X5 with 5 Seats but doe and taxed commercial?

sc86

looking through donedeal and notice alot of x5 passengers taxed and doe as commercials?

heard of this with landcruisers and pajeros
is this legal?

sc86

bump

Gumbo

sc86 wrote: »

looking through donedeal and notice alot of x5 passengers taxed and doe as commercials?

heard of this with landcruisers and pajeros
is this legal?

Yes legal. It's classes as a crew cab.
Can be done on various 4x4 vehicles.

Just be careful,when it comes to insurance as you technically need a reason for it, have to be carrying employees only and I wouldn't want to be in an accident on a private trip with the child on board with care can insurance. Not worth the risk IMHO.

Spook_ie

I thought that crew cabs had to have a minimum load area/length? Did they change it recently?

Crew Cabs

Normal goods or commercial vehicles can only have two/three seats (unless the vehicle is in category N) in the front of the vehicle and the rest of the vehicle is for goods carriage only. There is one exception to this rule and this is when the vehicle is used as a Crew Cab.

A crew cab is a vehicle that comprises a cab, with seating for a driver and a minimum of 3 and a maximum of 6 other persons, and has a cargo area to the rear of the cab that is designed, constructed or adapted exclusively for the carriage of goods and which is completely and permanently separated from the cab by a fixed rigid partition. The goods carrying area must be greater than the seating area.

The carriage of passengers is permitted in a crew cab provided they are employed by the registered owner of the vehicle, the carriage takes place during the course of their employment (only during the time they are paid, not going to or coming from work unless it forms part of the paid working day) and the vehicle is ordinarily used for the conveyance of goods and employees in the course of trade or business.

Applicants should be aware that if the crew cab is used in any situation other than the above then the higher rate of tax is payable (private). If an applicant wishes to convert the body type on a van from 'van to 'crew cab' he/she should contact the Revenue Commissioners as additional VRT may be payable in this case.

The requirements for taxation of a crew cab at the goods rate are similar to those required for the taxation of normal goods vehicle except for the following:

If a vehicle has been converted to a crew cab it will need to be certified by an SQI ( Suitably Qualifies Individual) if the applicant intends on taxing the vehicle at the goods rate.
Applicants are required to complete a “Crew Cab Declaration Form” on the first taxing of the vehicle or on the renewal of taxation following a change in ownership.

Gumbo

Spook_ie wrote: »

I thought that crew cabs had to have a minimum load area/length? Did they change it recently?

They can meet the EU regulations on crew cab technical data. Same as Merc ML jeeps and the like.

colm_mcm

Goods carrying area bigger than the seating area?

166man

That's an interesting point about the insurance kceire, doubt too many are aware of it...

Eric Cartman

166man wrote: »

That's an interesting point about the insurance kceire, doubt too many are aware of it...

my commercial crewcab insurance covers me for SD&P , most policies do. Once you tell them it has 5 seats then everything should be above board.

Gumbo

Eric Cartman wrote: »

my commercial crewcab insurance covers me for SD&P , most policies do. Once you tell them it has 5 seats then everything should be above board.

But what about the declaration that you will only carry employees?
Genuine question as its the reason i didnt cre cab my current ML 270.

Mycroft H

kceire wrote: »

But what about the declaration that you will only carry employees?
Genuine question as its the reason i didnt cre cab my current ML 270.

What declaration? The tax one? What does that have to do anything with insurance?

Gumbo

Mycroft H wrote: »

What declaration? The tax one? What does that have to do anything with insurance?

Because i was told by my insurance provider that i would have to swap my private policy to a commercial policy and i thought that the legal side of a crew cab only covered employees in the car.

The carriage of passengers is permitted in a crew cab provided they are employed by the registered owner of the vehicle, the carriage takes place during the course of their employment (only during the time they are paid, not going to or coming from work unless it forms part of the paid working day) and the vehicle is ordinarily used for the conveyance of goods and employees in the course of trade or business.

Applicants should be aware that if the crew cab is used in any situation other than the above then the higher rate of tax is payable (private). If an applicant wishes to convert the body type on a van from 'van to 'crew cab' he/she should contact the Revenue Commissioners as additional VRT may be payable in this case.

Cheensbo

kceire wrote: »

Because i was told by my insurance provider that i would have to swap my private policy to a commercial policy and i thought that the legal side of a crew cab only covered employees in the car.

You have to commercially insure a commercially taxed vehicle (used to be able to privately insure them, but noone seems to offer it anymore)

Commercial insurance - crewcab or not, carries SD&P cover. If it didn't, the vast majority of commercial vehicles on the road would be uninsured for much of their time on the road. The insurance companies are actually conveying sense here as opposed to the Department of transport.

The text you've linked is in relation to taxation, not insurance.

Eric Cartman

kceire wrote: »

Because i was told by my insurance provider that i would have to swap my private policy to a commercial policy and i thought that the legal side of a crew cab only covered employees in the car.

Thats a tax office form that gets put away and never seen again. Like tint laws or exhaust volume laws , its a stick the gardai have to beat you with if your a mouthy scummer at the side of the road and they want to do you for anything they can get , but if your a reasonable person and keep the 2-3 discs in the window up to date youll never hear anything about it ever again.

Worst penalty for that decleration is paying back tax at the private rate for all the time youve owned the car, so if your paying that now anyway its worth the gamble.

Gumbo

Thanks guys.
Who are you guys insured with?

My current insurer wont insure a commercial vehicle (RSA through Cornmarket.)

Cheensbo

kceire wrote: »

Thanks guys.
Who are you guys insured with?

My current insurer wont insure a commercial vehicle (RSA through Cornmarket.)

I'm with Axa.

Why won't they insure you on a commercial?

Gumbo

Cheensbo wrote: »

I'm with Axa.

Why won't they insure you on a commercial?

Dont know, they say they dont do commercials at all. Maybe its a Broker thing rather than an RSA thing.

sc86

the thread was nothing got to do with insurance
i have trade policy so makes no diff
so i can legally doe a 5 seater x5 yes?

Gumbo

sc86 wrote: »

the thread was nothing got to do with insurance
i have trade policy so makes no diff
so i can legally doe a 5 seater x5 yes?

You havent been around to deal with the thread, it has evolved, so deal with it

Yes you can legally convert an X5 (5 seater) to a crew cab.

mossy50

try INSURE MY VAN .IE

Gumbo

mossy50 wrote: »

try INSURE MY VAN .IE

Thanks for that.
Was into them first thing and they can insure it commercially with the S&D add on for €515 with Aviva.

So now have to weight up the private versus commercial costs.

Conversion to crew cab - €750
Insurance - €515
Tax €333

Private :
Insurance €500
Tax €1345

So basically after one year I will be in profit

traco

kceire wrote: »

Thanks for that.
Was into them first thing and they can insure it commercially with the S&D add on for €515 with Aviva.

So now have to weight up the private versus commercial costs.

Conversion to crew cab - €750
Insurance - €515
Tax €333

Private :
Insurance €500
Tax €1345

So basically after one year I will be in profit

Don't foget the annual DOE test fee of €111.00

What does the Conversion involve? I've a 2007 ML and sick of the road tax also so maybe this is teh way forward?

Gumbo

traco wrote: »

Don't foget the annual DOE test fee of €111.00

What does the Conversion involve? I've a 2007 ML and sick of the road tax also so maybe this is teh way forward?

not too bad as the annual NCT is €55.

Basically an Engineer measures up the critical dimensions and signs a report stating that they meet the EU Regulations for a Crew Cab. The report has to be from an honours Level Qualified Engineer.

You send this report and your VLC to Shannon, and they change the class of it, then you tax it.

drunkmonkey

If they dealers converts the x5 before you buy it, can you then claim back the vat as well? 23% off sticker would be sweet.

R.O.R

Do the X5 and ML definitely meet the criteria?

http://www.nsai.ie/NSAI/files/76/76b90d32-3676-4db3-a362-66db69bc423b.pdf

Rear door aperture must be at least 800mm in height, and area of aperture must be at least 12,800 cm2.

It's usually the aperture measurements that fail the N1 classification. Other criteria is that cargo area has to be 30% of the wheelbase.

Think there's been an update since those as well, as there's definitely something to do with the Load Area to Seating Area ratio - hence the 4 Seat Kuga model.

Bpmull

kceire wrote: »

not too bad as the annual NCT is €55.

Basically an Engineer measures up the critical dimensions and signs a report stating that they meet the EU Regulations for a Crew Cab. The report has to be from an honours Level Qualified Engineer.

You send this report and your VLC to Shannon, and they change the class of it, then you tax it.

Out of curiosity is it any engineer that has a level 8 honours degree ie civil, chemical, electrical or does it have to be a mechanical engineer or one of them specific car related courses.

mossy50

R.O.R wrote: »

Do the X5 and ML definitely meet the criteria?

http://www.nsai.ie/NSAI/files/76/76b90d32-3676-4db3-a362-66db69bc423b.pdf

Rear door aperture must be at least 800mm in height, and area of aperture must be at least 12,800 cm2.

It's usually the aperture measurements that fail the N1 classification. Other criteria is that cargo area has to be 30% of the wheelbase.

Think there's been an update since those as well, as there's definitely something to do with the Load Area to Seating Area ratio - hence the 4 Seat Kuga model.

land rover disco does

Gumbo

R.O.R wrote: »

Do the X5 and ML definitely meet the criteria?

http://www.nsai.ie/NSAI/files/76/76b90d32-3676-4db3-a362-66db69bc423b.pdf

Rear door aperture must be at least 800mm in height, and area of aperture must be at least 12,800 cm2.

It's usually the aperture measurements that fail the N1 classification. Other criteria is that cargo area has to be 30% of the wheelbase.

Think there's been an update since those as well, as there's definitely something to do with the Load Area to Seating Area ratio - hence the 4 Seat Kuga model.

Yes, a couple for sale at the moment and when I rang about getting it done, they said its ok. Once you have a 5 seater that is, the 7 seater requires the last row of seats to be removed and some work then. The 5 seater is a simple report.

Bpmull wrote: »

Out of curiosity is it any engineer that has a level 8 honours degree ie civil, chemical, electrical or does it have to be a mechanical engineer or one of them specific car related courses.

Im not sure, I assume its somebody with their name on headed paper with the relevant professional insurance. Im structural myself, but sure as hell cant put my name to the alteration of a vehicle.

gofaster_s13

R.O.R wrote: »

Do the X5 and ML definitely meet the criteria?

http://www.nsai.ie/NSAI/files/76/76b90d32-3676-4db3-a362-66db69bc423b.pdf

Rear door aperture must be at least 800mm in height, and area of aperture must be at least 12,800 cm2.

It's usually the aperture measurements that fail the N1 classification. Other criteria is that cargo area has to be 30% of the wheelbase.

Think there's been an update since those as well, as there's definitely something to do with the Load Area to Seating Area ratio - hence the 4 Seat Kuga model.

We are NSAI certified to sign off on M1-N1 conversions and most definitely the ML's and X5's do not qualify for 5 seat commercial conversion, they both fall way short of the 12,800 cm rear door aperture(to give an idea of the size required, the current new from the dealer N1 Discovery barely scrapes through the 12,800 door aperture requirement). Just because you get someone to sign off on the paperwork doesn't mean that its above board, similar to the 2.0L on the book scenario. If X5's etc qualified, BMW Ireland would be selling them as 5 seat commercials.

Gumbo

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

We are NSAI certified to sign off on M1-N1 conversions and most definitely the ML's and X5's do not qualify for 5 seat commercial conversion, they both fall way short of the 12,800 cm rear door aperture(to give an idea of the size required, the current new from the dealer N1 Discovery barely scrapes through the 12,800 door aperture requirement). Just because you get someone to sign off on the paperwork doesn't mean that its above board, similar to the 2.0L on the book scenario. If X5's etc qualified, BMW Ireland would be selling them as 5 seat commercials.

So are some companies scamming the system?

gofaster_s13

kceire wrote: »

So are some companies scamming the system?

Yes, basically.

We operate a CVRT test centre as well and we have seen everything from Suzuki Vitara's to Opel Astra estate's presented for CVRT test as 5 seat commercial vehicles which have been signed off by other person's.
NSAI and Revenue are chomping at the bit to get the go ahead to audit all submitted paperwork and are apparantly just waiting on clarification as to exactly how to proceed.

sc86

kceire wrote: »

Thanks for that.
Was into them first thing and they can insure it commercially with the S&D add on for €515 with Aviva.

So now have to weight up the private versus commercial costs.

Conversion to crew cab - €750
Insurance - €515
Tax €333

Private :
Insurance €500
Tax €1345

So basically after one year I will be in profit

whos doing the conversion for that price?
might get it done myself

gofaster_s13

sc86 wrote: »

whos doing the conversion for that price?
might get it done myself

€750 for measuring vehicle and filling out two forms is extortionate.

sc86

theres places charging 1400-1500e to do them

there is slight alterations needed inside aswell, nothing major

gofaster_s13

sc86 wrote: »

theres places charging 1400-1500e to do them

there is slight alterations needed inside aswell, nothing major

What sort of vehicle and what alterations are you being told are required ??

Eric Cartman

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

What sort of vehicle and what alterations are you being told are required ??

A lot of places claiming they need to put in dog guards and hooks for the rachet straps,

Is any of this necessary or ?

Also does the full size (not sport or evoque) range rover meet the requirements ?

Special Circumstances

Do the new Kugas need dog guards? The few I've seen don't seem to have them.

Surely this is all written down somewhere in plain english and not up to regional variation, personal interpretation and nod and a wink sign off. Oh wait...

gofaster_s13

Eric Cartman wrote: »

A lot of places claiming they need to put in dog guards and hooks for the rachet straps,

Is any of this necessary or ?

Also does the full size (not sport or evoque) range rover meet the requirements ?

Dog guards/partitions etc not required if the vehicle has lashing points in the floor of the load bed and the only jeep I've seen which doesnt have them fitted by the manufacturer at time of manufacture is the P38 Range Rover(which doesnt qualify anyway), so don't let any "converter" tell you that you need to fit anything.

The full size Range Rovers are an odd one, the unladen weight is too high to qualify but NSAI have said that if the owner presents a weight docket from an approved weighbridge which puts it under the threshold then they'll accept it.

gofaster_s13

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Do the new Kugas need dog guards? The few I've seen don't seem to have them.

Surely this is all written down somewhere in plain english and not up to regional variation, personal interpretation and nod and a wink sign off. Oh wait...

It is all written down in black and white with noo room for interpretation.

Nothing needs dog gaurds.

Gumbo

sc86 wrote: »

whos doing the conversion for that price?
might get it done myself

rang a crowd on Donedeal.
Didn't keep the number i'm afraid as I had decided not to go ahead, but now i'm in two minds.

mothoin

How difficult a process is it to convert a two seater commercial(landcruiser lwb) to a 5 seater?

Gumbo

mothoin wrote: »

How difficult a process is it to convert a two seater commercial(landcruiser lwb) to a 5 seater?

http://www.crewcabconversions.ie/

delly

I understood you had to be registered for vat in order to get commercial tax rates, simply driving a commercial didn't mean you got the commercial rate?

Gumbo

delly wrote: »

I understood you had to be registered for vat in order to get commercial tax rates, simply driving a commercial didn't mean you got the commercial rate?

Either that or have a genuine reason to tax it, ie a letter from your employer.

Either way, ive never been asked when doing my dads.

gofaster_s13

mothoin wrote: »

How difficult a process is it to convert a two seater commercial(landcruiser lwb) to a 5 seater?

Just put the rear seats and belts back in, no dog guard required, get the vehicle certified and then send the paperwork to Revenue in Rosslare for a VRT calculation, pay the outstanding VRT and then CVRT test it and tax it at the €333 rate.

Eric Cartman

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

Dog guards/partitions etc not required if the vehicle has lashing points in the floor of the load bed and the only jeep I've seen which doesnt have them fitted by the manufacturer at time of manufacture is the P38 Range Rover(which doesnt qualify anyway), so don't let any "converter" tell you that you need to fit anything.

The full size Range Rovers are an odd one, the unladen weight is too high to qualify but NSAI have said that if the owner presents a weight docket from an approved weighbridge which puts it under the threshold then they'll accept it.

Unladen weight too high ? Didnt think that could be an issue , whats the maximum

gofaster_s13

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Unladen weight too high ? Didnt think that could be an issue , whats the maximum

Theres no minimum, there's a formula that you use to ensure that you can carry more goods weight than passenger weight, its an issue with Range Rovers, Amazons and Patrols.

Eric Cartman

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

Theres no minimum, there's a formula that you use to ensure that you can carry more goods weight than passenger weight, its an issue with Range Rovers, Amazons and Patrols.

That makes sense , id imagine a lot of RR's showing up without spare tyres, jacks and the driver stepping out at the weighbridge to make it so.

ubs69

mothoin wrote: »

How difficult a process is it to convert a two seater commercial(landcruiser lwb) to a 5 seater?

You may have to do a test 48 mass. And dimensions test on the commercial first

drunkmonkey

Guys what's the situation if you convert something like an x5 to crew cab and then in 3 years time you decide you now need the extra 2 seats, can you just convert it back and start paying the ordinary road tax or would you be liable for any other taxes?

Gumbo

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Guys what's the situation if you convert something like an x5 to crew cab and then in 3 years time you decide you now need the extra 2 seats, can you just convert it back and start paying the ordinary road tax or would you be liable for any other taxes?

Yes. You can add seat 6 and seat 7 and convert back to private.

drunkmonkey

Good to know, probably want to change after 3 years anyway but might be handy when selling it on. If I could only convert my 530, I'm out of boot space it has to go.