no holidays available take sick week off?

hagoonabear

hello asking for my friend she works in a large call centre anyways it seems no full weeks or even 3 days in a row are available in the summer for her to take a holiday, so she's thinking of just getting a doctor's note and calling in sick for a week during the summer. they don't get paid for sick days by the company so could she get into serious trouble if caught

28064212

If she has a valid doctor's note? No, she probably wouldn't get in trouble, although it could count against her in future if she has a pattern of lots of sick days.

Getting the doctor's note would be the difficult part, and taking a sick week without it would quite probably be grounds for termination

BizzyC

Can she get in trouble if she fakes getting sick so she can go on holiday?
Yes, most likely she will.

How exactly would she get a doctor to provide here with a sick note for an entire week without being sick?

dixiefly

hagoonabear wrote: »

hello asking for my friend she works in a large call centre anyways it seems no full weeks or even 3 days in a row are available in the summer for her to take a holiday, so she's thinking of just getting a doctor's note and calling in sick for a week during the summer. they don't get paid for sick days by the company so could she get into serious trouble if caught

I am surprised that they can get away with not facilitating summer holidays.

Regarding the query, she may get away with it once if she has an unblemished sick record and others aren't doing the same.

But, if it was me I would be speaking to the union.

irish_goat

dixiefly wrote: »

I am surprised that they can get away with not facilitating summer holidays.

It sounds like other staff have already booked their time off and this "friend" has missed the boat.

Not everyone gets a summer holiday OP, tell your friend to book one whenever she can get time off instead of committing fraud.

SoftMicro

hagoonabear wrote: »

could she get into serious trouble if caught

She could get fired?

If she has a sick note, say for stress related illness with the doctor recommending a sunny holiday. That would be the only way she'd 'get away' with coming back from sick leave and also show off her lovely tan.

Not advising on doing that because that's not a nice thing to do, but the company doesn't sound like a nice place to work if employees can't get holiday leave.

Big Nasty

She should belt away and take a sickie.

Tell her to be sure to put all her holiday pics on facebook too.

hagoonabear

irish_goat wrote:

It sounds like other staff have already booked their time off and this "friend" has missed the boat.

this is what happened I think, but I ll have to show her this thread later just to change her mind thanks

XxMCRxBabyxX

Maybe don't let her wrestle any sharks while she's away

hagoonabear

that's hilarious I ll have to send her this through email

Goat the dote

Big Nasty wrote: »

She should belt away and take a sickie.

Tell her to be sure to put all her holiday pics on facebook too.

I know someone who got fired for this-would probably have been caught out anyway but the fact that his boss was a friend on fb made things a whole lot simpler for the company!!!!!

road_high

Goat the dote wrote: »

I know someone who got fired for this-would probably have been caught out anyway but the fact that his boss was a friend on fb made things a whole lot simpler for the company!!!!!

A perfect example of the perils of facebook. Can't be too careful with what goes up there ever.

davo10

A few issues to consider.

1. To go away on a holiday home or abroad she will have to book accomadation in advance but she will have to get the sick note at the time she is going to be off.

2. No GP will sign you off for a week without a valid illness so if the GP refuses then your "friend" is in a bind.

3. Your friend better not have a tan when she gets back.

4. If she has applied already and been refused, they will know she is not sick if she takes a week off.

5. Your friend will most likely lose her job if caught.

6. The company is doing nothing wrong, other employees just got in there with their requests for leave before you. Anyone with kids will always put in requests for leave during school holidays at the earliest opportunity.

jimmycrackcorm

According to citizensinformation.ie:

"An employee who has worked for at least 8 months is entitled to an unbroken period of 2 weeks' annual leave."

endacl

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

According to citizensinformation.ie:

"An employee who has worked for at least 8 months is entitled to an unbroken period of 2 weeks' annual leave."

That hasn't been refused. She could take them in November.

seamus

Worth noting that a sick note offers no legal protection, it's simply part of the cover. So being certified out sick does not protect her from being fired if she's caught.

SPM1959

hagoonabear wrote: »

hello asking for my friend she works in a large call centre anyways it seems no full weeks or even 3 days in a row are available in the summer for her to take a holiday, so she's thinking of just getting a doctor's note and calling in sick for a week during the summer. they don't get paid for sick days by the company so could she get into serious trouble if caught

It's not something I would do but when I worked in call centres many years ago this would be quite normal.

Unfortunately and I'm speaking again from experience, getting a doctor's note for sickness is not difficult in this country.

If she is going to do it, she needs to ensure she tells no one that she is planning it.

SPM1959

dixiefly wrote: »

I am surprised that they can get away with not facilitating summer holidays.

Regarding the query, she may get away with it once if she has an unblemished sick record and others aren't doing the same.

But, if it was me I would be speaking to the union.

Can't imagine many call centre workers being members of unions.

RainyDay

SPM1959 wrote: »

Can't imagine many call centre workers being members of unions.

Which is why they struggle to get a week's holiday in summer.

SPM1959

RainyDay wrote: »

Which is why they struggle to get a week's holiday in summer.

No it's not.

From reading the posts, other employees who applied quicker got holidays approved in the summer months. Call centres can only approve so many staff off on annual leave at one time, in order to run effectively.

RainyDay

SPM1959 wrote: »

No it's not.

From reading the posts, other employees who applied quicker got holidays approved in the summer months. Call centres can only approve so many staff off on annual leave at one time, in order to run effectively.

The posts that you mention are guesses. I wouldn't put too much store by them.

But regardless, if employees aren't bothered about joining unions, they will have little or no collective power to negotiate with their employer.

fits

I think the first port of call should be her boss and ask them to fit in a week off for her somewhere. It really doesn't sound fair at all to me. ( but then we are expected to take three consecutive weeks)

davo10

RainyDay wrote: »

The posts that you mention are guesses. I wouldn't put too much store by them.

But regardless, if employees aren't bothered about joining unions, they will have little or no collective power to negotiate with their employer.

The op said in first post that none are "available", it's not a huge stretch to assume they are not available because colleagues have already booked them off.

No Union would go to batt for an employee just because they were slow off the mark in booking time off. Most companies either allow preference based on length of service, first come first serve or designated holidays when company is closed, op said none were available when she went to book so others got there first.

ABajaninCork

Can she not take the leave in September? It's better as the kids will be back in school, and cheaper as it'll be coming to the end of the season.

SPM1959

fits wrote: »

I think the first port of call should be her boss and ask them to fit in a week off for her somewhere. It really doesn't sound fair at all to me. ( but then we are expected to take three consecutive weeks)

It's a call centre. Staff need to be there to answer/make the calls. other people have booked the available holidays. What is not fair?

SPM1959

RainyDay wrote: »

The posts that you mention are guesses. I wouldn't put too much store by them.

But regardless, if employees aren't bothered about joining unions, they will have little or no collective power to negotiate with their employer.

Any call centre I have ever worked or managed in hasn't recognised unions. Why would an employee was their money in joining one if that was the case?

An union would be powerless in this situation as well.

fits

SPM1959 wrote: »

It's a call centre. Staff need to be there to answer/make the calls. other people have booked the available holidays. What is not fair?

That she does not get to take holidays at peak period. I don't see why they shouldn't try and fit in a week for her!

RainyDay

davo10 wrote: »

No Union would go to batt for an employee just because they were slow off the mark in booking time off. Most companies either allow preference based on length of service, first come first serve or designated holidays when company is closed, op said none were available when she went to book so others got there first.

The union will go to bat if the procedures are not fair.

davo10 wrote: »

The op said in first post that none are "available", it's not a huge stretch to assume they are not available because colleagues have already booked them off.

That's one of several possibilities.

SPM1959 wrote: »

Any call centre I have ever worked or managed in hasn't recognised unions. Why would an employee was their money in joining one if that was the case?

An union would be powerless in this situation as well.

Catch-22. The union will be powerless until it gets critical mass. Once it gets critical mass, it can ensure recognition. Ask Dunnes management. Ask HP who now recognise unions for former BOI staff. Ask Mick O'Leary who negotiates with the pilots union.

Lia_lia

fits wrote: »

That she does not get to take holidays at peak period. I don't see why they shouldn't try and fit in a week for her!

I'm sure the holidays were available, but she just didn't get them booked off in time. This happens in many workplaces.

This thread is pretty ridiculous tbh, of course she'd get fired/in serious trouble for taking a sick week when going on holidays. Someone would be bound to find out.

davo10

RainyDay wrote: »

The union will go to bat if the procedures are not fair.


That's one of several possibilities.



Catch-22. The union will be powerless until it gets critical mass. Once it gets critical mass, it can ensure recognition. Ask Dunnes management. Ask HP who now recognise unions for former BOI staff. Ask Mick O'Leary who negotiates with the pilots union.

But that's the crux of the matter, call centres require a certain amount of staff to be present so holidays are allocated as per one of the three methods outlined above. It would be unreasonable to expect that a certain quota of staff should not be present so this is not an unfair situation, the weeks are just not available.

SPM1959

fits wrote: »

That she does not get to take holidays at peak period. I don't see why they shouldn't try and fit in a week for her!

So if they 'fit' a week in for her mid July for example. Surely they would have to do the same for anyone else who was declined holidays.

where does it end? Leave the call centre without adequate staff to deal with calls that week. Is that fair on customers, her colleagues? What impact would that have on business?

SPM1959

Lia_lia wrote: »

I'm sure the holidays were available, but she just didn't get them booked off in time. This happens in many workplaces.

This thread is pretty ridiculous tbh, of course she'd get fired/in serious trouble for taking a sick week when going on holidays. Someone would be bound to find out.

Not necessarily. If she was discreet i.e didn't tell colleagues, post photos online etc. I'm not sure how she could be caught. Send a sick cert in for the week on day 1 and return a week later 'recovered'.

Its pretty simple and something that unfortunately happens in a lot of workplaces on a regular basis.

RainyDay

davo10 wrote: »

But that's the crux of the matter, call centres require a certain amount of staff to be present so holidays are allocated as per one of the three methods outlined above. It would be unreasonable to expect that a certain quota of staff should not be present so this is not an unfair situation, the weeks are just not available.

The question of fairness depends on how holidays were allocated to other staff. We have no information now to know whether this was done fairly or not.

It's not at all unreasonable to expect an employer to plan for all staff to have some holidays over the summer.

davo10

RainyDay wrote: »

The question of fairness depends on how holidays were allocated to other staff. We have no information now to know whether this was done fairly or not.

It's not at all unreasonable to expect an employer to plan for all staff to have some holidays over the summer.

Employers do not "plan" when each staff member takes holidays, now that would be unfair. It is entirely fair that in small companies, people who have been there the longest get first choice, in larger companies it is very fair that it works on a first come first serve basis. The only way companies can plan for all staff to have holidays at a certain time is to shut down, call centres cannot do that.

We also have no information that it was done unfairly, the op said the dates she wants are "unavailable" it is fair to assume the dates were available at some stage and ither colleagues booked them. Do you think that when an employee applies for leave an employer should say " ah, no, I'm waiting to see who else might want that week before I give it to you, Mary in the corner there might want it". Also an employer "planning" leave time for employees could be grossly unfair, as another poster has said, a lot of people do not want to go abroad at peak times when it is more expensive and busier.

The fairest way is to get your application in as early as possible, as I said previously, any employee with kids in school will be looking for June - August so they will apply as soon as the leave application process opens. It is now mid March so it is late to be applying for dates during peak time.

RainyDay

davo10 wrote: »

Employers do not "plan" when each staff member takes holidays, now that would be unfair. It is entirely fair that in small companies, people who have been there the longest get first choice, in larger companies it is very fair that it works on a first come first serve basis. The only way companies can plan for all staff to have holidays at a certain time is to shut down, call centres cannot do that.

Employers do get to plan the overall workload. If you have 10 call centre employees and demand for 10 agents all the time, you're going to have problems over the summer. You need to plan to have the resources in place, assuming that some people will be on holidays.

davo10 wrote: »

We also have no information that it was done unfairly, the op said the dates she wants are "unavailable" it is fair to assume the dates were available at some stage and ither colleagues booked them. Do you think that when an employee applies for leave an employer should say " ah, no, I'm waiting to see who else might want that week before I give it to you, Mary in the corner there might want it". Also an employer "planning" leave time for employees could be grossly unfair, as another poster has said, a lot of people do not want to go abroad at peak times when it is more expensive and busier.

That's right, we have no information that it was done unfairly. We also have no information that it was done fairly. Let's wait and see before we rush to judgement either way.

Mrs OBumble

RainyDay wrote: »

Employers do get to plan the overall workload. If you have 10 call centre employees and demand for 10 agents all the time, you're going to have problems over the summer. You need to plan to have the resources in place, assuming that some people will be on holidays.

Indeed. But summer is only 8 weeks long (depending on how you define it).

If you have 10 employees, then giving them each a 2 week break over summer would take 20 person-weeks.

If you can let 3 be away at a time, then this would take 20/3 = 7 (roughly) weeks.

But if you can only risk having two away at a time, then it would take 20/2 = 10 weeks, ie longer than the summer takes. So some will need to take their leave either before or after the official summer period.

In some companies, hiring temps to cover the defecit might be possible. But not always - and giving out 40 person-weeks of leave (10 x 4 weeks each) while maintaining 80% cover is totally achievable in a 52 week year

RainyDay

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Indeed. But summer is only 8 weeks long (depending on how you define it).

If you have 10 employees, then giving them each a 2 week break over summer would take 20 person-weeks.

If you can let 3 be away at a time, then this would take 20/3 = 7 (roughly) weeks.

But if you can only risk having two away at a time, then it would take 20/2 = 10 weeks, ie longer than the summer takes. So some will need to take their leave either before or after the official summer period.

In some companies, hiring temps to cover the defecit might be possible. But not always - and giving out 40 person-weeks of leave (10 x 4 weeks each) while maintaining 80% cover is totally achievable in a 52 week year

I was thinking about a 12 week summer, but that's not the point really. The point is that management need to plan for people to take leave.

In most cases, it is not at all unreasonable for staff to expect to be able to take some leave over the summer. If this is not the case, it should be made very clear to staff up front that the nature of the work means no summer holliers.

Even with planning, there will be times where management may have to refuse holidays. Maybe this is one of those cases, or maybe not. It's not clear from the information provided.

Either way, planning to call in sick for a week is madness. I'd have thought it would be fairly hard to get a 5-day cert from any decent doc. You are more likely to get a 3-day cert, and what happens then?

Tarzana2

Lia_lia wrote: »

This thread is pretty ridiculous tbh, of course she'd get fired/in serious trouble for taking a sick week when going on holidays. Someone would be bound to find out.

+1, it'd be so easy to forget and start telling a "Ooh, guess what happened on my holiday" anecdote or something.

As well as that, there's the whole boy who cried wolf thing. What if you got genuinely sick later in the year and had to take more time off? Could spell trouble for your job.

Mr. Loverman

I never understand these sorts of threads.

Asking us is it ok to scam her employer.

You're going to get two types of answers.

1. The angry people who think all employers are evil so they say you should do it.

2. Everyone else who points out if you get caught you'll get fired and obviously that this is a shady thing to do.

What is the point?

You want us to say it's the right thing to do...?

skallywag

SPM1959 wrote: »

Unfortunately and I'm speaking again from experience, getting a doctor's note for sickness is not difficult in this country..

It's pretty easy no matter where you are if you are any way convincing and do a little research before you speak to your doctor, which is very easy in this day and age. Doctor's are always going to verge on the side of caution.