people find they have in fact got a four stone lapdog they either abandon them or treat them very badly in an attempt to get them to behave aggressively.

DerTierarzt

muddypaws wrote: »

Neither of those articles say it is Staffies that are responsible, they state bull breeds, including Staffies.

The problem with issues like this is that the general public is notoriously bad at identifying breeds properly. They will call a Staffy a Pit Bull, they may also identify a labrador cross a Pit Bull. The same as any medium to large sized fluffy dog with upright ears and a curly tail is a husky, no matter if it is actually an akita, a malamute, or indeed a husky. So statistics are skewed because the reporting is inaccurate.

• Just out of interest, did you read either of the articles or just the abstracts?
• And if so, in what way are you unhappy specifically with the statistics?

muddypaws

DerTierarzt wrote: »

• Just out of interest, did you read either of the articles or just the abstracts?
• And if so, in what way are you unhappy specifically with the statistics?

Just the abstract, and the Daily Torygraph article.

I've already explained why I'm unhappy with the statistics, did you read my reply?

DerTierarzt

Oscar15 wrote: »

As I said in my previous post it is about the way they are reared.

Unfortunately a lot of people are attracted to staffies because they think they are 'tough', and when these people find they have in fact got a four stone lapdog they either abandon them or treat them very badly in an attempt to get them to behave aggressively.

The second article supports this viewpoint, but is less scientific.

DerTierarzt

muddypaws wrote: »

Just the abstract, and the Daily Torygraph article.

I've already explained why I'm unhappy with the statistics, did you read my reply?

Torygraph, that's a good one, must remember it!

Having analysed the paper in full, the statistics support bull terriers including Staffordshires as being over-represented in dog-on-dog aggression. The most pertinent supporting statistic would be that bull breeds constitute roughly 5.9% of the UK dog population, but accounted for 45.7% of the aggressors in the study (completed over nearly 3 years looking at 100 victims - guide dogs).

Obviously as per the second article and the sentiment expressed by the poster above, there could indeed be a link between the owner's behaviour and that of bull terriers including Staffordshires.

The character of such owners could also be extricated from the fact that Staffordshire Bull Terriers are over-represented in animal rescue charities (possibly due to being unwanted).

shaymus27

Do not get a dog to overpower the other dogs.

This is a wrong reason to get a dog which is a huge commitment, not a solution to a problem.

If treats don't work,

ONLY IF IT IS SAFE TO DO THIS; you might get owners to introduce dogs individually without other dogs present to you (and without other dogs being aware of what's going on so they don't get frenzied). Owner and you would have to be knowledgeable about how to do this, so it may not be possible. It requires owner being very aware of his dog's behaviour - when it is getting tense, when it is going to snap at you. If you could pet the dog in this safe way it might stop them barking at you later. DO NOT DO THIS IF ANY DOUBTS ABOUT YOUR SAFETY OR OWNER'S ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND THEIR DOGS AND DO THIS SAFELY.

muddypaws

DerTierarzt wrote: »

Torygraph, that's a good one, must remember it!

Having analysed the paper in full, the statistics support bull terriers including Staffordshires as being over-represented in dog-on-dog aggression. The most pertinent supporting statistic would be that bull breeds constitute roughly 5.9% of the UK dog population, but accounted for 45.7% of the aggressors in the study (completed over nearly 3 years looking at 100 victims - guide dogs).

Obviously as per the second article and the sentiment expressed by the poster above, there could indeed be a link between the owner's behaviour and that of bull terriers including Staffordshires.

The character of such owners could also be extricated from the fact that Staffordshire Bull Terriers are over-represented in animal rescue charities (possibly due to being unwanted).

You stated Staffordshire Bull Terriers, the article states bull breeds including Staffies.

Also, you still don't seem to be understanding my point. The statistics are based on information given by people, I don't have the time, or the inclination now to go and find the articles or the test that has been done so many times on so many websites, that show how people mis-identify dog breeds more often than they identify them correctly. So someone may well present at an A&E department stating they have been bitten by a Staffordshire Bull Terrier, but there is no proof that it was indeed that breed that bit them. Without proof of breed, the statistics are useless.

DerTierarzt

muddypaws wrote: »

You stated Staffordshire Bull Terriers, the article states bull breeds including Staffies.

I said including Staffordshires.

Also, you still don't seem to be understanding my point. The statistics are based on information given by people, I don't have the time, or the inclination now to go and find the articles or the test that has been done so many times on so many websites, that show how people mis-identify dog breeds more often than they identify them correctly.

I think it's important to base any discussion upon evidence, it lends more credence to a viewpoint. Unfortunately there will always be limitations and improvements that could be made to any study, but the relevant statistics are dramatically in favour of the notion that Staffies are over-represented in dog-on-dog aggression.

So someone may well present at an A&E department stating they have been bitten by a Staffordshire Bull Terrier, but there is no proof that it was indeed that breed that bit them. Without proof of breed, the statistics are useless.

As stated before, this is playing devil's advocate to the populist notion that Staffordshire Bull Terrier's are over-represented for canine, not human, bites.

shaymus27

I don't want to upset any staffie lovers but as far as I am aware, they are on Ireland's restricted breed list. I haven't checked before writing this and am going from memory.

If they are, which I suspect, then there is a reason for that. It didn't happen because those who were consulted when composing this list just somehow completely misunderstands the breed.

The impression I have of bull breeds in general concurs with DerT's point that they seem like a nice breed for the owners but I wouldn't trust them with other dogs.

I do know people who have had staffies and I found them to be gentle, lively, intelligent and friendly. I still wouldn't trust them with dogs and I presume this might be why they are on the restricted breed list - people can get hurt in the melee of a dog fight and if they are inclined to get in to dog fights then that might be why they are on the list.

Unfortunately some hard chaws want to own them and they give the breed a bad name by their own look and if they encourage the dog to be aggressive while putting more stuff around their dog's neck than Mr.T does around his neck.

sillysmiles

Regarding the stats, isn't it possible that that bull breeds are over represented because they are so strong that they are likely to be more damaging, therefore you are not counting frequency but severity.

My dog got attacked by a very large rottie on Sunday. Was I meant to report this to someone to assist in the collation of statistic?!

andreac

shaymus27 wrote: »

I don't want to upset any staffie lovers but as far as I am aware, they are on Ireland's restricted breed list. I haven't checked before writing this and am going from memory.

If they are, which I suspect, then there is a reason for that. It didn't happen because those who were consulted when composing this list just somehow completely misunderstands the breed.

The impression I have of bull breeds in general concurs with DerT's point that they seem like a nice breed for the owners but I wouldn't trust them with other dogs.

I do know people who have had staffies and I found them to be gentle, lively, intelligent and friendly. I still wouldn't trust them with dogs and I presume this might be why they are on the restricted breed list - people can get hurt in the melee of a dog fight and if they are inclined to get in to dog fights then that might be why they are on the list.

Unfortunately some hard chaws want to own them and they give the breed a bad name by their own look and if they encourage the dog to be aggressive while putting more stuff around their dog's neck than Mr.T does around his neck.

You should do a little research into the restricted breeds list to be honest. Its not there because of what you think.

https://www.facebook.com/unmuzzleireland?fref=ts

DerTierarzt

sillysmiles wrote: »

Regarding the stats, isn't it possible that that bull breeds are over represented because they are so strong that they are likely to be more damaging, therefore you are not counting frequency but severity.

With regards to this particular study, veterinary attention was only required in 41% of attacks reported, so both the frequency and severity (as you put it), are factored in.

My dog got attacked by a very large rottie on Sunday. Was I meant to report this to someone to assist in the collation of statistic?!

No, this was a study done in the UK in 2010 on a guide dog population of 100 or so over 3 years.

shaymus27

sillysmiles wrote: »

Regarding the stats, isn't it possible that that bull breeds are over represented because they are so strong that they are likely to be more damaging, therefore you are not counting frequency but severity.

My dog got attacked by a very large rottie on Sunday. Was I meant to report this to someone to assist in the collation of statistic?!

Rotties are on the restricted breed list.

They should be on a lead and muzzled in all public places at all times.

You should report this to the police and local authority dog control unit if the rottie was off lead and unmuzzled.

Look up restricted breeds on line and this should confirm what I wrote.

borderlinemeath

DerTierarzt wrote: »

With regards to this particular study, veterinary attention was only required in 41% of attacks reported, so both the frequency and severity (as you put it), are factored in.



No, this was a study done in the UK in 2010 on a guide dog population of 100 or so over 3 years.

I'm sorry and this sounds bad, but how the feck are people who have guide dogs meant to identify staffies from any other breed when people with adequate vision have difficulty??

DerTierarzt

shaymus27 wrote: »

I don't want to upset any staffie lovers but as far as I am aware, they are on Ireland's restricted breed list.

They are, see S.I. No. 442/1998 Control of Dogs Regulation:

(j) Staffordshire Bull Terrier

sillysmiles

I know they are on the restricted breed list. But I choose to deal with the situation in a different way. Thank you though.

muddypaws

DerTierarzt wrote: »

I said including Staffordshires.

No you didn't

DerTierarzt wrote: »

Going to play devil's advocate here, while it is abhorrent to suggest to resolve a problem by introducing canine aggression, it is actually well documented that Staffordshire Bull Terriers are involved in more dog attacks.

shaymus27 wrote: »

I don't want to upset any staffie lovers but as far as I am aware, they are on Ireland's restricted breed list. I haven't checked before writing this and am going from memory.

If they are, which I suspect, then there is a reason for that. It didn't happen because those who were consulted when composing this list just somehow completely misunderstands the breed.

Unfortunately, as surprising as it is, the drawing up of the RB list wasn't done with any scientific rationale or understanding of dogs. Chihuahuas were going to be included because the name made it sound as though they were dangerous.

Why are some mastiffs on it, and others aren't? Why are German Shepherds on it, but Belgian Shepherds aren't? Why are Rhodesian Ridgebacks on it, but ..... you get the point.

muddypaws

borderlinemeath wrote: »

I'm sorry and this sounds bad, but how the feck are people who have guide dogs meant to identify staffies from any other breed when people with adequate vision have difficulty??

One of the best posts ever on Boards.ie

DerTierarzt

borderlinemeath wrote: »

I'm sorry and this sounds bad, but how the feck are people who have guide dogs meant to identify staffies from any other breed when people with adequate vision have difficulty??

Brilliant!

As I'm sure people on here may volunteer to do same, there is a lot of work to be done before they actually enter service as a working dog! Regardless, a valid point, 61% of the studies were encountered when in harness (and presumed working) and this may have altered the dynamic with regards to normal canine-canine communication.

DerTierarzt

muddypaws wrote: »

Chihuahuas were going to be included because the name made it sound as though they were dangerous.

Really interesting, do you happen to have a source for this?

DerTierarzt

muddypaws wrote: »

No you didn't

See below and earlier:

DerTierarzt wrote: »

Having analysed the paper in full, the statistics support bull terriers including Staffordshires as being over-represented in dog-on-dog aggression. The most pertinent supporting statistic would be that bull breeds constitute roughly 5.9% of the UK dog population, but accounted for 45.7% of the aggressors in the study (completed over nearly 3 years looking at 100 victims - guide dogs).

muddypaws

DerTierarzt wrote: »

See below and earlier:

This has taken the thread completely off topic, so I'm going to stop posting on it now. I replied to your first comment, where you definitely did not say 'including'

shaymus27

andreac wrote: »

You should do a little research into the restricted breeds list to be honest. Its not there because of what you think.


I do my research but not from facebook;

I tried to post list which includes staffies with info. about what legal route you can take which is probably not what OP really wants by copying and pasting from the correct site but it came up that I couldn't as I am a new user.

Look up the dept of environment site about dog control for info on restricted breeds - a Government site, not facebook.

tk123

shaymus27 wrote: »

andreac wrote: »

You should do a little research into the restricted breeds list to be honest. Its not there because of what you think.


I do my research but not from facebook;

I tried to post list which includes staffies with info. about what legal route you can take which is probably not what OP really wants by copying and pasting from the correct site but it came up that I couldn't as I am a new user.

Look up the dept of environment site about dog control for info on restricted breeds - a Government site, not facebook.

The dogs the OP posted about are terriers not RB dogs?!

OP I'd love to hear how you got on?

andreac

shaymus27 wrote: »

andreac wrote: »

You should do a little research into the restricted breeds list to be honest. Its not there because of what you think.


I do my research but not from facebook;

I tried to post list which includes staffies with info. about what legal route you can take which is probably not what OP really wants by copying and pasting from the correct site but it came up that I couldn't as I am a new user.

Look up the dept of environment site about dog control for info on restricted breeds - a Government site, not facebook.

Trust me. I know all about the restricted breeds list. I own 3 Rotties. The point I was trying to make us to do a little research on how the list was drawn up in the first place.

DerTierarzt

andreac wrote: »

The point I was trying to make us to do a little research on how the list was drawn up in the first place.

Do you happen to have any scientific articles or papers that would support your viewpoint please or is this purely a subjective assessment of the situation as it stands?

DerTierarzt

hagoonabear wrote: »

Hi guys , since the weather is getting better my neighbours have been leaving their four terriers outside now I like pets I do , but these guys absolutely hate everyone, really aggressive dogs , whenever I walk outside to my back they are going mad trying get through the fence to get to me , I have tried talking to the neighbours about them they said not there problem , there dogs it what they do but I cant even go outside with my daughter they are going mad barking I'm afraid it will turn her off dogs as they go crazy any advice, a friend said to get her dog and leave it outside in back to frighten them or to show dominance or something but I don't know .

Please find the link here, but if you want to follow the letter of the law you must next contact your local authority to request a prescribed form for excessive barking, with this you are informing your neighbour in writing.

DerTierarzt

borderlinemeath wrote: »

If it were me I would go completely opposite and throw a few treats over the fence.

This is a form of positive reinforcement, and may in fact worsen the undesired behaviour.

borderlinemeath

DerTierarzt wrote: »

This is a form of positive reinforcement, and may in fact worsen the undesired behaviour.

The OP is not in control of the dogs, the best she can do in the situation is counter conditioning by trying to avert their aggression away from the fence.

shaymus27

tk123 wrote: »

The dogs the OP posted about are terriers not RB dogs?!

OP I'd love to hear how you got on?

No need to be confused, to clarify;

My point about the restricted breeds list was in reply to a poster who suggested staffies weren't on the list. I see from further posts the poster meant the reasons why staffies got on the list, rather than that staffies weren't on the list. The poster might have made this a little clearer in their original post but I get what they mean now after their subsequent post.

I tried to include what the Govt website - environment website said exactly about what the OP could do via the legal route - I think it mentions district court and you complain via the environment/local authority way - I think DerT mentions this in a post.

Hence I tried to paste the environment website, the control of dogs act with restricted breed list AND THE SECTION ABOUT EXCESSIVE DOG NOISE TO HELP THE OP.

It would have been clearer if I had been allowed post these but can't as I am new or so it came up.

I was trying to do two things in the one post - reply to one poster while showing the OP what it says about the legal route. I think my first post would be a better way as long as it is safely done, not the legal route.

OP, One other point that just came to mind about the barking; it may be that one dog sets the others off so if you could make friends with that dog it might help - see my first post about the need to do that safely.

Perhaps no more stuff about staffies or other people's posts and more attempts to help OP.

DerTierarzt

borderlinemeath wrote: »

The OP is not in control of the dogs, the best she can do in the situation is counter conditioning by trying to avert their aggression away from the fence.

Absolutely, but any reward given to the dogs in this instance when barking constitutes positive reinforcement.

borderlinemeath

DerTierarzt wrote: »

Absolutely, but any reward given to the dogs in this instance when barking constitutes positive reinforcement.

Semantics pure and simple. I'd be hard pressed to see any other solution to the OPs predicament given that the neighbour is unwilling to listen.

You seem to be very good on correcting other posters on where they seem to be going wrong, but how about you give the OP some advice on what to do?:rolleyes:

DerTierarzt

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Semantics pure and simple.

Rewarding the offending dogs for the undesired behaviour could worsen it, that's all.

You seem to be very good on correcting other posters on where they seem to be going wrong, but how about you give the OP some advice on what to do?:rolleyes:

Apart from flagging potentially worsening the situation, and this below from within the past hour?

DerTierarzt wrote: »

Please find the link here, but if you want to follow the letter of the law you must next contact your local authority to request a prescribed form for excessive barking, with this you are informing your neighbour in writing.

borderlinemeath

DerTierarzt wrote: »

Rewarding the offending dogs for the undesired behaviour could worsen it, that's all.



Apart from flagging potentially worsening the situation, and this below from within the past hour?

There is no need to bolden your post, I can read it perfectly well without it. However, it did take you 11 completely off topic posts - 10 before Muddypaws actually pointed out that it was completely off topic before you posted legislation, not advice as such, but legislation, a confirmation of the law.

The OP has approached the neighbour in this instance, and while it didn't offer a solution, it's always worth exploring every avenue before taking the legal route, as she stated when she meets the dogs out walking, they appear nice. Most people do not want to get into legal wranglings with their next door neighbour and particularly straight from the off. While clarity in the legal option is helpful, in a neighbourly context it's usually going to start a war

Tell me DerTierarzt, do you have any pets? While it seems you are very knowlegeable on veterinary matters and legal boundaries concerning domestic pets, your advice comes across as very "clinical" if you don't mind me saying so. Pretty much every poster on this forum has pets, and while keeping in mind that anecdotal evidence is purely that, most posters will advise on what has worked for them in the past with their own pets, and are coming from a knowledge base that has included lifelong experience with their pets, and some are also involved in breeding, showing, behaviour, training etc. All your posts quote law or studies, and no mention of your own experiences, so it comes across as quite clinical, even lecturing other posters. I'm only saying this as I feel I may have been a bit hasty with my last post, but your posting style is slightly argumentative, and dare I say it, disparaging?

DerTierarzt

borderlinemeath wrote: »

it's always worth exploring every avenue before taking the legal route

Couldn't agree more, just one of which is addressing it in by way of legislation as for nuisance by a barking dog.

borderlinemeath

DerTierarzt wrote: »

Couldn't agree more, just one of which is addressing it in by way of legislation as for nuisance by a barking dog.

So if you "couldn't agree more" that every avenue should be explored prior to going legal why didn't you offer advice only direct to legislation . You have an answer for everything else?

Except if you had any pets of course.