Problems with our wedding phographer

lazygal

AndersLimpar wrote: »

Self employed people generally get paid by the hour

Really? Our photographer and videographer had a price for their packages, not an hourly rate. My husband has been self-employed and didn't get paid by the hour, but for the job for which he was hired. My mum is self employed and doesn't charge by the hour for her services.

AndersLimpar

And black is white as well

Effects

AndersLimpar wrote: »

Self employed people generally get paid by the hour

That's not generally the case.
I'm self employed and I usually price a job based on the task, not an hourly rate. Sometimes if it's a job that can't be worked out time wise then an hourly rate might apply.

lazygal

AndersLimpar wrote: »

And black is white as well

What do you mean by that?

Luckydog69

I always find it amusing how a person on post #1 of this thread was looking for some advice from fellow Boarders and now 30+ posts later arguments are ensuing between people which aren't helpful to the person who started the thread...its a bit like watching something on youtube and 4 or 5 clicks later you could be watching a lion eating a buffalo even tho' you started out watching Mozart's 5th Symphony!

lazygal

Luckydog69 wrote: »

I always find it amusing how a person on post #1 of this thread was looking for some advice from fellow Boarders and now 30+ posts later arguments are ensuing between people which aren't helpful to the person who started the thread...its a bit like watching something on youtube and 4 or 5 clicks later you could be watching a lion eating a buffalo even tho' you started out watching Mozart's 5th Symphony!

I think its this forum. It does something to you.

skallywag

Luckydog69 wrote: »

I always find it amusing how a person on post #1 of this thread was looking for some advice from fellow Boarders and now 30+ posts later arguments are ensuing between people which aren't helpful to the person who started the thread

I can see that you have not been on boards very long :pac:

AndersLimpar

lazygal wrote: »

What do you mean by that?

Without wanting to go around in circles arguing - a self employed person GENERALLY will quote for a job based on the time it will take them to do it thus that is their hourly rate. A day rate is essentially their hourly rate multiplied by 8,9,10 or whatever amount of hours they expect to work.

Your photographer and videographer quoted you based on how long they expected the task to take.

Button_y

The photographer is probably trying to provide a solution to help you order photos to a standard that he is happy with. If that doesn't work for you, how about contacting him and asking if he can help you with a contact sheet of photos or if you know how print yourself do. Then you can mark what photos you want and sizes and go back and arrange printing with the photographer.

By the sounds of things it doesn't sound like your photographer is making money from extra prints but more providing you a facility to order.

As a photographer I would never give clients a copy of photos on CD with the intention of them being used for print. I would want to have control over the quality of the prints. I wouldn't want to spend time perfecting my work to have someone print on a home printer/tesco/boots instant prints
It sounds like you are looking to hang some photos? It would be essential to me that the photos are sized/adjusted etc correctly for the printer being used. I work with a couple of local printers and know the consistency of their prints what adjustments settings I need when preparing photos for their printers and the like. I'd rather a client contacted me and work with them to get prints that we are both happy with than having crap prints hanging on a wall.

I'm sure there are photographers that use extra prints to make additional money and only provide watermark prints for that reason, its probably more common for portraits/studio shots were the agreement is for X amount of photos but the photographer takes lots and any additional are paid for.

Sligo1

Button_y wrote: »

The photographer is probably trying to provide a solution to help you order photos to a standard that he is happy with. If that doesn't work for you, how about contacting him and asking if he can help you with a contact sheet of photos or if you know how print yourself do. Then you can mark what photos you want and sizes and go back and arrange printing with the photographer.

By the sounds of things it doesn't sound like your photographer is making money from extra prints but more providing you a facility to order.

As a photographer I would never give clients a copy of photos on CD with the intention of them being used for print. I would want to have control over the quality of the prints. I wouldn't want to spend time perfecting my work to have someone print on a home printer/tesco/boots instant prints
It sounds like you are looking to hang some photos? It would be essential to me that the photos are sized/adjusted etc correctly for the printer being used. I work with a couple of local printers and know the consistency of their prints what adjustments settings I need when preparing photos for their printers and the like. I'd rather a client contacted me and work with them to get prints that we are both happy with than having crap prints hanging on a wall.

I'm sure there are photographers that use extra prints to make additional money and only provide watermark prints for that reason, its probably more common for portraits/studio shots were the agreement is for X amount of photos but the photographer takes lots and any additional are paid for.

But isn't it up to the couple to decide what quality prints they want hanging on their wall? Why should you have control over this? I understand you want them to have the best photos possible as it obviously reflects your ability as a professional photographer. But I still think it's a bit rich wanting to "control" the images people hang on their own walls in their own homes.

My photographer was an A class witch tbh. She is the only regret I have on my whole wedding. Having said that the album she provided me with was excellent. But I would have preferred a more average album than the stress she put my in on the day... And after the day. We paid her over 2k. And in my ignorance "thought" a disc would be avaliable for printing. I never even thought to ask as I had never hired a photographer before. Turns out she wanted €10 (6x4) each for a small photo and €50 for a slightly larger one. I never went back to her for those images. And my in laws just printed a few of the watermarked ones and framed them. I won't give her a penny more of my money. (Needless to say I'm quite bitter over the whole situation). My wedding was a dream apart from her (the elephant in the room).

Sligo1

Also, when you say you spend a lot of time perfecting your prints and getting the right quality etc... Then you wouldn't want yor hard work to be wasted by people putting up prints printed from tesco etc up. But isn't this up to the couple? Haven't they paid you for your hard work? Don't get me wrong... I'm under no illusion how long it can take to perfect images etc. but the couple have paid you for this work. We paid ours over 2 grand.

I work in a hospital. And it would be like me saying. We I spent ages with this patient. I educated them on what to do and what not to do, what not eat and not to smoke as it could exacerbate their condition. I could spend hours with them doing this. Encouraging them, motivating them. Yet when I see them again for follow up they have taken none of my advice. There's nothing I can do
About that. I'm still paid for my work irregardless. Yes I spent a lot of time with that particular patient... But I was paid to do so. And what they do after is their perogative irregardless of what I think or would like.

The only difference is... Legally, you guys (photographers) do have the final say. As you have the copyright. Its something that irks me massively....

lazygal

I used to work in retail, one job involved working on commission. I'd often spend ages with a customer, only for them to walk away and say they'd think about buying and I knew I'd never see them again or they'd head to a shop and buy a cheaper imitation product. I had sales targets to meet and monthly reviews and if I didn't meet the targets I got a grilling. Just because your job involves spending a lot of time on something doesn't always mean you'll get a payoff.

Sligo, that is a pain. I spent a good bit of time choosing our photographer and I had been warned to choose someone I wouldn't mind being around on the day and to scrutinise the contract. We saw someone else badly burned by these things before we got married. It isn't nice to have those bad memories of your wedding day.

Sligo1

lazygal wrote: »

I used to work in retail, one job involved working on commission. I'd often spend ages with a customer, only for them to walk away and say they'd think about buying and I knew I'd never see them again or they'd head to a shop and buy a cheaper imitation product. I had sales targets to meet and monthly reviews and if I didn't meet the targets I got a grilling. Just because your job involves spending a lot of time on something doesn't always mean you'll get a payoff.

Sligo, that is a pain. I spent a good bit of time choosing our photographer and I had been warned to choose someone I wouldn't mind being around on the day and to scrutinise the contract. We saw someone else badly burned by these things before we got married. It isn't nice to have those bad memories of your wedding day.

Lazygal, I could actually go on and on and on tbh. I barely even made my own drinks reception due to her dragging me all over the place posing. My wedding planner had to give out to her at one stage as she was continuously holding everything up. I chose her because I liked her images. But as I said I would've preferred somethig slightly more unintrusive.

Then she wanted another €300 for a disk of images that she had already edited and perfected (as they were in our album). So there was no extra work she would've been doing.

I still look at her as the only thing I would've changed about my wedding. As she has a massive impact if I'm honest. I only really relaxed and started enjoying myself after she left at 6pm. Anyway... I will stop my rant now.

lazygal

God that sounds awful. I had been to so many weddings where the couple disappeared for hours getting photos done that we agreed a half hour max for family shots and a few of us. I'm so happy we did because everything went so smoothly and we spent most of our time with the guests enjoying ourselves. I think if anyone can learn from your experience its to really think carefully about what you really want from a supplier.

Button_y

Sligo1 wrote: »

But isn't it up to the couple to decide what quality prints they want hanging on their wall? Why should you have control over this? I understand you want them to have the best photos possible as it obviously reflects your ability as a professional photographer. But I still think it's a bit rich wanting to "control" the images people hang on their own walls in their own homes.

I guess what I mean is I'd like to ensure that the prints the client receives are of a high quality, if they choose to put it in a pink sparkly frame or hang upside down then that's their decision. BTW I'm not a wedding photographer. I have given a customer soft copies of photos to view, which they then printed on a home printer. Customer was delighted but I nearly wept when I saw them. I'm sure the florist would not supply the flowers and materials and let the couple put the arrangement together. To me its similar, the process of printing or orgainising printing is part of the work of the photographer.

Sligo1 wrote: »

My photographer was an A class witch tbh. She is the only regret I have on my whole wedding. Having said that the album she provided me with was excellent. But I would have preferred a more average album than the stress she put my in on the day... And after the day. We paid her over 2k. And in my ignorance "thought" a disc would be avaliable for printing. I never even thought to ask as I had never hired a photographer before. Turns out she wanted €10 (6x4) each for a small photo and €50 for a slightly larger one. I never went back to her for those images. And my in laws just printed a few of the watermarked ones and framed them. I won't give her a penny more of my money. (Needless to say I'm quite bitter over the whole situation). My wedding was a dream apart from her (the elephant in the room).

That sounds like a nightmare. My wedding photographer provided us with a CD but specifically asked if we would come back to him for prints which he would gave to us at cost price. He was excellent on the day and really took his cue from us and understood what we did and didn't want. I wanted stress free! I think its important to have a trust and a good understanding with your wedding photographer. For most people it will be the 1st and only time they will hire a wedding photographer.

AndersLimpar

lazygal wrote: »

I used to work in retail, one job involved working on commission. I'd often spend ages with a customer, only for them to walk away and say they'd think about buying and I knew I'd never see them again or they'd head to a shop and buy a cheaper imitation product. I had sales targets to meet and monthly reviews and if I didn't meet the targets I got a grilling. Just because your job involves spending a lot of time on something doesn't always mean you'll get a payoff.

Thats not really relevant, is it? That job was commission based and you were paid accordingly on commission. I have to meet lots of couples before their wedding and some of them take up an awful lot of my time - some book, some dont. I dont get paid for all this time either!!

Wedding photographers dont work on commission. They work by the hour/day so they get paid by the hour/day so this cant be compared to a job in retail where you are paid on commission.

An event photographer on the other hand takes photos and sells them onsite at the event. He would be comparable to a commission based job as he gets paid what he sells, regardless of how many hours he puts in.

You're obviously not self-employed so I can understand why you dont fully understand this so I will leave it at that

Triceratops Ballet

I think what people don't consider is that when they pay a photographer they're not paying for photos, (except for the ones included in their package) they're paying for the service of having photos professionally taken by someone who is trained in what they're doing.

While I don't disagree that they are expensive, its comparable to commissioning a painting and being annoyed that the artist doesn't want to paint on the euro shop canvas you gave them. This is their art and they're entitled to want to ensure it's presented in the best way. if you're not fussed about the quality of prints you hang in your living room why not just print out photos taken with an iphone or other guests camera, plenty of guests will stand behind the photographer and take the exact same shots anyway (copyright belongs to the guest who took them but I'm sure they wouldn't mind you printing them!)

lazygal

AndersLimpar wrote: »

You're obviously not self-employed so I can understand why you dont fully understand this so I will leave it at that

I might not be currently self-employed, but as I have said I know people who are. And I have used the services of a couple of photographers, not just for my wedding but for family shots, so I'm familiar enough with different pricing structures. Your model means you get paid by the hour, the photographer we used and were extremely happy with didn't and her standard shooting schedule for the day was from morning prep at about 11am until 10pm (when we got some of our favourite shots). Photographers who charged X extra per hour weren't getting our business.

MrWalsh

Ive used 2 professional photographers in the past and in both cases I was simply given a disc of the hi res originals afterwards so it wouldnt have occurred to me to specifically ask for this.

What I have learned from this thread is:

Never use a photographer who wont give you exclusive use of hi res images afterwards to print whichever way you choose.

Never use a photographer who wants extra money for working past a certain time.

Never use a photographer who is going to be intrusive and cause a lot of stress during the event itself.

Get a contract that stipulates the above and read it carefully.

AndersLimpar

lazygal wrote: »

the photographer we used and were extremely happy with didn't and her standard shooting schedule for the day was from morning prep at about 11am until 10pm (when we got some of our favourite shots). Photographers who charged X extra per hour weren't getting our business.

You're still not getting it. You even said her "Standard Shooting Schedule" This means she knows how long it takes and has priced herself accordingly.

Lets just say you paid your photographer €1100 (just to make this easy I'm not going to include editing time or anything else to do with your wedding including meetings, emails, packaging, travel etc.) She worked 11 hours on the day so she was obviously happy with a rate of €100 per hour. She had all this pre-arranged with you so she based her quote on the time she would spend with you. She didnt agree a fee and then turn up taking photos until you told her she was finished. This would be stupid on her part so she had an agreed time with you so she knew how long it would take and charged accordingly.

Now lets look at the other photographers business models who didn't get your business. The first one quoted you €900 (just to make this easy I've made up this figure and I'm not going to include editing time or anything else to do with your wedding including meetings, emails, packaging, travel etc.) but he was going to finish at 6pm. His hourly rate was €128 for the 7 hours. However you wanted him to stay until 10pm (or first dance which is usually by 10pm) so he agreed to do this for an additional €200. As you have now booked more hours with him he has given you a discount and his new hourly rate is €100. This is the same as the photographer you booked. He didnt agree a fee and then turn up taking photos until you told him he was finished. This would be stupid on his part so he had an agreed time with you so he knew how long it would take and charged accordingly.

Now there was also another photographer out there who didn't get your business. He quoted you €1100 (just to make this easy I've made up this figure and I'm not going to include editing time or anything else to do with your wedding including meetings, emails, packaging, travel etc.) but he was also going to finish at 6pm. His hourly rate was €157 for the 7 hours. However you wanted him to stay until 10pm (or first dance which is usually by 10pm) so he agreed to do this for an additional €200. As you have now booked more hours with him he has given you a discount and his new hourly rate is €118. This is less than the photographer above was quoting you for finishing at 6pm! He didnt agree a fee and then turn up taking photos until you told him he was finished. This would be stupid on his part so he had an agreed time with you so he knew how long it would take and charged accordingly.

Three different prices from three different photographers. This is normal. They charge for their time based on their experience, skill level, how busy they are and various other things which affect their hourly rate. A busy and in demand photographer will charge more for his time than one who is quiet.

You are paying a skilled wedding photographer for his TIME. How each photographer packages it up is irrelevant but each and every one of them is paid for their TIME.

You mentioned you have used other photographers for portraits - these are NOT wedding photographers so their pricing model is different. They are selling you a product - Prints, Images, Canvasses etc. - so you are paying them for a PRODUCT. Their time is irrelevant as generally the sale is made when you have viewed the photos from the session and decide what package you would like.

Anyone who works, whether self employed or not and who provide a service are GENERALLY (not always) paid for their TIME.

AndersLimpar

lazygal wrote: »

the photographer we used and were extremely happy with didn't and her standard shooting schedule for the day was from morning prep at about 11am until 10pm (when we got some of our favourite shots). Photographers who charged X extra per hour weren't getting our business.

You're still not getting it. You even said her "Standard Shooting Schedule" This means she knows how long it takes and has priced herself accordingly.

Lets just say you paid your photographer €1100 (just to make this easy Ive made up this figure and I'm not going to include editing time or anything else to do with your wedding including meetings, emails, packaging, travel etc.) She worked 11 hours on the day so she was obviously happy with a rate of €100 per hour. She had all this pre-arranged with you so she based her quote on the time she would spend with you. She didnt agree a fee and then turn up taking photos until you told her she was finished. This would be stupid on her part so she had an agreed time with you so she knew how long it would take and charged accordingly.

Now lets look at the other photographers business models who didn't get your business. The first one quoted you €900 (just to make this easy I've made up this figure and I'm not going to include editing time or anything else to do with your wedding including meetings, emails, packaging, travel etc.) but he was going to finish at 6pm. His hourly rate was €128 for the 7 hours. However you wanted him to stay until 10pm (or first dance which is usually by 10pm) so he agreed to do this for an additional €200. As you have now booked more hours with him he has given you a discount and his new hourly rate is €100. This is the same as the photographer you booked. He didnt agree a fee and then turn up taking photos until you told him he was finished. This would be stupid on his part so he had an agreed time with you so he knew how long it would take and charged accordingly.

Now there was also another photographer out there who didn't get your business. He quoted you €1100 (just to make this easy I've made up this figure and I'm not going to include editing time or anything else to do with your wedding including meetings, emails, packaging, travel etc.) but he was also going to finish at 6pm. His hourly rate was €157 for the 7 hours. However you wanted him to stay until 10pm (or first dance which is usually by 10pm) so he agreed to do this for an additional €200. As you have now booked more hours with him he has given you a discount and his new hourly rate is €118. This is less than the photographer above was quoting you for finishing at 6pm! He didnt agree a fee and then turn up taking photos until you told him he was finished. This would be stupid on his part so he had an agreed time with you so he knew how long it would take and charged accordingly.

Three different prices from three different photographers. This is normal. They charge for their time based on their experience, skill level, how busy they are and various other things which affect their hourly rate. A busy and in demand photographer will charge more for his time than one who is quiet.

You are paying a skilled wedding photographer for his TIME. How each photographer packages it up is irrelevant but each and every one of them is paid for their TIME.

You mentioned you have used other photographers for portraits - these are NOT wedding photographers so their pricing model is different. They are selling you a product - Prints, Images, Canvasses etc. - so you are paying them for a PRODUCT. Their time is irrelevant as generally the sale is made when you have viewed the photos from the session and decide what package you would like.

Anyone who works, whether self employed or not and who provide a service are GENERALLY (not always) paid for their TIME.

lazygal

Eh, that's what I said - I have used portrait photographers for other non wedding shoots and the pricing was completely different, and I knew and accepted that. I don't think you're getting it tbh, we looked at photographers and we ruled out any that only did a day's shooting up to X time, say 6pm, regardless of their price. The one we went with was one of several who's price included what I'd consider to be a normal part of a wedding day shoot. I don't think you get that you're pricing for a job, and then charging an additional hourly rate above that. That'd be pretty standard for some self employed people I know.

Button_y

MrWalsh wrote: »

Ive used 2 professional photographers in the past and in both cases I was simply given a disc of the hi res originals afterwards so it wouldnt have occurred to me to specifically ask for this.

What I have learned from this thread is:

Never use a photographer who wont give you exclusive use of hi res images afterwards to print whichever way you choose.

Never use a photographer who wants extra money for working past a certain time.

Never use a photographer who is going to be intrusive and cause a lot of stress during the event itself.

Get a contract that stipulates the above and read it carefully.

I'm not sure I'd agree with all of the above
A good photographer shouldn't agree to your first point, if they agreed to that I may see warning signs. What I would say though is if printing photos yourself is important to you. Specify what you want and the usage. Example: A CD of high res images, in a selection of print sizes for use for prints for family/friends.

If you want a photographer to be available for a period of time during the day arrange that, if they don't agree maybe they aren't the right photographer. I didn't want my photographer to be at the house, I knew I would be nervous so asked that he meet at the church. I didn't ask him to be at the reception passed cutting of the cake as I didn't really feel I'd need photos of the reception. Maybe the 1st dance is important to you?

I'd suggest, think about what you want as an outcome(CD of images, Album, additional prints), what is essential for you to have captured(bride walking down the aisle, family, reception photos etc) and what you don't want(photos of mother in-law , photos of you chatting to guests outside church because you don't want the intrusion etc). I think a lot of the stress comes from the photographer having a list of things he/she thinks its important to capture and the couple having a different idea.

Make sure and see previous work in print, chat to previous couples if possible. If its the photographers 1st wedding see other work in particular ones that are taken at a similar type event. No point in picking a photographer based on the fantastic studio work they have produced.

Sligo1

dottie_lottie wrote: »

I think what people don't consider is that when they pay a photographer they're not paying for photos, (except for the ones included in their package) they're paying for the service of having photos professionally taken by someone who is trained in what they're doing.

While I don't disagree that they are expensive, its comparable to commissioning a painting and being annoyed that the artist doesn't want to paint on the euro shop canvas you gave them. This is their art and they're entitled to want to ensure it's presented in the best way. if you're not fussed about the quality of prints you hang in your living room why not just print out photos taken with an iphone or other guests camera, plenty of guests will stand behind the photographer and take the exact same shots anyway (copyright belongs to the guest who took them but I'm sure they wouldn't mind you printing them!)

Our guests weren't there behind our photographer taking the exact same pics so that wasn't an option for us. And an iPhone wouldn't have sufficed anyway. That's why we paid over 2k for a professional. The other guy we could've gone for (who was excellent) did provide a full high red disc. We phoned him after the event and asked as we were stunned this wasn't automatially provided. His images were just as good and the same price. We didn't go for him because the one we chose lived very near us. That is
Literally one of the only reasons we went with her. O and also because I prefered the cover she used in the album (which was the same price).

AndersLimpar

lazygal wrote: »

I don't think you get that you're pricing for a job, and then charging an additional hourly rate above that.

The job was your wedding - for a pre AGREED TIME. Do you not see that? AGREED TIME. Nobody takes on a job unless they have an idea how long it takes?

IDIOT PHOTOGRAPHER
Punter: Hi there, will you take photographs for me please at my wedding?
Photographer: Of course.
Punter: How much?
Photographer: €900.
Punter: Perfect. Can you start so at 4am the night before when im in bed asleep as I would like some photos of that and keep taking photos for me please until 4am the following night when I go to bed again.
Photographer: Emm, wait a minute - I priced that wrong.
Punter: Not my problem. See you on saturday.

YOUR PHOTOGRAPHER
Punter: Hi there, will you take photographs for me please at my wedding?
Photographer: Of course - how much time would you like?
Punter: From 11am to 10pm
Photographer: OK, That will be €1100 (as her hourly rate is €100)
Punter: See you on saturday.

OTHER PHOTOGRAPHER
Punter: Hi there, will you take photographs for me please at my wedding?
Photographer: Of course. It's €900 from 11am to 6pm (as his hourly rate is €125)
Punter: I would like you to stay until 10pm though?
Photographer: No problem, thats an additional €200 (as you have booked more hours he gives you a discount and his new hourly rate is €100 same as the one you booked.)
Punter: No way, you are screwing me by charging me more money for working more time.
Photographer: Emm, what?
Punter: I'm booking someone else for €1100 who doesnt charge me extra for staying extra hours
Photographer: Emm, what?

If you only wanted your photographer from 11am to 6pm then she would have charged less. Do you see it now? Its all the same

MrWalsh

Button_y wrote: »

A good photographer shouldn't agree to your first point, if they agreed to that I may see warning signs.

Why not? What warning signs?

lazygal

AndersLimpar wrote: »

If you only wanted your photographer from 11am to 6pm then she would have charged less. Do you see it now? Its all the same

Nope she wouldn't. She charged for shooting a wedding, regardless of the hours. You'll see this pop up here when people only want a couple of hours' shooting for a small wedding, and they find the rate is the same as the photographer is occupied for the day, regardless of the fact the couple only want them for a few hours. Do you see now? We paid for a day's shooting. You obviously have a different model. Anyway, I don't see why this needs to go on as its off topic.

Button_y

MrWalsh wrote: »

Why not? What warning signs?

MrWalsh wrote: »

Never use a photographer who wont give you exclusive use of hi res images afterwards to print whichever way you choose.

The word exclusive use is way too broad! Are you looking to use it for media maybe publish in Hello Magazine, on a billboard whatever. There should be some specifics on what the use is. The warning signs I would see is that the photographer clearly doesn't value their work. What if the customer decides he wants to have a go at editing the images and does some creative editing and then publishes it online. This could have a huge impact on the photographers rep. While its very hard to prevent this happening giving exclusive rights gives someone free reign.

Toots

Temporarily locked, pending review.

Toots

OK, I'm re-opening the thread. Please keep replies helpful to the OP. If posters want to debate copyright etc, please do so by PM, the thread is getting dragged off topic.