Is Dublin Saturated for Web Design/Hosting/Marketing Agencies?

Graham

devildriver wrote: »

Nothing wrong at all about being honest upfront.

This one gobsmacked me a little:

http://paradoxoneday.com/

That's an unusual approach, looks like they throw a bunch of people at the customers requirements for a single day hackathon style.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

i think Dublin is definitely saturated for web design. there's only so many government contracts going around and most of the old players have the contacts made to get them. those tenders that have to be sent out are just for show, the lemon in the civil service is just going to go with who he's used to and who haven't let him down before. which i'd do as well in fairness.

the private sector can support very few design shops IMO.

devildriver

Graham wrote: »

That's an unusual approach, looks like they throw a bunch of people at the customers requirements for a single day hackathon style.

Yes I actually thought it was a good idea, even though the pricetag was a bit high and they are obviously very capable designers. But when I saw that it was just for a Squarespace site it thought it was a bit rich!

Graham

devildriver wrote: »

Yes I actually thought it was a good idea, even though the pricetag was a bit high and they are obviously very capable designers. But when I saw that it was just for a Squarespace site it thought it was a bit rich!

That depends, If I remember correctly it's possible to create custom templates/themes for Squarespace. If you walk away with a brand and a one-off design Squarespace site that you can maintain yourself it's not so bad.

The Corinthian

Graham wrote: »

That's an unusual approach, looks like they throw a bunch of people at the customers requirements for a single day hackathon style.

Actually, I think it's inspired. Perfect for the 'it's not rocket science' clients. They turn up for the day, have a full day with a number of resources devoted to them and if (or when) a day isn't enough because they spiral into feature creep, or screwed up on supplying media assets or other content, or similar they realize this and have to either accept what they can get in that day or pay for another day.

georgiecasey wrote: »

i think Dublin is definitely saturated for web design. there's only so many government contracts going around and most of the old players have the contacts made to get them. those tenders that have to be sent out are just for show, the lemon in the civil service is just going to go with who he's used to and who haven't let him down before. which i'd do as well in fairness.

It can be done - the 'old players' are stealing each other's public and semi-state clients all the time, but it requires very aggressive sales, with talented sales / account staff, which a lot of small companies cannot afford (or more often don't realize the impotence of). There's a lot of presentations, lunches and tender responses involved.

And 15 to 20 years ago (don't know if it's still the case), quite a few brown paper envelopes.

the private sector can support very few design shops IMO.

Large enterprises are like dealing with the public sector. In fact, in many cases the line between private and public is a bit blurry at times.

SME's, at least the one's that are not cowboys, are a bit thin on the ground, alright - Ireland's too small. Start-ups can be a fertile ground, but only if they're not 'ideas merchants'.

beauf

Of the few smaller web development people/places I know a lot if not all their work comes in from the UK. Bigger market, more professional clients I'm told.

beauf

Tenders require a particular approach. Many are not used to the level of attention required in the submission. You have to tick every box. Leave out details however small and it can knock you out. There's a lot of hand holding which isn't for everyone. Probably the man hours required to do tenders properly, make it not viable for smaller places. Also there usually isn't a quick return, which makes it less attractive so somewhere operating on a small budget.

The Corinthian

beauf wrote: »

Of the few smaller web development people/places I know a lot if not all their work comes in from the UK. Bigger market, more professional clients I'm told.

I'd agree. Business in Ireland is all too often treated as some sort of horse trade where people try to 'get away' with things.

beauf wrote: »

Tenders require a particular approach. Many are not used to the level of attention required in the submission.

I've been on both sides of the tendering process and from the reviewing side of things I'd say the two most common deal-breakers are:

• The tender being responded to is not actually responded to - the respondent offers a solution that is vaguely connected to the RFT, with functionality sought not addressed and functionality not sought discussed in detail.
• The actual tender is a two page document padded out with thirty pages of generic marketing material about the development consultancy.

Also there usually isn't a quick return, which makes it less attractive so somewhere operating on a small budget.

You can get the sunk cost down, by using templates (although there's a danger to using those), but even then I'd agree it's significant. Ultimately, you have to get your money back in your rate.

Graham

The Corinthian wrote: »

Actually, I think it's inspired. Perfect for the 'it's not rocket science' clients. They turn up for the day, have a full day with a number of resources devoted to them and if (or when) a day isn't enough because they spiral into feature creep, or screwed up on supplying media assets or other content, or similar they realize this and have to either accept what they can get in that day or pay for another day.

I actually really like the approach, I can see a lot of value in it from both client and supplier perspectives.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Ultimately, you have to get your money back in your rate.

It's the tenders you win that pay for the tenders you loose, for that reason alone forcing tenders for smaller projects often either costs more than a direct appointment or delivers lower quality.

Atomico

Zero bar to entry (if you have the basic skills) means the market in Dublin is pretty saturated for both web design and online marketing. Just google 'web design', 'SEO' and similar - pages upon pages of results..

I've seen the inner workings of a small-medium web design agency first hand - one based in the city centre with hundreds of clients and in business for 15 years now. The daily grind is not securing clients, but cash flow - getting them to pay! Never mind pay in time - just getting them to send you payment for the work you've done in the first place.

That combined with managing feature / scope creep, difficult / overly demanding clients, and trying to make a profit on each job means that you are much better off trying to carve a niche as a high end provider that is more selective about the jobs and clients you take on. Think more the big company with a €50k starting budget, or as close as you can get to that.

antoinolachtnai

I think there is something in it for the really small operator who can do everything, and occasionally bring in partners to do slightly more complicated stuff.

There is also something in a larger agency, which is big enough to be able to really bring a lot of skills to bear and to extract the premium from large clients, and deal with the cashflow problems. These are the people who are going to get most of the 50k+ work.

There is a valley in between, however, which can be quite a dark place.

Atomico

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I think there is something in it for the really small operator who can do everything, and occasionally bring in partners to do slightly more complicated stuff.

This is true. If a firm has a good process in place for bringing clients on board, managing them and managing projects, then it can work, especially when overheads are kept to a minimum.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

There is a valley in between, however, which can be quite a dark place.

I think this is when how a business manages itself really comes into play. That will invariably come down to how organised the management is, how they work with clients, manage creditors, etc. Large variance in those terms among different agencies I'm thinking..

The Corinthian

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I think there is something in it for the really small operator who can do everything, and occasionally bring in partners to do slightly more complicated stuff.

Your're still stuck in the glory days of Webmasters there, I see

Honestly, I can see it working in consultancy, where the actual work is done by outsourced resources - but the consultant knows enough to do the big picture, as it were, but that's about it. They'll never be the best designer and programmer and SEO expert and so on, at least not enough to differentiate themselves from the new entrants.

The main problem, for the Irish market, though is a very small outfit is that their market would be likely limited to dealing with very small clients, unless they're very good at upselling themselves.

beauf

I don't think the margins are there. Most people do it for a while, then give it up as too much effort for too little reward.

As someone said earlier, a rite of passage.

The flood of template sites and things like WordPress only squeeze it harder.

antoinolachtnai

The Corinthian wrote: »

Your're still stuck in the glory days of Webmasters there, I see

Honestly, I can see it working in consultancy, where the actual work is done by outsourced resources - but the consultant knows enough to do the big picture, as it were, but that's about it. They'll never be the best designer and programmer and SEO expert and so on, at least not enough to differentiate themselves from the new entrants.

The main problem, for the Irish market, though is a very small outfit is that their market would be likely limited to dealing with very small clients, unless they're very good at upselling themselves.

It's not really an outfit, it's really just a one-person or maybe two-person operation.

It caters for a particular group of people who want to a website to a certain standard, sold a certain way, for a certain price.

The clients are never going to get the best of anything, never mind everything, but so what? The clients are small. They don't have deeply sophisticated requirements.

A talented person can make money on this, mainly because the product is good enough, fits the customer and the overheads are low. They don't need that much work to keep going, and they can get it from word-of-mouth and reputation. And there is a big pool of people who just want small websites.

The difficulty I see is if you just add a few extra people. The overheads are much bigger, but you don't necessarily have a large enough pool of prospects and sales to fill the capacity. You then need to build the client management capacity, thus making the overheads and the management burden even higher than before. Then you may find you need more talent to provide the full service required, and overheads go up again. It then turns out that there are relatively few clients who are prepared to spend the sort of money required to really get value from what your agency offers. Eventually you will find the right balance, but it takes time, and if you are unlucky, you will consume a lot of cash.

The Corinthian

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The clients are never going to get the best of anything, never mind everything, but so what? The clients are small. They don't have deeply sophisticated requirements.

Unfortunately those are typically the very clients who do want the best of everything. For three Mars bars and a packet of crisps. As beauf pointed out, they're really more trouble than they're worth.

Even then, you're still going to be specializing; in template driven sites with minimal bells and whistles - otherwise you're not going to be able to churn out those sites fast enough to make the numbers crunch. If the budget is under 500 Euro for a site, then you'll want the whole thing go from first contact with the client to sign-off and money hitting your account in one working day. Any more and you're losing money.

Atomico

beauf wrote: »

I don't think the margins are there. Most people do it for a while, then give it up as too much effort for too little reward.

As someone said earlier, a rite of passage.

The flood of template sites and things like WordPress only squeeze it harder.

Definitely a fairly low-margin business. It could be the case that most talented designers who are a one-man band or in a small startup are better off in a job longer term. That way you get to do what you enjoy or love without having to deal with all the 'business-y' stuff.

Horses for course though, as it just depends on the person most of all, their level of ambition and what their expectations are.

beauf

I think its depends if pays your bills (and your families) throughout your career. otherwise its not really a viable business.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

Atomico wrote: »

I've seen the inner workings of a small-medium web design agency first hand - one based in the city centre with hundreds of clients and in business for 15 years now. The daily grind is not securing clients, but cash flow - getting them to pay! Never mind pay in time - just getting them to send you payment for the work you've done in the first place,

so true. you need more hustle skills and neck than actual technical ability. when i was doing client work, nearly all of them were late paying and screwing me around. i only survived because i had one decent big client who paid on time. and why did they pay on time... because i was great friends from college with the head of IT and he batted for me down in accounts.

i see young lads saying they want to go freelance and knowing them personally and their lack of hustle skills, they'll get eaten alive. but as someone said, it really is a rite of passage. now i do apps and Google and Apple collect my money for me and take their well-deserved 30% for doing so.