Turbo of the week

tunney

Given the questions and queries about turbo sessions over the last few week..........

If this takes off it takes off and I'll do a weekly session. If not, well no skin off my nose.

Goal of the session is to work on threshold power, not so much increasing it but learning to endure it.

Things you need:
* A turbo
* A fan - opening windows etc, etc isn't enough, even in winter you need a big fan
* HRM or power meter

10 easy
5x(30sec build, 30sec easy)
5x(4 LTHR + 5-10bpm or 105-110%FTP, 2 easy)
5 easy

Time: 0:50
Difficultly rating: 6/10

The session in English is:
10 minutes just spinning easy, think two hour spin effort.
Then five reps of 30 seconds where you start each one a little above easy and build over the course of the 30 seconds to a moderately hard effort, then 30 seconds easy. Cadence for the builds should be maintained ie if you spin at 85rpm at the start of each one you end each one at 85rpm, increasing gear or load to accomodate.
Then five reps of the below
For power users: 4 minutes at 105% FTP, 2 minutes easy(60%)
For HR users: you need to know your LTHR. Now add 5bpm to it. How you want to approach the effort is not "smack the fist minute really hard to get the HR up to the number and then back off to maintain." You want to start at an effort that will result in your HR trending up to LTHR+5bpm and settling there without backing off. The same output should be maintained for all reps. As the reps go on then the target HR will be hit sooner and sooner. Training with heart rate is as much a journey of self discovery as training. Then two minutes spinning
Finish off the session with 5 minutes easy

sconhome

Great idea.

Following.

Solobally8

Thanks Tunney I'm in.

johnk123

Great idea! Thanks for sharing!

pointer28

Good idea, thanks for helping.

griffin100

Did this session this morning. Don't have a big ass fan so did it in the back garden . I haven't sat on a bike since last august so was a bit nervous. Enjoyed it, the 4min LTHR intervals were testy. The first one I did too hard, but learned from that and controlled the effort in the others. For the last one I was hitting target HR with less perceived effort, a sign of my poor fitness I think. Looking forward to more of these.

shotgunmcos

Cheers Tunney. Doing my first turbo in ages and remember reading this thread. Beat doing a boring spin. Like Griffin found first rep hard to even get to my LTHR+5 but following reps 'easier' to maintain for progressively fewer watts.

tunney

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Cheers Tunney. Doing my first turbo in ages and remember reading this thread. Beat doing a boring spin. Like Griffin found first rep hard to even get to my LTHR+5 but following reps 'easier' to maintain for progressively fewer watts.

What you don't want is to go hammer and tongs to get the HR up and then die off. HR is great but really only suited to longer intervals or steady state sessions. The response from the heart lags too much. To be honest I'd use RPE except I think that that would really really confuse people newer to the sport and concepts. May try to define a scale and use that if there is interest in me doing these more.

shotgunmcos

Followed exactly that. Didn't drill it to get HR up. It took over 2 mins to hit target HR on rep 1 and less than a minute on rep 5. I didn't fade or die off. in each subsequent rep I hit target HR at a lower watt and held it. Simply a lack of fitness.

RPE for endurance reps is better alright but you need good knowledge and "feel" of your zones/thresholds to do that. Takes a bit of consistent training :rolleyes:

+1 for continuing. I thnk you have defined, in english, perfectly. A scale may complicate things IMO. I generally find them too vague. Often you may think "7" but its actually more like 8 or 9 or you think 10 but have another gear etc..

zico10

tunney wrote: »

What you don't want is to go hammer and tongs to get the HR up and then die off. HR is great but really only suited to longer intervals or steady state sessions. The response from the heart lags too much. To be honest I'd use RPE except I think that that would really really confuse people newer to the sport and concepts. May try to define a scale and use that if there is interest in me doing these more.

If you could give an RPE scale, I'd appreciate it. Neanderthal that I am.

Chartsengrafs

Thanks for that, gave it a go this evening, felt useful. Keep 'em coming please.

68 lost souls

Club turbos are wrapping up next week so hope to jump on this after that.

BennyMul

Cheers Tunney
Question for you, (if you don't mind)
When doing the 5x(4) should | could you do more than 5 if the power has not dropped below the 105%?

thanks

tunney

BennyMul wrote: »

Cheers Tunney
Question for you, (if you don't mind)
When doing the 5x(4) should | could you do more than 5 if the power has not dropped below the 105%?

thanks

5x(4 LTHR + 5-10bpm or 105-110%FTP, 2 easy)

Keep it at the upper range.

Its not meant to be a set to exhaustion.

I had originally ranked it at a 4/10 and I (personally) think that that is about right. It was suggested by people "if thats a 4/10 will you not scare people?" so I moved it to 6/10 to keep these people quiet.

Its meant to be on the easier side of sessions. I think in future I might do a few variants of the session with different ratings.
Thoughts?

sconhome

tunney wrote: »

Thoughts?

KISS principle and let people modify it for themselves.

If not able for (5 x 4) do (4 x 4) with longer recoveries and build over a couple of weeks. Not everyone has the same base fitness.

Bambaata

When you get into the 120%'s then the pain really starts!!

tunney

Week two.

Going to introduce a perceived effort scale

Recovery
Easy
Steady
Mod hard
Hard
All out

But how to relate these to sensations. Two approaches:

Speech/song
Recovery = Could have a full blown conversation, whistle, sing and go all day at this intensity and not even away of the effort
Easy = Could have a full blown conversation, whistle, sing but wouldn't be going ALL day and would become aware of the effort
Steady = Could talk but conversation would be slightly broken, singing sort of, whistling out
Mod hard = Could talk but not inclined to, no signing or whistling possible
Hard = Silence
All out = groans, maybe screams

Bodily functions
Recovery = Could possibly manage a tug
Easy = Could wee or want to wee
Steady = Not inclined to any bodily emissions, but might feel like eating something if you had too
Mod hard = Hard going, not inclined to emit or ingest anything
Hard = May commit, have vomited, or sensing vommit in your future if this keeps up
All out = May possibly sh1t yourself


The session

Power or percieved effort. HR no good to you here, but the 30 minutes would be above threshold really.

10 easy or < 75%FTP
5x(30sec build, 30sec easy)
10x(2:45 mod hard or 90%FTP, 0:15 hard or 120%)
5+ easy

Difficulty(6/10)

In English
Ride for then minutes
Then five reps of 30 seconds where you start each one a little above easy and build over the course of the 30 seconds to a moderately hard effort, then 30 seconds easy.
Then ten reps of 2:45 at low end of threshold effort, sprint distance olympic 90% FTP, mod hard effort, then for 15 seconds you smack it hard. There is no recovery. The recovery is the 90%
Then just spin the legs easy.

Those I have worked with will recognise this set, those I have worked with for a while know its only half the set. Its an interpretation and reduction of Bill Blacks Hour of Power. Hint is in the name. The full session is 20 reps. Doing the 20 brings the difficulty level way up. This set can be varied by changing the %FTP to be 85% or 95% instead of 90%, and the 120% could likewise come up or down by 5%.

If you have been swinging you mickey and calculating FTP using a too high multiple or off an NP effort then the full 90/120 Hour of Power will expose you.

If you aren't maintaining the wattages (or honest efforts) then bin the session.


Previous sessions
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057400239

sconhome

If any of the many other Polar fans* want I will create these on Flow and share with you through the coach platform.






*RQ just message me

MojoMaker

I'm almost afraid to ask, but how do the ladies have a tug?

sconhome

MojoMaker wrote: »

I'm almost afraid to ask, but how do the ladies have a tug?

Ask them politely and buy them flowers.

Oryx

MojoMaker wrote: »

I'm almost afraid to ask, but how do the ladies have a tug?

If you dont know by now, babe, theres no hope for you.

Thanks tunney for giving me a laugh today. Best descriptions of RPE ever.

zico10

Appreciate this Tunney, especially the RPE scale.

Would it not be better to keep all the sessions in the one thread though?

tunney

zico10 wrote: »

Appreciate this Tunney, especially the RPE scale.

Would it not be better to keep all the sessions in the one thread though?

Certainly an option. If that's what people want we can ask the mods to merge.

griffin100

Now that was interesting. Found the last 9 minutes of the main set very tough. PE was kept were it was supposed to be, with a review of HR afterwards showing effort was indeed hard, but I'd say my power output was quite low by the end. Don't fancy trying the full hour of this.

shotgunmcos

griffin100 wrote: »

Now that was interesting. Found the last 9 minutes of the main set very tough. PE was kept were it was supposed to be, with a review of HR afterwards showing effort was indeed hard, but I'd say my power output was quite low by the end. Don't fancy trying the full hour of this.

Same as you again this week. I found last 3 intervals, or 9 mins tough too. Just poor fitness. Hit LTHR after the 7th interval and sustained it to the end of the set. If the planned RPE was 6/10. This felt like 7+

I sort of liked the 90%. Doesn't hurt but hard enough to concentrate

I could do with doing more than the single weekly turbo :rolleyes:

Thanks again Tunney.

Chartsengrafs

Tried this and enjoyed it. I find these sessions a bit more focussed than some of those on TrainerRoad, the purpose of some of them I really wouldn't be sure of.

shotgunmcos

How many have done this session or plan to? Interested to hear how others find it

cuculainn

tunney wrote: »

Week two.


10x(2:45 mod hard or 90%FTP, 0:15

Iam doing the sessions based off percieved excertion, Just a quick question on this set. Should I go from mod hard to hard by inceasing cadence for the 15 sec or by inceasing resistance and maintaining the same cadence as for the 2 min 45 sec? Or a combination of both (thats what I did this time)

BTW thanks for going to bother to post sessions

mossym

shotgunmcos wrote: »

How many have done this session or plan to? Interested to hear how others find it

have done it, but it's been a while. it's a deceptive one. doesn't look that bad when you see it first, and first couple of repeats you're thinking not too bad. get harder from there though!!

tunney

cuculainn wrote: »

Iam doing the sessions based off percieved excertion, Just a quick question on this set. Should I go from mod hard to hard by inceasing cadence for the 15 sec or by inceasing resistance and maintaining the same cadence as for the 2 min 45 sec? Or a combination of both (thats what I did this time)

BTW thanks for going to bother to post sessions

I would avoid spinning faster on its own. Depending on your turbo this may or may not kick in with a higher load in time.

Combination of both would be fine!

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

shotgunmcos wrote: »

How many have done this session or plan to? Interested to hear how others find it

Have done that session in the past and it looks easier on paper than it actually is. I use a different variation to Tunneys session listed which is more suited now for bike racing i am doing.

10mins easy, 200w
3x10mins as (20sec @ 120% 400w, 40sec @ 90% 300w)
5mins recovery between each 10min interval
warm down

Starting off you would build up the intervals from 6min, 8min up to 10min intervals, generally i would not go above it. The other variable would be increasing time at 120% from 20sec up 40sec and reducing time at 90% the opposite direction. Very difficult session and you would need to be fresh heading into it. Difficulty rating would be a 5 but you would soon work that up to an 8 or 9 as you alter the session.

Very worthwhile thread.

tunney

Aarav Glamorous Level wrote: »

Have done that session in the past and it looks easier on paper than it actually is. I use a different variation to Tunneys session listed which is more suited now for bike racing i am doing.

10mins easy, 200w
3x10mins as (20sec @ 120% 400w, 40sec @ 90% 300w)
5mins recovery between each 10min interval
warm down

Starting off you would build up the intervals from 6min, 8min up to 10min intervals, generally i would not go above it. The other variable would be increasing time at 120% from 20sec up 40sec and reducing time at 90% the opposite direction. Very difficult session and you would need to be fresh heading into it. Difficulty rating would be a 5 but you would soon work that up to an 8 or 9 as you alter the session.

Very worthwhile thread.

Or you could just read Bill Blacks article on the Hour of Power from way back when and he goes through all variations

The below is more like a soft version of Tabata intervals. A mash of HoP and Tabata. (Keep thinking of Tabata Cash)

3x10mins as (20sec @ 120% 400w, 40sec @ 90% 300w)
5mins recovery between each 10min interval

For bike racing I'd have changed the HoP to half a HoP and had it as

10x(20sec MAX, 2:40 easy) where MAX is well well above FTP. 120% a little soft for covering breaks.

sconhome

shotgunmcos wrote: »

I could do with doing more than the single weekly turbo :rolleyes:

Are you not doing this as a warmup to a 4hr turbo session? :eek:

Went to do it the other evening to find I didn't sync the watch. Ended up binning it for an aerobic spin.

pgibbo

Any link to the original article? Not having much luck on Google. Cheers

tunney

Aarav Glamorous Level wrote: »

Have done that session in the past and it looks easier on paper than it actually is. I use a different variation to Tunneys session listed which is more suited now for bike racing i am doing.

10mins easy, 200w
3x10mins as (20sec @ 120% 400w, 40sec @ 90% 300w)
5mins recovery between each 10min interval
warm down

Starting off you would build up the intervals from 6min, 8min up to 10min intervals, generally i would not go above it. The other variable would be increasing time at 120% from 20sec up 40sec and reducing time at 90% the opposite direction. Very difficult session and you would need to be fresh heading into it. Difficulty rating would be a 5 but you would soon work that up to an 8 or 9 as you alter the session.

Very worthwhile thread.

The point JB is making is valid - variety is the spice of life. While you can make a convincing argument for repeating the same sessions again and again that only works for a small small section of people. Variety gets people on the turbo, enjoying the turbo and making consistent week on week gains.

If you just get on a turbo, turn on netflix and spin...... well you'd be better off just having a Tommy Tank for all the fitness benefits you are going to get.

BennyMul

shotgunmcos wrote: »

How many have done this session or plan to? Interested to hear how others find it

I did it Sunday night and did the hour, avg 92% FTP for the hour and for the 15sec >120%, found it more mentally hard than physically.
Did read that you can do this ~3 times a week so repeated it last night.
aiming to keep a slightly higher intensity, was a lot tougher as i have a run earlier in the day, so split up the hour to doing the 30 min twice with a 5 min break in between , and riding at FTP for the last 5min of both.

tunney

pgibbo wrote: »

Any link to the original article? Not having much luck on Google. Cheers

Will email, most of these are not available via Google for some reason. Have a nice 13gb stash of articles

pgibbo

Cheers Dave.

BennyMul is on a mission!!! :cool:

mossym

pgibbo wrote: »

Cheers Dave.

BennyMul is on a mission!!! :cool:

trig still owes him (and me ) a coffee. he's out to level things up

tunney

BennyMul wrote: »

I did it Sunday night and did the hour, avg 92% FTP for the hour and for the 15sec >120%, found it more mentally hard than physically.
Did read that you can do this ~3 times a week so repeated it last night.
aiming to keep a slightly higher intensity, was a lot tougher as i have a run earlier in the day, so split up the hour to doing the 30 min twice with a 5 min break in between , and riding at FTP for the last 5min of both.

May need to take the kid clothes off and give > 7/10 sessions

BennyMul

mossym wrote: »

trig still owes him (and me ) a coffee. he's out to level things up

Im not worried, you will be buying the coffee the next time.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

tunney wrote: »

For bike racing I'd have changed the HoP to half a HoP and had it as

10x(20sec MAX, 2:40 easy) where MAX is well well above FTP. 120% a little soft for covering breaks.

Issue with the 2.40 easy is that if the pace is on in a race you will generally sit around or below threshold and not fully have a chance to recover before you are going again hence keeping the recovery at or over 90% (if you can even call that recovery):)

In reality what happens in a race is the wheel in front goes and you say to yourself, "fvk, i need to go again"....power goes out the window;)

tunney

Aarav Glamorous Level wrote: »

Issue with the 2.40 easy is that if the pace is on in a race you will generally sit around or below threshold and not fully have a chance to recover before you are going again hence keeping the recovery at or over 90% (if you can even call that recovery):)

In reality what happens in a race is the wheel in front goes and you say to yourself, "fvk, i need to go again"....power goes out the window;)

Sorry easy is 90% as defined in the original session, someone didn't read the session

tunney wrote: »

Week two.

10 easy or < 75%FTP
5x(30sec build, 30sec easy)
10x(2:45 mod hard or 90%FTP, 0:15 hard or 120%)
5+ easy

tunney

Trying to keep sessions vaguely appropriate for the time of year.

5 easy
4x(1 HC, 30sec easy)
4x(30sec build, 30sec easy)
3x(5 115%, 5 easy)
5 more minutes easy
3x(1 150% +, 5 easy)
5 easy

Time 1:13
Difficultly 8/10

In English:
Using already defined scales of easy steady etc... ... .
Spin easy for 5 minutes.
Then four reps of (1 minute over 110rpm, preferable over 120rpm, 30sec easy)
Then four reps of (30secounds building intensity in each one to start each one easy, finish fast. 30 seconds easy between)
Then 5 minutes at 115% FTP then spin easy or 60-70% for 5 minutes. Do this three times.
An extra five minutes extra after the last rep.
Then three times of 1 minute smacking it (aka hard, aka 150% +) with five minutes easy.
Spin easy for five to finish.

tunney

tunney wrote: »

Trying to keep sessions vaguely appropriate for the time of year.

5 easy
4x(1 HC, 30sec easy)
4x(30sec build, 30sec easy)
3x(5 115%, 5 easy)
5 more minutes easy
3x(1 150% +, 5 easy)
5 easy

Time 1:13
Difficultly 8/10

In English:
Using already defined scales of easy steady etc... ... .
Spin easy for 5 minutes.
Then four reps of (1 minute over 110rpm, preferable over 120rpm, 30sec easy)
Then four reps of (30secounds building intensity in each one to start each one easy, finish fast. 30 seconds easy between)
Then 5 minutes at 115% FTP then spin easy or 60-70% for 5 minutes. Do this three times.
An extra five minutes extra after the last rep.
Then three times of 1 minute smacking it (aka hard, aka 150% +) with five minutes easy.
Spin easy for five to finish.

To be clear. If you are racing in the next 2-3 weeks. Don't do this session. If you are racing June. Its fine. If its August your main race then its too soon.

I can stick fun sessions up that I am either doing, going to do, or giving to one of my guys but will it fit in your program? That's for you to determine.

sconhome

I'm saving this session for next week when the kids are back. I'm hitting the road while I can!

griffin100

Somewhere in the recess of my mind I remembered that Tunney has started a turbo session thread a while ago, but would never had though it was 5 years ago

Anyway, what with the current confinement and the dusting down of turbos everywhere I thought it might be useful to resurrect this thread and those of you who know how to properly structure a turbo session could post some suggested workouts.

pgibbo

Thanks for resurrecting griffin100 & thanks for posting Dave. I think this will be very helpful to people.

Do you think that level of intensity is appropriate at the moment? A lot of coaches on social media commenting on how intensity stresses the immune system. In the current environment having a healthy immune system is key.

Granted, people will still do intensity but some of the guidelines are to keep to what you have been doing before the pandemic. Seiler and others advising going from 80/20 to 85/15 etc.

I know you're well read so looking to get some insights into your thinking, not being critical.

Personally I've been focusing on strength via BG work and upper aerobic efforts.

I'll dig out a couple of the articles I read after lunch.

P.

tunney

I deleted the set. I don't intend to personally shy away from intensity, I think there are other things that are likely to impact me.

There appears to be a vast amount of opinion on the matter of intensity and immune systems - but no consistent science, lots of contradictory papers. Plenty of stuff on coaches sites and sure everyone is an expert. Lots of DKE-19 affected people

Anyways, set deleted, not an expert so best to say nothing!


(Alot to be said for the BG and treating this as an extended winter!)

peter kern

tunney wrote: »

I deleted the set. I don't intend to personally shy away from intensity, I think there are other things that are likely to impact me.

There appears to be a vast amount of opinion on the matter of intensity and immune systems - but no consistent science, lots of contradictory papers. Plenty of stuff on coaches sites and sure everyone is an expert. Lots of DKE-19 affected people

Anyways, set deleted, not an expert so best to say nothing!


(Alot to be said for the BG and treating this as an extended winter!)

I guess there can be no answer fits all
the facts are until a certain level sport increases the immun system at the same time as you can see how many people come back from training camps with a cold there is a limit to what is good or when system start to get compromised .
If you are used to train 20 hours 15 hours and some intesity shoukd be save
if you are used to train 6 hours going up to 12 hours now with .loads of intensity I would not consider that a smart move .especially if one is aged let's say 45 plus
Health history is also to consider .

At the end peop,e have to make their own decisions and Joe not so blocks who has a wife that is a Dr did 350 k the other day on the bike, but I guess that shoukd safely keep hin in 85 15 lol
But the equation has to be i traing history xntenstiy x duration x health history . Not just intensity

pgibbo

Totally agree Peter. Thanks for that.

This is the Steve Magness article I was referring to above. Pretty much along the lines of what Peter is saying.

Here is another article I read, I believe Seiler linked to it on Twitter.

In the spirit of the thread, here's a turbo I did last week that I enjoyed. Might be of interest to someone. Not to taxing either.

Turbo:
60mins at IM intensity with a cadence of 60

30 mins as
10x(10secs hard, 50secs easy)
2x(8mins at HIM intensity, 2mins easy)

Enjoy.

P.