Development of the Wicklow Arms

cocker5

I believe there is a meeting in the old school house in Delgany tonight at 8pm to discuss the redevelopment for the Wicklow Arms ...

Proposed development...

18 Residential Units (apartments i think)
60 car spaces
Retail Units
Some offices
Public House (thank god for that)

loyatemu

cocker5 wrote: »

Public House (thank god for that)

yeah, the previous one was such a success for its many owners.

cocker5

loyatemu wrote: »

yeah, the previous one was such a success for its many owners.

Many owners? The Byrnes owned it for years... its was leased out from time to time.

Im fact Years ago it did a roaring trade.... its all about who's running the place.

I think it would be a great addition and could do quiet well - IF its run correctly .................considering you cant get into the Horse and hound most weekends

loyatemu

Lots of pubs were a success years ago - times have changed. The Inn and the Arms would have got a lot of their trade from Greystones and other areas outside of Delgany, there's a reason they have big car parks.

Whoever runs it will also probably have to pay a substantial rent which I'm guessing the H&H doesn't have.

cocker5

loyatemu wrote: »

Lots of pubs were a success years ago - times have changed. The Inn and the Arms would have got a lot of their trade from Greystones and other areas outside of Delgany, there's a reason they have big car parks.

Whoever runs it will also probably have to pay a substantial rent which I'm guessing the H&H doesn't have.

Yes your right times have changed and Delgany and Greystones, both have grown massively in the last 10 years with all the new housing estates etc, so personally i cant see there being a huge problem if its done well.

Maybe the new owner will run it himself? No difference to Mrs Robinsons.. they have high rents...

Cerco

Is it just the Wicklow Arms or is the car park behind the old Delgany Inn included?

cocker5

Cerco wrote: »

Is it just the Wicklow Arms or is the car park behind the old Delgany Inn included?

Just the wicklow arms.. And the car park directly behind it.. And the Pilates studio etc..

Not the small at park behind the old Delgany if that makes sense.

recedite

In the PP they specify that a permanent (public?) pedestrian link will be established between the two car parks, even though one will be reduced in size to allow for the houses.

cocker5

recedite wrote: »

In the PP they specify that a permanent (public?) pedestrian link will be established between the two car parks, even though one will be reduced in size to allow for the houses.

I think it more to do with a link to belveue hill as opposed linking the two car parks? And it will be via the estate behind the wicklow arms not via the existing car parks... That's my understanding anyway (could be wrong)

Either way I'm sure the old Delgany will suffer will no access to the car park now.

recedite

OK I think you are right. If you were walking from Bellevue/Kindlestown Hill now, you would walk through the two car parks to get to the shops near the H&H. But if they knocked a hole through the wall at the end of the the cul de sac in Bellevue Court it would lead directly into the WA car park.
The Delgany Inn people have big steel gates at each end of their car park, and even though they are normally left open, they probably wouldn't want a permanent right of way established there.

BTW it looks like the big iron gates of Stylebawn House, across the road, have been robbed recently?
That and the other big house, Struan Hill have been destroyed beyond repair by vandals and thieves in the last 2 or 3 years since WCC put them on its "List of Protected Structures"
What Delgany needs is a more open plan village centre, not more "infill" development. You could have a nice open pedestrianised plaza area there, taking half of each car park. It could have pedestrian links in 3 directions; out to Bellevue, out to the shops, and out through the graveyard to Stylebawn (which will definitely be developed sooner or later). And it could still fit in the commercial and residential aspects around the plaza.

Johnny Ronan had the right idea IMO with his proposal to open up the village centre by knocking down the wall at Stylebawn and having a vibrant commercial area set back a bit from from the road. But that was all shot down by local residents association. Some people consider that stagnation "narrow twisty roads, bad bends and extensive walls are an integral part" of Delgany.

There is a lack of joined up thinking, unfortunately.

cocker5

recedite wrote: »

OK I think you are right. If you were walking from Bellevue/Kindlestown Hill now, you would walk through the two car parks to get to the shops near the H&H. But if they knocked a hole through the wall at the end of the the cul de sac in Bellevue Court it would lead directly into the WA car park.
The Delgany Inn people have big steel gates at each end of their car park, and even though they are normally left open, they probably wouldn't want a permanent right of way established there.

BTW it looks like the big iron gates of Stylebawn House, across the road, have been robbed recently?
That and the other big house, Struan Hill have been destroyed beyond repair by vandals and thieves in the last 2 or 3 years since WCC put them on its "List of Protected Structures"
What Delgany needs is a more open plan village centre, not more "infill" development. You could have a nice open pedestrianised plaza area there, taking half of each car park. It could have pedestrian links in 3 directions; out to Bellevue, out to the shops, and out through the graveyard to Stylebawn (which will definitely be developed sooner or later). And it could still fit in the commercial and residential aspects around the plaza.

Johnny Ronan had the right idea IMO with his proposal to open up the village centre by knocking down the wall at Stylebawn and having a vibrant commercial area set back a bit from from the road. But that was all shot down by local residents association. Some people consider that stagnation "narrow twisty roads, bad bends and extensive walls are an integral part" of Delgany.

There is a lack of joined up thinking, unfortunately.

With regard to the Delgany inn - personally id say they would want an access point... their car park is tiny and can be difficult to get around when its busy - they have been using the Wicklow arms car park for months, i think will a smaller car park it will def effect their trade.

Yeah i noticed the gates were gone too this morning... very odd.

Personally im in favour of making Delgany village a one way system.. drive up but down via Delgany wood.

For me i think the development could be a welcomed addition to the area

beepbeeprichie

What exactly is wrong with keeping an old quaint village an old quaint village? One way systems and pedestrian plazas are a bit over the top. Can't we keep some heritage and reduce building generic crap for the sake of it?

cocker5

beepbeeprichie wrote: »

What exactly is wrong with keeping an old quaint village an old quaint village? One way systems and pedestrian plazas are a bit over the top. Can't we keep some heritage and reduce building generic crap for the sake of it?

The traffic through the village isn't good... parking inst good. trying to get around via the horse n' hound during the evenings with people parked everywhere can be a nightmare - personally i think if they made it one way it would help keep quaint etc. Don't know anything about pedestrian plazas ....

The village needs some sort of overall... even a quaint one... the small café (closed and looks terrible), the shop (not much better)... nothing quaint about it at present..... and def no charm there is very little reason for anyone to stop in the village at present, if they did develop the Wicklow arms (in a nice and quaint manner - not generic crap) it would benefit Delgany. they are not talking about knocking the existing pub, just developing out the back... so wont be seen from the road anyway. it would bring business to the area - that's just my opinion.

artvandelay48

cocker5 wrote: »

and def no charm there is very little reason for anyone to stop in the village at present

the Firehouse Bakery is more than enough reason to stop in the village

recedite

beepbeeprichie wrote: »

What exactly is wrong with keeping an old quaint village an old quaint village? One way systems and pedestrian plazas are a bit over the top. Can't we keep some heritage and reduce building generic crap for the sake of it?

The layout was quaint 100 years ago when traffic consisted of one horse and cart ambling down the middle of the road, and Delgany was a day's journey from Dublin.
Now you have cars driving down the footpath as they try to get past a stationery bus that was trying to go in the opposite direction.

Pedestrians terrified to walk around the village; look at where they put up bollards on the narrow footpath outside the estate agent's shop to protect pedestrians; they have been knocked down by lorries. There's nothing quaint about that.

You can oppose all development, but what you will actually get is stealth housing development with no public amenity value. Infill of car parks, and any period houses on large grounds such as Struan Hill and Stylebawn House being bought up, destroyed by stealth, and then the lands infilled.

Meanwhile the village as a place to live gets more and more cramped.

cocker5

artvandelay48 wrote: »

the Firehouse Bakery is more than enough reason to stop in the village

Wouldn't be for me to be honest... parking isn't the best, not keen on the layout inside, its not comfortable unless you get the only seat by the window etc - wouldn't drag me to Delgany.

artvandelay48

cocker5 wrote: »

Wouldn't be for me to be honest... parking isn't the best, not keen on the layout inside, its not comfortable unless you get the only seat by the window etc - wouldn't drag me to Delgany.

Fair enough I guess but there is loads of parking in the back and the quality of the bread and pastries is very good.

recedite

I see Stylebawn House is in flames this evening.
Poor Johnny, he loved that house. So sad.

Also, in related news (or not) WCC seem to be putting in some sort of halting site across the road from the smouldering ashes of Stylebawn at the bridge on Three Trouts Stream.
Public meeting on in the Delgany Golf Club on Monday night 7.30 pm; hopefully more info will emerge then.

Del.Monte

Delgany sounds ghastly these days. I think I was last there (in the Delgany Inn) for lunch about 40 years ago.

Annasopra

recedite wrote: »

I see Stylebawn House is in flames this evening.
Poor Johnny, he loved that house. So sad.

Also, in related news (or not) WCC seem to be putting in some sort of halting site across the road from the smouldering ashes of Stylebawn at the bridge on Three Trouts Stream.
Public meeting on in the Delgany Golf Club on Monday night 7.30 pm; hopefully more info will emerge then.

Halting site? I think there is a lot of exagerration, chinese whispers and rumour going on about this. I seriously doubt its a halting site.

Fiveplusone

I imagine the story has grown legs in the last day or so.

Wicklow Will

It's not intended to be a 'halting site'. WCC have commenced work on 'emergency accommodation' by preparing for one two-storey, modular unit they intend to install before Xmas and claim they don't need planning permission. They propose to install possibly up to fifteen more on the site and include grouped car parking for them - rather than each house having its own drive. WCC have refused to make the plans available publicly on their EPlan site and they are only viewable in person at the WCC office in Wicklow town!

The issue with the site as will be explained more fully on Monday night at the meeting in Delgany Golf Club at 7.30 is that it is well-known and even documented in the LADP as 1) a Floodplain and 2) a Green Route.

Some years ago ABP refused permission for the development of 22 houses for the elderly on the site on the grounds that there was a lack of infrastructure in that location to support such a development, that the site was a floodplain and the number of proposed houses too dense for the site. WCC have rode roughshod over the village centre residents by their actions and flouted the earlier ABP ruling (there hasn't been any improvement in the infrastructure since ABP's ruling) and claim they don't need planning for the first unit they're constructing.

In the first unit their constructing they've installed a septic (or as they now term them a "holding") tank only metres from the Three Trouts stream. Septic Tanks do not operate on a percolation system and only hold sewage which must at some stage be emptied by a tanker. Remember this is in a floodplain, only metres from the Three Trouts. So when, with our ever increasingly wet climate, the floodplain does as its name suggests and floods you can expect the septic tank to also flood and cover the surrounding area in raw sewage as well as releasing it into the Three Trouts Stream! The siting for this septic tank not only contravenes good planning but also EU and by extension Irish regulations, but WCC seem to believe that, as the Council, they don't have to abide by the regulations!

Never mind that Delgany lacks any public amenity space and this site would have been ideal for such, especially as it is on a Green Route; in clearing the site for this work they've felled many trees in the process, and have again flouted one of the conditions that ABP named as being mandatory on any development that could have taken place on a smaller scale on part of the site nearer Priory Road if the proper infrastructure were in place prior to any housing development work commencing.

All-in-all WCC have behaved appallingly in this case and shown complete and absolute disregard and contempt for the village residents of Delgany.

I'd be interested to know why they decided on this location for 'Emergency Accommodation' units, over their site at Charlesland that cost €3m for what was really only worth €400k back in 2011? After all there are far more amenities down there ... adjacent to a variety of public transport options, doctors, dentists, schools, supermarkets, take-always, pubs, chemists etc! I don't think it accidental they chose a site down a country lane to try and stick these 'Emergency Accommodation Units'!

Taltos

I think it's quite clear that the choice here was for monetary reasons. The other sites you mentioned stand to net someone a lot more cash than a hidden floodplain site.

Appalling really but unfortunately not surprising based on past history.

recedite

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Halting site? I think there is a lot of exagerration, chinese whispers and rumour going on about this. I seriously doubt its a halting site.

There's certainly a lot of secrecy, and you can only blame WCC for that.

Annasopra

recedite wrote: »

There's certainly a lot of secrecy, and you can only blame WCC for that.

Oh I know but thats probably no reason to repeat unsubstantiated rumours

recedite

In the absence of any planning permission or public consultation, all that's left is rumours.
But in the end, I suspect the difference between "some sort of halting site" and "temporary emergency accommodation" will be not be as great as you seem to think, despite the different terminology being used.
And BTW, the ABP permission was granted, but it expired in 2013.

The Charlesland site is also on a floodplain, on the banks of the same river. That one was purchased by WCC at a price well over the odds, knowing it was on a floodplain.
I'm not sure how WCC came to own the Delgany site. Neither of the sites are suitable for what is coming down the line. They are suited to a linear park and green pedestrian route between Charlesland and Delgany, as per the local area plan.

Annasopra

recedite wrote: »

In the absence of any planning permission or public consultation, all that's left is rumours.
But in the end, I suspect the difference between "some sort of halting site" and "temporary emergency accommodation" will be not be as great as you seem to think, despite the different terminology being used.

A halting site is generally used to refer to accommodation for travellers. I believe there is some attempts to whip up unnecessary fear mongering by indirectly suggesting this is to home travellers. Yes there are genuine concerns here; about the site, about the planning permisssion, about the trees, about the flood plain, about WCCs actions but dragging travellers into the debate indirectly to fear monger and scare monger is frankly a dirty tactic.

Wicklow Will

Just to be clear Joey, there are no 'dirty tactics' being used by the party who called the public meeting tonight, whatever information they have put out in the public domain is either capable of being substantiated by EU /Irish legislation, LADP or information from WCC reps. Thank you.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

A halting site is generally used to refer to accommodation for travellers. I believe there is some attempts to whip up unnecessary fear mongering by indirectly suggesting this is to home travellers. Yes there are genuine concerns here; about the site, about the planning permisssion, about the trees, about the flood plain, about WCCs actions but dragging travellers into the debate indirectly to fear monger and scare monger is frankly a dirty tactic.

recedite

Anyway the real issue is that WCC seem to be ignoring all EU /Irish legislation, LADP etc... and the destruction of a local amenity.
Not the identity of any future residents there.

If this is deemed to be OK, then the machinery can show up at the Charlesland site tomorrow morning, without any warning, and do the same thing. Its only 1.5km downstream.

Simon Harris appears to be delighted with the "progress" anyway.

Department of Housing are actively seeking more projects in Wicklow and are eager to support plans that will produce more housing supply· Plan to put in place 800 "rapid build homes" across the country in the next year – Wicklow identified as a good location for some of these..

Annasopra

Wicklow Will wrote: »

Just to be clear Joey, there are no 'dirty tactics' being used by the party who called the public meeting tonight, whatever information they have put out in the public domain is either capable of being substantiated by EU /Irish legislation, LADP or information from WCC reps. Thank you.

I know that. I never suggested otherwise.

Langerland

Any Update from that meeting? Any more clarity on this development?

Wicklow Will wrote: »

Just to be clear Joey, there are no 'dirty tactics' being used by the party who called the public meeting tonight, whatever information they have put out in the public domain is either capable of being substantiated by EU /Irish legislation, LADP or information from WCC reps. Thank you.

Wicklow Will

Regrettably not. One minute WCC say they're ceasing work on the site to allow further exploration of options and the next they're back felling more trees and demolishing existing structures. Not very satisfactory!

Langerland wrote: »

Any Update from that meeting? Any more clarity on this development?

recedite

People at the meeting were questioning the legality of WCC actions and the lack of public consultation, planning process etc..
There was no clear answer to that, but the councillors present seemed to say that the council could do whatever development work they wanted up to a certain cost (I think 120,000 pounds or euros was mentioned) This elicited some scepticism from the floor, especially when they admitted they had no idea how much they have spent developing the site so far.

They announced that work had ceased. But yesterday I passed by and there were more people than ever working there. It seems they have moved activities now to a different part of the site, away from the floodplain.

Does that mean that all the hard stand areas and the septic tanks they installed in a flood prone area down by the riverbank have been a total waste of public money? Who knows. They must have a humungous housing budget if they can afford to throw money away like that.

recedite

An interesting article in the IT here refers to the recent burning of Stylebawn

Gardaí have started an investigation after one of the country’s oldest private houses, Stylebawn in Delgany, Co Wicklow, was destroyed by fire at the weekend.

Meanwhile, across the road from the Stylebawn ruin at the "not-a-halting-site" WCC's expensive development works are nearing completion.
A traveller family was forced to leave Bray due to "a huge outpouring of goodwill from the people of Bray" for a 90 year old pensioner who was brutally beaten and will never be able to return to the home she lived in all her life.
Well done to the people of Bray for taking action.
And the best of luck to any unarmed pensioners and/or people living alone in Delgany for 2017.
I just hope this is not all part of some spat between developers and WCC.

Annasopra

Neither of those news reports mention travellers or people forced out of their homes.

Please keep on topic.

And there won't be any anti traveller posting allowed either

recedite

Mod edit:
Take the agenda somewhere else

Annasopra

Folks this discussion is about the Wicklow Arms development. Take the scare mongering and targeting named individuals to other places. Maybe facebook but not here.

recedite

Please stay on topic - Final warning!
Thanks

RosieJoe

Wicklow Arms development has been approved by An Bord Pleanala.

Taken from the Bray People:

Members of Delgany Community Council are 'disgusted' that An Bord Pleanala has approved development at the Wicklow Arms site.

'The general opinion is that the inspector accepted everything that the developer's people said and didn't really listen to what we had to say,' said David Walsh, PRO of the council.

He said that they haven't scheduled a meeting to take any further steps. 'We don't think a judicial review would be appropriate as we don't have the grounds,' he said.

The village-centre development includes 22 dwellings, retail, office and restaurant space.

The authority signed off on the permission last Thursday. Wicklow County Council granted permission last year to Cruslim Property Limited, however a number of individuals and organisations appealed, including Delgany Community Council and Bellevue Court Residents Association.

The plans include the development of 12 town houses, 10 apartments and two retail units and three office units, as well as the demolition of old single-storey farmer cottages.

The cottages currently house a photography studio and printers and would be replaced by a landscaped car park.

Access to the development would be through Bellevue Court.

Some of the objections to the plans included access for houses through Bellevue court, the height of the development, and the demolition of cottages on the site.

The Wicklow Arms public house itself is a protected structure and the demolition works do not relate to any aspect of the protected part.

The planned development includes a mix of semi-detached and detached three-bedroom houses; two one-bedroom apartments and eight two-bedroom apartments.

The commercial element of the scheme includes redevelopment of the Wicklow Arms including alterations to provide for a change of use from public house to restaurant.

A previous application by Cruslim Properties was rejected by planners as 'incomplete'.

Bray People