Landlord has sold apartment

phantom_lord

Got a message yesterday that our current landlord has sold our apartment with no more details given; it was sight unseen so I'm guessing that it was a part of a group of BTL apartments.

I've been here nearly three years, just wondering how does this work, not finding much info online. Does that my lease has essentially terminated? Can I expect notice to leave or possible rent increases?

Thanks!

Baby01032012

phantom_lord wrote: »

Got a message yesterday that our current landlord has sold our apartment with no more details given; it was sight unseen so I'm guessing that it was a part of a group of BTL apartments.

I've been here nearly three years, just wondering how does this work, not finding much info online. Does that my lease has essentially terminated? Can I expect notice to leave or possible rent increases?

Thanks!

Are you in fixed term contract, if not you will have protection of part IV. So notice under that will apply which I can't link to right now.

Sounds like a mass sale. If it was a private individual there would have been viewings and if also buyer was using mortgage bank would have wanted vacant posession.

What information have you been given from landlord? Ask for more details. Maybe if block has been sold other tenants would have received same message or management agent would know.

Depends how much your rent is if it's market rate or below or when last increase was as to likelihood of an increase.

phantom_lord

No info from new landlord yet, it was just the current letting agent that let me know.

seamus

My understanding is that unless the original landlord issued notice to you to leave, then you are functionally unaffected by the sale until/unless you hear otherwise from the new landlord. Even then that landlord can only give you notice under the same terms as your previous landlord, i.e. as if they had been your landlord all along.

Chris_5339762

Make sure you get it, in writing, where your deposit ends up in all this.

the_syco

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Make sure you get it, in writing, where your deposit ends up in all this.

OP; who did you pay your deposit to? The landlord or the letting agent? If the latter, don't be fobbed off that you gotta ring the ex-landlord for it; get it off them.

phantom_lord

the_syco wrote: »

OP; who did you pay your deposit to? The landlord or the letting agent? If the latter, don't be fobbed off that you gotta ring the ex-landlord for it; get it off them.

Yep thanks, that had crossed my mind alright, must get that sorted.

runawaybishop

phantom_lord wrote: »

Got a message yesterday that our current landlord has sold our apartment with no more details given; it was sight unseen so I'm guessing that it was a part of a group of BTL apartments.

I've been here nearly three years, just wondering how does this work, not finding much info online. Does that my lease has essentially terminated? Can I expect notice to leave or possible rent increases?

Thanks!

You can stay another year, until your part 4 tenancy resets, after that they can issue you notice to leave.

Arbiter of Good Taste

Is your rent below market value? If so, I would expect a hike as soon as they legally can

phantom_lord

Apartment is being sold again. This time there's going to be viewings. What are my obligations here?

The agent what's me to cut a key for them; which I'm reluctant to do. So be it if the place needs to be viewed, but I don't want to risk it being viewed without my knowledge.

Thanks!

phantom_lord

Seemingly according to the this thread I don't have any real obligation towards the agent.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056577310

FishOnABike

Your landlord (or their agent) is still obliged to "allow the tenant of the dwelling to enjoy peaceful and exclusive occupation of the dwelling" They cannot simply enter your home without your consent.

There is a counter balancing obligation for you to "allow, at reasonable intervals, the landlord, or any person or persons acting on the landlord's behalf, access to the dwelling (on a date and time agreed in advance with the tenant) for the purposes of inspecting the dwelling".

Any inspections should only be with your agreement. This would usually refer to occasional inspections by your landlord or their agent to check the condition of the property, fixtures, fittings and contents. It would not include showing the property to prospective buyers.

Having said that selling the property within the next three months is one of the valid grounds for issuing notice of termination of the lease (unless you are on a fixed term lease). Making viewing too difficult for prospective buyers might convince the landlord a vacant sale is easier. A bit of give and take on both sides and a prospective investor might be persuaded of the advantage of having a good sitting tenant.

runawaybishop

phantom_lord wrote: »

Apartment is being sold again. This time there's going to be viewings. What are my obligations here?

The agent what's me to cut a key for them; which I'm reluctant to do. So be it if the place needs to be viewed, but I don't want to risk it being viewed without my knowledge.

Thanks!

Zero obligations, you are entitled to peaceful enjoyment of your home. You might consent to viewings on a date and time of your choosing while you are present. Its been known to negotiate lower rent to accommodate this.

Grandpa Hassan

runawaybishop wrote: »

Zero obligations, you are entitled to peaceful enjoyment of your home. You might consent to viewings on a date and time of your choosing while you are present. Its been known to negotiate lower rent to accommodate this.

Like another poster said, if the OP is too obstructive, the LL might decide it's not with their while to let them stay, and issue part IV termination on the ground of selling the house. So the OP needs to find a balance between being helpful and not being inconvenienced too badly

foggy_lad

phantom_lord wrote: »

Apartment is being sold again. This time there's going to be viewings. What are my obligations here?

The agent what's me to cut a key for them; which I'm reluctant to do. So be it if the place needs to be viewed, but I don't want to risk it being viewed without my knowledge.

Thanks!

Tell the agent to get a key from the landlord if they need one for emergencies and also tell them if they ever enter your home without your permission and your attendance you will make a complaint to the Gardai for trespass and the PRTB for illegally entering the property and also reporting them to the Property Services Regulatory Authority for their illegal behaviour.

The_Conductor

Point of note- investors have almost without exception exited the market. If/when the property is now sold- it is almost certain it will be sold to an owner occupier. OP- you need to factor this into your equation- you are entitled to notice as per the 2004 Act- however, sale of the property is one of the grounds for terminating the lease- and you'll have gone through this 2 times- plus the next purchaser is definite to want it as their own home- you are not going to get to stay in the property much longer- come what may.

I'd be looking for new accommodation asap.

runawaybishop

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Like another poster said, if the OP is too obstructive, the LL might decide it's not with their while to let them stay, and issue part IV termination on the ground of selling the house. So the OP needs to find a balance between being helpful and not being inconvenienced too badly

I find having strangers wandering about my home to be a serious inconvenience personally and the agents instruction to furnish them with a key so they can schedule viewings whenever they want to be very cheeky, apart from a violation of ops privacy. Balance is fairly well tipped already.

If the LL thinks that sort of behavior is acceptable then any tenant would be best suited finding new accommodation anyway.

The_Conductor

runawaybishop wrote: »

I find having strangers wandering about my home to be a serious inconvenience personally and the agents instruction to furnish them with a key so they can schedule viewings whenever they want to be very cheeky, apart from a violation of ops privacy. Balance is fairly well tipped already.

If the LL thinks that sort of behavior is acceptable then any tenant would be best suited finding new accommodation anyway.

Grand- in which case the owner gives the OP notice to get out as soon as the notice period is served. They're on borrowed time already in any case (given the new purchaser seems to have bought a bunch of the units, with the express intention of churning them at a profit).

The OP is on borrowed time- and its a when rather than an 'if' as to whether they are going to get served notice. If they facilitate viewings etc- the landlord will probably be happy to leave them in situ up to close of the sale- otherwise- its notice right here, right now.........

As to whether or not the rights of the tenancy are intact after the sale- that too, is up in the air (and indeed, is currently being tested). The sale of the property- it is argued, trumps the 2004 Act. For a potential purchaser though- the safer option is to demand vacant possession earlier rather than later (aka so there is no risk to a potential purchaser).

The OP- is going to get their notice to quit. Whether its in 1 week or 2 months time- depends on how they play their cards.

runawaybishop

The_Conductor wrote: »

Grand- in which case the owner gives the OP notice to get out as soon as the notice period is served. They're on borrowed time already in any case (given the new purchaser seems to have bought a bunch of the units, with the express intention of churning them at a profit).

The OP is on borrowed time- and its a when rather than an 'if' as to whether they are going to get served notice. If they facilitate viewings etc- the landlord will probably be happy to leave them in situ up to close of the sale- otherwise- its notice right here, right now.........

As to whether or not the rights of the tenancy are intact after the sale- that too, is up in the air (and indeed, is currently being tested). The sale of the property- it is argued, trumps the 2004 Act. For a potential purchaser though- the safer option is to demand vacant possession earlier rather than later (aka so there is no risk to a potential purchaser).

The OP- is going to get their notice to quit. Whether its in 1 week or 2 months time- depends on how they play their cards.

Notice term is the same either way, right? I am all for amicable solutions, the agents approach doesnt strike me as amicable.

the_syco

phantom_lord wrote: »

Yep thanks, that had crossed my mind alright, must get that sorted.

If the new agent said that they don't have your deposit, perhaps say that you'll move out early if you get said deposit?

phantom_lord

The_Conductor wrote: »

Point of note- investors have almost without exception exited the market. If/when the property is now sold- it is almost certain it will be sold to an owner occupier. OP- you need to factor this into your equation- you are entitled to notice as per the 2004 Act- however, sale of the property is one of the grounds for terminating the lease- and you'll have gone through this 2 times- plus the next purchaser is definite to want it as their own home- you are not going to get to stay in the property much longer- come what may.

I'd be looking for new accommodation asap.

They're looking to sell to investors now. Lease is up soon enough and I'd likely be moving in any case.


Agent seems quite insistent that I have to let him in at his request, under the guise of the landlord carrying out an inspection. I've no problem with a viewing by arrangement but I don't live in a showroom, I don't want anyone in my place without me.

phantom_lord

Is this something I could get advice from a solicitor on for a reasonable cost?

The_Conductor

You are under no obligation whatsoever to facilitate viewings of the property.
You are 100% definitely allowed be present, while the landlord inspects the property.
Any inspection of the property- has to be arranged in advance- at a time that you are happy with.

If the agent tries to tell you otherwise- they are wrong- plain and simple.

In a situation like this- you might organise a rent reduction- if you were willing to facilitate them- but you are under absolutely no obligation to facilitate them.

Personally- I'd be looking for a steep discount in the rent for the period- if you were to agreed to this- however, everything else being equal- I just wouldn't agree to it.

The_Conductor

phantom_lord wrote: »

Is this something I could get advice from a solicitor on for a reasonable cost?

Your rights are spelt out in the 2004 Residential Tenancies Act.

Link here

The agent is trying to brow beat you into agreeing to something that you have absolutely no obligation to accede to.

seamus

I wouldn't waste your money on a solicitor unless the agent is taking some actual action against you. The agent cannot enter without your permission, simple as. There are no ifs or buts around it. At best a solicitor can send them a letter warning them not to enter, but it has no legal gravitas.

If you suspect that they're going to enter the property without your permission, do something to find out if/when they have entered the property. If you have an alarm, change the code so they won't be able to turn it off when they do enter. Otherwise set up a webcam to record anyone who may enter.

Or the simplest of things, place an item somewhere that it will fall/get knocked over if someone enters the property.

If they do enter the property without permission, ring them up and eat them out of of it, then make a complaint to the PRTB.

FishOnABike

You are entitled to quiet enjoyment of your home. The agent or landlord have no right enter your home without your agreement except in an urgent emergency where the nature of the emergency makes it impractical to contact you before it has to be dealt with. Any entry outside of this is trespass.

The agent is absolutely not entitled to bring viewers into your home as and when he wants. His attitude alone would dissuade me from giving him a key.

If you are willing to allow viewings it is on your terms. If that happens to be every third tuesday between 8:03pm and 8:46 so be it. I can't find the thread but I recall one tenant 'robustly' removing an estate agent who came in uninvited with viewers in tow. It didn't happen a second time.

You say your lease is just up, is it a fixed term lease? If you are otherwise happy where you are and want to stay there then some cooperation with viewings (but on your terms) might help.

You might want to check your rights under part iv of the residential tenancy act in your particular circumstances and lease terms and whether you might want to inform the agent of staying under a part iv tenancy before the lease ends. Threshold should be able to give some advice on this.

phantom_lord

Thanks for the replies.

seamus wrote: »

I wouldn't waste your money on a solicitor unless the agent is taking some actual action against you. The agent cannot enter without your permission, simple as. There are no ifs or buts around it. At best a solicitor can send them a letter warning them not to enter, but it has no legal gravitas.

TBH if it was something that I could get for 50 quid I wouldn't mind just because of how frustrating he's being.

The_Conductor wrote: »

Your rights are spelt out in the 2004 Residential Tenancies Act.

Link here

The agent is trying to brow beat you into agreeing to something that you have absolutely no obligation to accede to.

Yeah I'm 99% sure he's talking through his hat. I was just tempted to call his bluff about advising me to talk to my solicitor.

FishOnABike wrote: »

His attitude alone would dissuade me from giving him a key.

This is a big issue too, I've been more than amiable with the landlord so far, but this agent seems to doing his best to try and change that!

Grandpa Hassan

FishOnABike wrote: »

You might want to check your rights under part iv of the residential tenancy act in your particular circumstances and lease terms and whether you might want to inform the agent of staying under a part iv tenancy before the lease ends. Threshold should be able to give some advice on this.

I think that someone made the point before that investors are no longer active in the market. So the strong likelihood is that this property will be purchased by an owner occupier. Part IV is explicit that the OP will have to leave if that is the case.

The OP should get looking around anyway, just in case, as notice could be given as soon as a sale to an owner occupier goes through

phantom_lord

The agent forwarded me on an email that he sent his solicitor

One tenant consulted Dr Google and said I was not correct and they could insist on being present at a time that suits them. I told them to ignore Dr Google and consult their lawyer who would confirm what I said. I'm pretty sure of my ground but would welcome your imprimatur before 18:00

That this guy is a professional agent astounds me at this stage tbh.

Michael D Not Higgins

phantom_lord wrote: »

The agent forwarded me on an email that he sent his solicitor



That this guy is a professional agent astounds me at this stage tbh.

There's only one thing for it, make a complaint to the PSRA about the agent. Professions won't get better til the public demands that they do.

seamus

Agreed, make a formal complaint to the PSRA about this idiot. Although your landlord probably doesn't care because he's selling up, no harm letting him know that his letting agent is a moron.

I love how absolutely sure the agent is that he is correct, but still looking for his own solicitor to back him up.

phantom_lord

He included the owner on the emails, I made it clear that I'm happy to help but his demands are unreasonable. The fact that he followed me up with that email is spectacular tbh.


At this stage I genuinely wouldn't be comfortable leaving my place in the care of someone with this level of professionalism.

usernamegoes

Perhaps tell the landlord you'll allow reasonable viewings if he gets rid of the agent or you get a full written apology from him otherwise no viewings.

freelancerTax

if it was me id tell the owner i would not facilitate viewings with that agent/agencey but i would be willing to work with anyone that shows even a scrap of professionalism


remember you do not have to accomadate viewings at all let alone when this idiot "commands" it
dont let him away with this kind of crap

good luck
ft

FishOnABike

Don't waste money consulting a solicitor. I notice the agent hasn't shown you the reply to his email (if he even sent it) - he's chancing his arm.

A quick call to Threshold, FLAC or a citizens information centre should reassure you that you are fully within your rights to only allow viewings if you are agreeable to it.

www(dot)citizensinformation(dot)ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy(dot)html
and some of the other links on the page should give you some idea of your rights and obligations. They do not include allowing anybody come into your home whenever they like.

You said in your original post you were there nearly three years. If it is over three years the required notice from your landlord may now be 12 weeks. www(dot)citizensinformation(dot)ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave(dot)html


If you are between three and one month from the end of a fixed term lease you might want to consider if you should give your landlord/agent written notice of intent to remain under a part 4 tenancy. That is if you are otherwise happy where you are and want to stay there for the immediate future.

usernamegoes

Any word back from the agent?

The_Conductor

usernamegoes wrote: »

Any word back from the agent?

Its not a soap opera.

Cygil

I'm jumping in on this thread because my situation is the opposite.

My brother and I inherited our parent's house this year (he only turned 18 in February and we got nothing until then) and there are tenants still living there. Their fixed term lease was up in January and the estate agent who's handling the house was meant to give them 6 months notice to move out (since the brother wasn't 18 yet and we wanted to give them a bit longer to find a new place because you know yourself what the rental market in Dublin is like). They didn't and renewed a 6 month lease instead. Now that new lease is just about up and the estate agent is saying we still need to give them 84 days notice, even though the lease is up and they were meant to get their notice back in January. We don't want to put off selling the house because we're liable for inheritance tax now.

Do they get to stay an extra 3 months now?

The_Conductor

Cygil wrote: »

Do they get to stay an extra 3 months now?

If proper notice was not served- then, yes, they get another 3 months.
I'd be seriously pissed at the agent to be honest- he (or she) obviously did not do what they instructed to do.

Cygil

We have emails sent to the agent at the time specifically saying that we wanted them to give notice. We didn't realise she hadn't until recently when we contacted her to check the exact date the tenants would be moving out and she started talking about renewing the lease again. She's been told to give notice immediately now.

Guess we'll just have to work something out with the tenants regarding viewings, etc. And get a different agent for selling the house.

phantom_lord

usernamegoes wrote: »

Any word back from the agent?

The_Conductor wrote: »

Its not a soap opera.

I hadn't heard from him in over a week, just sent this.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure I fully understand what he means about a general agreement.

Sorry for not reverting before now but we wanted to ensure that our proposal regarding viewing times would meet with general agreement – which it does.

1. Viewings of a tenanted property will be restricted to Wednesday evening (17:00-17:30) or Saturday only.

2. In most cases a minimum 24 hours access notice will be provided to you.

3. The apartments will be neat & tidy for the inspections.

4. All viewing parties will be accompanied by a member of staff from our office.

5. Keys will not be issued to anyone (including professionals valuers, surveyors etc.) where an apartment is occupied.

6. Viewings for inspection & valuation surveys will have to be accommodated outside Wednesday evening & Saturday.


I trust that you find the above proposal regarding access acceptable – please reply by return.
Sincerely,

runawaybishop

phantom_lord wrote: »

I hadn't heard from him in over a week, just sent this.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure I fully understand what he means about a general agreement.

You all agree - do you? You don't have to facilitate anything you don't want to, but that looks fairly reasonable.

I would suggest that a minimum of 24 hours notice is for every single case, not most

Lemming

Points 1 & 6 contradict each other. So which is it? Viewings on a wednesday evening between 17-17.30 and Saturday's? or whenever they feel like it? Because that's what they're asking for; there's little difference between one viewing and another viewing, regardless of who is doing the viewing. But they expect to be able to access the property at any time with 24 hours notice. And according to point three, even less of a difference between viewing distinctions as far as the tentant is concerned.

Also "in most cases" (point 2) you'll get 24 hours notice? ORLY? GEEEETTTTTTTTT FVCKED!!!

The more I read over the "terms", the more it reads like the agent is trying to give you the run-around whilst paying lip-service to you and get everything they want, on their terms and on demand.

phantom_lord

runawaybishop wrote: »

You all agree - do you?

No I've told him I can't facilitate at that time (I've offered other times). He's essentially decided that's what we've agreed to!




And now he's threatening to enter our place without our consent. Nice guy.

I am trying to facilitate viewings where apartments are occupied with minimum disruption to the occupants.
With reasonable notice i.e. a few days, we are legally entitled to inspect your apartment at any time of the day with prospective purchasers. I am trying not to take a heavy hand hence a general agreement on one time, mid-week, where we will agree access thus facilitating you as best we can. This suggestion has been generally agreed with other tenants. If there is a better time/day for you let me know and we will try to facilitate you.

Potential purchasers come in many guises, some are not around weekends, can only view during the day time etc. We are being more than reasonable in suggesting that we agree a single mid-week viewing time to facilitate this.
The suggested viewing time is 17:00 on Wednesdays. If you insist on never providing access during the week it will get to a point when we will have to access by ourselves – though you will, of course, be advised in advance.
You previously stated “I have —at your request— confirmed with a solicitor that the right of a landlord to inspect on reasonable notice does not equate to freedom to enter for the purposes of sale”. Your solicitor is simply wrong on this point and I provided a copy of email correspondence from our solicitor confirming this. If you provide me with the contact details of your solicitor I am happy to phone him/her and discuss the matter. I am also happy for you, or your solicitor, to contact X to verify what I am stating is correct.

The_Conductor

If he is going to play those games- just say no viewings.
You are not obliged to facilitate him.

usernamegoes

Wow, I would say no viewings under any circumstances. Also if he enters the property file a compliant with PRTB hopefully you'd get a little payout.

phantom_lord

I lodged a complaint with the PSRA, and replied to him that I'm happy to help with any viewing that I can facilitate, but otherwise to stop contacting me as it feels like he's trying to bully me and I find the correspondence deeply unpleasant.

Lemming

phantom_lord wrote: »

I lodged a complaint with the PSRA, and replied to him that I'm happy to help with any viewing that I can facilitate, but otherwise to stop contacting me as it feels like he's trying to bully me and I find the correspondence deeply unpleasant.

If you have contact details for the landlord I would also be letting them know why you are refusing to work with this particular agent/agency and not simply being stubborn, etc. From the agents last correspondence with you, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if he's been feeding the landlord a line or ten to paint you in a bad light and himself as some sort of hard-pressed victim.

the_syco

If you have the contact details of the new landlord, maybe ask what rent is he looking for, if you would prefer to stay? It's not like the new landlord is moving in himself, if the EA is trying to put a new tenant in?

phantom_lord

phantom_lord wrote: »

I lodged a complaint with the PSRA, and replied to him that I'm happy to help with any viewing that I can facilitate, but otherwise to stop contacting me as it feels like he's trying to bully me and I find the correspondence deeply unpleasant.

He follows this by contacting me at 1am asking for my solicitors details!

Lemming wrote: »

If you have contact details for the landlord I would also be letting them know why you are refusing to work with this particular agent/agency and not simply being stubborn, etc. From the agents last correspondence with you, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if he's been feeding the landlord a line or ten to paint you in a bad light and himself as some sort of hard-pressed victim.

Yeah I'm going to reply and cc the landlord and show how unprofessional he's been. At this stage I'm asking someone else to take over. We've basically been model tenants for years, and are happy to help but this guy is insane.

the_syco wrote: »

If you have the contact details of the new landlord, maybe ask what rent is he looking for, if you would prefer to stay? It's not like the new landlord is moving in himself, if the EA is trying to put a new tenant in?

New landlord is selling the place, agent is selling it for them.

The_Conductor

Whatever about the PSRA- you *need* to lodge a case against him with the PRTB. The PSRA govern those involved in the property industry- including agents etc- however, while its a way of making your displeasure felt- legally it doesn't give you any standing if you are in a dispute with him or the landlord.

The PRTB enforce the 2004 Residential Tenancies Act- and its your rights under this Act that are being trampled on. If you wish to enforce your rights under the Act (which includes the right to privacy and peaceful occupation of your dwelling)- you need to lodge a case with the PRTB.