Am I being unreasonable? Travelling for work

dulpit

Hey all. Just want to get other people's opinion on something. I am travelling with work next week for a training course, getting a train at 15:30 on Sunday afternoon, I will return home the following Friday at about 23:00. I figured that seen as I am away from home for nearly a full week, and have to lose most of a weekend day too, that I would ask for a day off the following week in lieu of this, I was told no.

I am a salaried employee, so I understand that I may need to do extra hours/etc with no additional payment (we have never received overtime pay ever). But I think this is work being particularly unfair, is it?

useless

Id have thought it was pretty standard to expect employees to travel on their own time, particularly if it's a once-off situation. Any of the MNCs (US and European) I've worked for would usually offer the option of travelling very early on Monday (630/700 flights) if it was available, but if not you'd be expected to travel Sunday evening.
OTOH, I know some people working for an education quango who only travel within their 9-5 working hours and would never entertain travelling (or working for that matter) on a weekend.

Lucena

I don't know if it makes any difference, but is it training that you've requested or is it training that the company is making you do?

doopa

Pretty standard in my experience. I wouldn't expect any time off in lieu.

Nody

Same as the others OP; if I need to travel over a weekend to make the meeting then it's expected basically as it comes with the position.

Danjamin1

Part & parcel of travelling for work unfortunately. Nothing to be done about it.

matrim

I'm going to take a slightly different view to everyone else and say that whenever I've had to travel for work, if they insist I travel on a Sunday I insist of a day in lieu.

For the friday, I probably wouldn't because you're just getting back late but for a Sunday I'd expect something in return.

godtabh

If its a once of let it go. They are providing training which is of benefit to them and you.

If its regular then you arent being unreasonable.

Tombo2001

Its an interesting and fair question to ask.

I had a job once where, it was never mentioned in the interview, but bringing clients out boozing was a big part of the job. I didn't like it at all and left fairly quickly.

In this case, its a once off and I personally would let it go.

padraig.od

Asking you to travel on Sunday is a bit cheeky. At least they should do is give you a 1/2 day off in lieu.

GenGenie

I do a bit of travelling for work , if my weekend is impacted, I always insist that I get time off in lieu - I feel its only fair. Its not like you are travelling by choice!

witchgirl26

I travel a bit for work & sometimes am obliged to go on a Sunday/arrive home on a Sat. I've never asked for a day off nor do I expect it. Sometimes we're allowed to travel a day earlier if we want to sight-see etc so there's some give & take so I see it like that.

KeithTS

I wouldn't complain about having to travel on a Sunday. It is what it is, if it's every week I could understand it but as a once off I think you'd be quite petty to ask for time off for it.

If you're an hourly paid employee that's different. I'm on a salary and I get paid to do a job, if that includes working late or a weekend then it has to be done. On the plus side if I'm sick I get paid.......perhaps pull a sickie one day and take your day in lieu, bad form but who would ever know!

PhoenixParker

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect time off for travelling on the Sunday, but I'd expect a few hours not a full extra days holidays, and I'd take it more as a quid pro quo than formally, i.e. I've been flexible with them by working on a Sunday, so they can be flexible later and ignore when I left early to catch a flight or came in a little late due to waiting for a delivery man in the morning.

Also if you've been out of the office on a training course for a week, unless your job is really unusual, you'll have a lot of catching up to do when you get back so I wouldn't expect to be able to take the day in lieu right away.

mitresize5

If its not very regular then its ok ....... if it more than a handful of times then I'd expect/demand time in lieu.

seamus

There's a mileage rule that time spent travelling between "home" and "work" is not claimable, but time spent travelling between "work" and "work", is.

In other words, if you drive from home to a client site, you can't claim mileage. If you drive from home to your office and then to the client site, you can claim mileage between the office and the client site.

You can see how this is relevant in the context of the question. You may be away from home, but aside from the time spent in training, you're not actually working. You don't get compensated by your employer for not being at home, you get compensated for being at work. Sitting in a hotel room watching foreign porn and eating room service can't be considered "work", even if you would prefer to be at home.

But it's complicated. I've never worked in any place that allowed time in lieu for time spent travelling overseas, however jobs that include a lot of travelling typically include a specific allowance/bonus for it.

You are entitled to be compensated by the company for any essential costs incurred while travelling which would fall outside the normal costs you would incur day-to-day. So most meals (because you'll have to eat out), cost of trains, planes, parking & hotels.

mitresize5

seamus wrote: »

In other words, if you drive from home to a client site, you can't claim mileage. If you drive from home to your office and then to the client site, you can claim mileage between the office and the client site.

.

that's wrong - if you are driving to a client the mileage you use if fro your normal place of work to the client site, it doesn't matter where you start from.

suchafunkymonke

I travel fairly often with work in the company I am in now and at my last two companies.

All of them have allowed time off when traveling during personal hours, but it was at their discretion. There is no "typical" offer from a company but the justification that just because your a salaried employee then you must give up your personal time to travel is rubbish.

If the training is for your benefit, then maybe you should put up with it, but perhaps you should look for an employer that treats you as a person and not a commodity.

Optimalprimerib

In my job its marked as time in lieu as I think it should. It is taking one of your free days away from you.

That said travelling is quite a large part of the role

b34mer23

In my last job there was nothing like that, you traveled when you had to that was it really.

Current role, you do get time in lieu for travelling on weekends etc, so I say it's all about company policy really.

Personally I think it's fair to ask but unless you can prove they've given the time to someone else I'd say they're in a strong enough position to say no.

Bob24

godtabh wrote: »

If its a once of let it go. They are providing training which is of benefit to them and you.

If its regular then you arent being unreasonable.

Same here.

Also is the training something you are uninterested in and forced to attend or something that you think is good for you.

If it is a once off and is beneficial to you, as your manager I would find you a bit over-demanding to request time in lieu on top of the fact that the company is sponsoring (with time and money) something that is beneficial to your career.

cml387

It's down to company policy.
In our place at one time you were not given a day in lieu if you travelled on a weekend. Then the policy was changed and you were allowed a day or two if you travelled Sunday or Saturday.

shamrock55

I have never read the word in lieu so much in my life:D

Stheno

Op do you have to take a train or can you drive instead?

tmh106

I work for a US multinational, and it's pretty much expected that you travel Sunday/Saturdays as necessary for trans-Atlantic travel. For European travel, you usually get away with same day travel, though it may mean early departure and late arrival home.

I'm OK with it, and most people are in my experience. Sometimes I might stay over a weekend, fly back Sunday night, get in early Sunday morning. If that happens I just skip work on Monday, and that's accepted.

The company I work for allow a lot of flexibility around start/finish time for work and being able to pop out during the day for a few hours if you need to do something in town, so to me the travel arrangements and flexible hours amount to reasonable give and take on both sides.

tmh

pow wow

If travelling on a weekend we give the travel hours back (eg if the train journey is 3 hours then you accrue 3 hours time off in lieu). Our regular operations hours are strictly 9-5 Monday through Friday so it would be considered completely off grid to do anything work related on a weekend, hence being compensated with the hours back. We'd also give the hours between 5pm and your return time of 11pm so those 6 hours plus whatever the travel hours are on the Sunday.

We'd decide when you got the hours back though, subject to business needs and whatnot. Seems like it varies by industry.

Wabbit Ears

When travelling outside of working hours the main perk is expenses. Booked seats on trains flights etc. Have a nice dinner. Chill out in the hotel. What's not to like? TIL is a rarity.

Dog of Tears

I've often travelled up somewhere on a Sunday because I had an early meeting on Monday morning, or gotten back late on a Friday from work.

It's something you have to take on the chin.

Wouldn't dream of looking for time off in lieu of this.

Teyla Emmagan

Can you get a train at the crack of dawn on the Monday? You don't seem to be going abroad from what I gather.

The answer anyway is that they're not being unreasonable, that's how it is in most places. And if the training is in your favour I would suck it up. I have had to spend a fortune putting the cat in cat camp etc for a week away, and missing out on things I have paid for (concerts, courses, gym even). You can't do much.

Boskowski

I'd recommend looking into your companies travel policies to establish the facts first.

But regardless of what you'll find there I think as a matter of principle you should get time in lieu when on company business 'in your own time'. Whether you'll be travelling for training or any other company business doesn't make a difference. Employers shouldn't expect to get time for free.

However, in your case I wouldn't make a fuzz over it. There isn't a full missed day involved. Different maybe if you were only returning on Saturday afternoon or if you were flying out Sunday morning or Saturday even. As a once off in the context that it's in I wouldn't be asking for time in lieu here and I don't think your employer would be too thrilled if there was any kind of argument over it.

d9oiu2wk07blr5

The thing to consider here is if the OP is traveling to his/her usual place of employment, and if traveling is not considered a normal part of their job, then traveling to places that are not their usual place of employment is looked on as working hours. The time that is spent on work related training is also counted as working hours.

tony1980

In my last job, we travelled quite frequently and if we had to travel on a Sunday to the States, we got an extra days holidays for it. If we got back late on a Sat, we got that back too. It depends on the job i'd say, not sure legally what you are entitled to!

Greendiamond

Why are we so accepting of having work eat into our personal time?

Why should employees give up their weekends for work without getting anything in return. A smart company will be flexible and fair with employees.

Stheno

Greendiamond wrote: »

Why are we so accepting of having work eat into our personal time?

Why should employees give up their weekends for work without getting anything in return. A smart company will be flexible and fair with employees.

It can depend on the kind of work you do, some of which involves a commitment to travel.

I'm based in Dublin, but last worked in Dublin three weeks ago, and will next work in Dublin in about three weeks.

In that time I'll have worked in Cork, Belfast, Derry, Cavan and Waterford.

Most starts are 8:30am starts, and rather than ever sacrifice a Sunday, I will get up as early as I need to on a Monday and travel down that morning, either via public transport or by driving.

I do get credit for the fact that I travel so much and spend a fair bit of time away from home, and the overall approach for managing people like me is very hands off, if I'm an hour late or finish early on a Friday that's fine, so there is a fair bit of balance.

bobbysands81

I'm shocked at the amount of folk who think it's okay to give time to work on Sundays as part of your job and not expect time in lieu back (at the very least).

As a salaried employee I understand the argument that we should expect some encroachment into our personal time, but given that the OP is giving his employer all weekday evenings to attend the required training I would think that requesting a day's time in lieu for the time and hassle involved would be a very fair compromise by the OP.

BenEadir

dulpit wrote: »

Hey all. Just want to get other people's opinion on something. I am travelling with work next week for a training course

Is the training course providing you with skills which will help you in your career or make you more valuable in the marketplace? If so, why would you want a day off when the company are funding your professional / technical development?

bobbysands81

BenEadir wrote: »

Is the training course providing you with skills which will help you in your career or make you more valuable in the marketplace? If so, why would you want a day off when the company are funding your professional / technical development?

You think this company have a social conscience and are handing out training that is not going to be of benefit to them?

Stheno

bobbysands81 wrote: »

I'm shocked at the amount of folk who think it's okay to give time to work on Sundays as part of your job and not expect time in lieu back (at the very least).

As a salaried employee I understand the argument that we should expect some encroachment into our personal time, but given that the OP is giving his employer all weekday evenings to attend the required training I would think that requesting a day's time in lieu for the time and hassle involved would be a very fair compromise by the OP.

But if op wants to do the training and it will add to their cc and is being paid for is that not a trade off? There could be the alternative of booking annual leave to do the course and paying for it themselves

I know eight people off the top of my head doing just that at the moment

Bob24

bobbysands81 wrote: »

I'm shocked at the amount of folk who think it's okay to give time to work on Sundays as part of your job and not expect time in lieu back (at the very least).

As a salaried employee I understand the argument that we should expect some encroachment into our personal time, but given that the OP is giving his employer all weekday evenings to attend the required training I would think that requesting a day's time in lieu for the time and hassle involved would be a very fair compromise by the OP.

Really depends on how generous the company is with business trips and what the training is.

If it is an costly training that will give a good certification to put on his CV and he will be staying in a nice hotel with a good budget for meals, it is not the same as staying at a cheap hotel to attend some boring cheap training given by a colleague from a different office that will only be applicable to his particular job/company.

To me it depends on the balance between how much the training is beneficial to the employer and the employee. If the employer is being nice paying for a well recognised certification that is not absolutely needed for the job and the employee keeps asking for more, they might as well just say that if he can't make time for the journey to the training location the training is cancelled. I've been in that situation with my previous employer and I don't think it would have came to anyone's mind in the team to ask for time in lieu.

Stheno

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You think this company have a social conscience and are handing out training that is not going to be of benefit to them?

I can think of at least three large companies here who if offering redundancy include training packages worth thousands to help employees find a new job

BenEadir

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You think this company have a social conscience and are handing out training that is not going to be of benefit to them?

Of course it will be of benefit to them, why on earth would they be paying for it otherwise? Is that a real question?

How about this. If both the company and the OP share the benefits from the training why don't they also share the cost? The company is paying for the training, paying for the transport to and from the training, paying for accommodation and meals etc for the OP and paying the OP's salary whilst he /she is on the training course. Basically the company is paying all the cost but isn't receiving all the benefit. Is that fair?

I think the OP should offer to work an extra few days FOC as a contribution towards the benefit he /she is personally receiving from the generosity of the company.

bobbysands81

BenEadir wrote: »

Of course it will be of benefit to them, why on earth would they be paying for it otherwise? Is that a real question?

How about this. If both the company and the OP share the benefits from the training why don't they also share the cost? The company is paying for the training, paying for the transport to and from the training, paying for accommodation and meals etc for the OP and paying the OP's salary whilst he /she is on the training course. Basically the company is paying all the cost but isn't receiving all the benefit. Is that fair?

I think the OP should offer to work an extra few days FOC as a contribution towards the benefit he /she is personally receiving from the generosity of the company.

Going by your logic companies are altruistic vessels that dispense training for the good of their employees. Companies don't hand out training that they get no return on, that would be madness. Nor do they hand out training for the benefit of the employee (except in circumstances outlined above relating to redundancy), training is given solely for the benefit of the company.

In your scenario should the employee not be paying Benefit in Kind seeing as you view training as a form of payment?

Companies exist to make profit, no other reason. If training a staff member leads to more profit then that's what they'll do.

BenEadir

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Going by your logic companies are altruistic vessels that dispense training for the good of their employees.

No, you're just misinterpreting what I actually said to try and justify your subsequent point. I agree 100% that companies exist to maximise profits and if training an employee will enhance profits then the company will make the investment to secure the increased profits.

However, you seem to be ignoring the fact that although the company is paying for and will benefit from their employee having additional skills the employee also personally benefits by taking the training course and will take this enhanced value with them when they leave to work for another company. Do you not even acknowledge that the employee derives a personal benefit from attaining new skills paid for by the company?

bobbysands81 wrote: »

In your scenario should the employee not be paying Benefit in Kind seeing as you view training as a form of payment?

Companies exist to make profit, no other reason. If training a staff member leads to more profit then that's what they'll do.

For tax purposes training is deemed to be "necessarily incurred in the course of employment" so is therefore not deemed a benefit in kind.

Uncle Ben

dulpit wrote: »

Hey all. Just want to get other people's opinion on something. I am travelling with work next week for a training course, getting a train at 15:30 on Sunday afternoon, I will return home the following Friday at about 23:00. I figured that seen as I am away from home for nearly a full week, and have to lose most of a weekend day too, that I would ask for a day off the following week in lieu of this, I was told no.

I am a salaried employee, so I understand that I may need to do extra hours/etc with no additional payment (we have never received overtime pay ever). But I think this is work being particularly unfair, is it?

I don't think you're being unreasonable at all. I am amazed however that so many people on here think its reasonable for you to get up on a Sunday afternoon and not return until Friday midnight because you can put a course on a CV or because you get to have a nice meal on a train.

Go into your boss and tell him you want overtime or time off. He/she might respect you for it.

BenEadir

Uncle Ben wrote: »

Go into your boss and tell him you want overtime or time off. He/she might respect you for it.

Or he/she might take the view that next time there's an opportunity to help someone develop their career they'll offer it to someone who appreciates it. I know I would.

It's strange how some people want to claim half a day or a day off for giving the company a few extra hours of their time when the company are paying to enhance their skills and market value but I've never heard the same people argue that when staff take a couple of hours off here and there to attend to personal business that they should give some of their salary back to the company. Give and take doesn't exist for such people, just take! Sad 1970's "us and them" type attitude. Who says the dinosaurs are all dead?

Andrea B.

Interesting topic
In my opinion, as there is a high absence of company policies here;
If it is not a frequent occurrence in a salaried role, then soak it up. What is the big deal?
If regular, then it should be brought to the table and ensured that it is considered for compensation of some sort.
cently a salaried report of mine asked for a half day off as lieu for time worked. I knew that if I challenged he would cite a recent UK trip that he got home at 10pm from.
Instead, I told him that in my opinion, and to please correct me if wrong, "give and take also encompasses leaving early, arriving late, personal calls, extended breaks, personal internet, personal chats, NCT.....etc, so let us never get to the point of measuring here, as I think I know which way pendulum will swing. Take your half day on this occasion".
With this person, I do not expect to hear any more, as a good give-take relationship exists relating to all other aspects of work relationship and duties.

Uncle Ben

BenEadir wrote: »

Or he/she might take the view that next time there's an opportunity to help someone develop their career they'll offer it to someone who appreciates it. I know I would.

It's strange how some people want to claim half a day or a day off for giving the company a few extra hours of their time when the company are paying to enhance their skills and market value but I've never heard the same people argue that when staff take a couple of hours off here and there to attend to personal business that they should give some of their salary back to the company. Give and take doesn't exist for such people, just take! Sad 1970's "us and them" type attitude. Who says the dinosaurs are all dead?

Perhaps I've just worked with progressive employers. The most recent course I did took place in Tullamore about 2 hours from my work address . Amongst all the bumpf for the course was one A4 page with sections for milage travelled @97 cents per mile.Subsistence receipted up to €20 per day and extra hours claimed on top of normal working week. All to be claimed correctly through HR ASAP on training code ######. No questions asked

New Home

Company policy or no company policy, it might be worth your while to take a look at the Working Time Act.

Manach

Not directly commenting but remarking in some companies I'm aware is expected for weekends to be spent moving from one sales/marketing location to another so as to be ready with clients M-F. It is the "done" thing so as to meet expectations of the company culture. For the OP I'd hope this would be a rare/one off and not the start of a trend.

BenEadir

New Home wrote: »

Company policy or no company policy, it might be worth your while to take a look at the Working Time Act.

Only if you average over 48 hours per week in the long term and BTW, under the Working time Act there is no statutory obligation on employers to pay employees for work completed in overtime. See http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/hours_of_work/working_week.html

BenEadir

Manach wrote: »

Not directly commenting but remarking in some companies I'm aware is expected for weekends to be spent moving from one sales/marketing location to another so as to be ready with clients M-F. It is the "done" thing so as to meet expectations of the company culture. For the OP I'd hope this would be a rare/one off and not the start of a trend.

f the work is too hard or the hours are too long either negotiate a salary which reflects the hours/work you are required to do or leave, there are no chains on the door. Companies which don't treat staff well (at least fairly) will struggle to recruit and retain staff. It's economically better to have a settled happy workforce than constant staff turnover.