Phoenix Park tunnel: 4 trains per hour from 2016

LXFlyer · 15-06-2017 9:06pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Why are the unions blocking the training of new drivers?

Is the maintenance of the track done by an external company? Maybe training could be too, with training trains running outside of scheduled services?

It is a bargaining chip in their current pay claim that is at the Labour Court.

Losty Dublin · 15-06-2017 11:47pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Is the maintenance of the track done by an external company? Maybe training could be too, with training trains running outside of scheduled services?

Balfour and Beattie do the most of the day to day train work.

BoatMad · 16-06-2017 12:26am

n97 mini wrote: »

I did notice the recent deal done with the unions by Paschal Donohue includes limiting outsourcing. Seems counter intuitive, and undemocratic. Do private sector workers not deserve to be given opportunities to work and earn a wage too.

not if you are a rail union, no,

Jamie2k9 · 16-06-2017 12:34am

n97 mini wrote: »

Why are the unions blocking the training of new drivers?

Is the maintenance of the track done by an external company? Maybe training could be too, with training trains running outside of scheduled services?

But you need someone who know's the route to train the trainers to outsource it.

Rootsblower · 16-06-2017 7:57am

n97 mini wrote: »

Why are the unions blocking the training of new drivers?

Is the maintenance of the track done by an external company? Maybe training could be too, with training trains running outside of scheduled services?

Rail Unions are not blocking training of new drivers.The current system involves a driver becoming what's known as a Mentor Driver which attracts a premium payment of €8 per day before tax. For this a driver gets to be responsible for the trainee driver and take the resulting heat if anything goes wrong when the trainee is at the controls.

As a driver myself I know and have seen what can go wrong and the ensuing sh*tstorm that goes with it. Drivers don't see the €8 per day as worth the increased risk of losing their job.

I myself wouldn't do it for all the tea in China.

n97 mini · 16-06-2017 9:09am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

But you need someone who know's the route to train the trainers to outsource it.

Retired drivers?

16-06-2017 9:12am

Rootsblower wrote: »

Rail Unions are not blocking training of new drivers.The current system involves a driver becoming what's known as a Mentor Driver which attracts a premium payment of ?8 per day before tax. For this a driver gets to be responsible for the trainee driver and take the resulting heat if anything goes wrong when the trainee is at the controls.

As a driver myself I know and have seen what can go wrong and the ensuing sh*tstorm that goes with it. Drivers don't see the ?8 per day as worth the increased risk of losing their job.

I myself wouldn't do it for all the tea in China.

And yet I bet there's a certain amount of money many will do it for.

end of the road · 16-06-2017 1:39pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Retired drivers?

even they would likely need a refresher course if they haven't been driving for a certain time.

n97 mini · 16-06-2017 10:53pm

end of the road wrote: »

even they would likely need a refresher course if they haven't been driving for a certain time.

A driver just retired wouldn't need a fresher. Think Ronald Regan and how he broke the air traffic controllers' strike by bringing in retirees (and others).

end of the road · 17-06-2017 12:22am

n97 mini wrote: »

A driver just retired wouldn't need a fresher.

they very well may do so i'm afraid. they technically would not be regularly driving.

n97 mini wrote: »

Think Ronald Regan and how he broke the air traffic controllers' strike by bringing in retirees (and others).

what Ronald Regan did over 30 years ago isn't relevant to how things are done today, as we live in different times where safety is absolutely the be all and end all. the days of simply throwing someone in front of the controls of whatever just because they worked it a few years ago have gone, which to be fair is absolutely correct where the safe operation of a vehicle carying a large number of people is concerned.

Fred Swanson · 17-06-2017 11:55am

This post has been deleted.

n97 mini · 17-06-2017 12:23pm

end of the road wrote: »

they very well may do so i'm afraid. they technically would not be regularly driving.
.

Nonsense blanket statement. Recently retired drivers don't need training.

end of the road · 17-06-2017 2:58pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Nonsense blanket statement. Recently retired drivers don't need training.

i bet that under the rules they do, that retirement means relevant competentsies lapse as far as the rules are concerned.

L1011 · 17-06-2017 10:56pm

end of the road wrote: »

i bet that under the rules they do, that retirement means relevant competentsies lapse as far as the rules are concerned.

Rules are changeable. There's also drivers under 6months out retiring on a constant basis anyway.

end of the road · 18-06-2017 12:12am

L1011 wrote: »

Rules are changeable. There's also drivers under 6months out retiring on a constant basis anyway.

anything can be changed but realistically, assuming those rules do exist, they are there for good reason.

L1011 · 18-06-2017 12:37am

end of the road wrote: »

anything can be changed but realistically, assuming those rules do exist, they are there for good reason.

This is CIE we're talking about, so that assumption is not safe to make.

Grandeeod · 18-06-2017 11:00pm

Rootsblower wrote: »

Rail Unions are not blocking training of new drivers.The current system involves a driver becoming what's known as a Mentor Driver which attracts a premium payment of €8 per day before tax. For this a driver gets to be responsible for the trainee driver and take the resulting heat if anything goes wrong when the trainee is at the controls.

As a driver myself I know and have seen what can go wrong and the ensuing sh*tstorm that goes with it. Drivers don't see the €8 per day as worth the increased risk of losing their job.

I myself wouldn't do it for all the tea in China.

So what's the solution to training new drivers?

n97 mini · 18-06-2017 11:12pm

end of the road wrote: »

anything can be changed but realistically, assuming those rules do exist, they are there for good reason.

What good reason? Maybe back it up with fact why a driver less than 6 months retired shouldn't be allowed drive a train?

The most likely reason is it'd upset the NBRU members.

n97 mini · 18-06-2017 11:13pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

So what's the solution to training new drivers?

Mo' money!

end of the road · 19-06-2017 12:33am

n97 mini wrote: »

What good reason? Maybe back it up with fact why a driver less than 6 months retired shouldn't be allowed drive a train?

The most likely reason is it'd upset the NBRU members.

assuming the rules we are discussing actually exist, then as far as those rules are concerned, the driver is retired. therefore not a driver any more. if one goes back and the rules state a refresher is required just as an extra layer of safety, so be it. it would exist for good reason.

Jamie2k9 · 19-06-2017 12:58am

Rail Unions are not blocking training of new drivers.

Like all things, they might be keeping on the right side legally but they have a hand in it, you cannot possibly deny it. Like most companies a few hard core members have significant power over the rest of you also don't want to be seen as going against them.

IE could push the issue and have drivers train them but they have to tread carefully which is my there has been no retaliation.

Yes it's a big responsibly on drivers however if IE management said tomorrow they will remove the liability of you to a degree where you couldn't of really prevented an incident I couldn't see drivers agreeing to train them tomorrow and you know it.

A massive part of this is about money, you cannot possible deny it, personally it may not be your own agenda but unions make it quiet clear that driver training and roster changes for DART won't change without pay even though IE have full authority to change roasters but unions will deliberately not agree just like training drivers.

Like I already said they may not be your personal views but money is single biggest factor in IE getting changes made.
__________________________

On the retired drivers comments it simply will not happen. While some could people who retire from IE will still have the same views and of course friends still working for them and the majority would never agree to it and it would cost IE a lot more.

n97 mini · 19-06-2017 1:39pm

end of the road wrote: »

assuming the rules we are discussing actually exist, then as far as those rules are concerned, the driver is retired. therefore not a driver any more. if one goes back and the rules state a refresher is required just as an extra layer of safety, so be it. it would exist for good reason.

Hold on, you admit you don't know if any such rules exist, and then try to form an argument with basically zero foundation. How about less guessing and more research.

I'm not aware of any profession that disallows retirees with up-to-date qualifications from practicing again. Once you're fully qualified you're fully qualified, whether you're drawing a pension or not.

end of the road · 19-06-2017 1:44pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Hold on, you admit you don't know if any such rules exist, and then try to form an argument with basically zero foundation. How about less guessing and more research.

I'm not aware of any profession that disallows retirees with up-to-date qualifications from practicing again. Once you're fully qualified you're fully qualified, whether you're drawing a pension or not.

i have been clear since this discussion began that we are talking about a hypothetical situation. so therefore, nothing to research. as jamie 2k9 has said, it's not going to happen anyway.

n97 mini · 19-06-2017 2:44pm

end of the road wrote: »

i have been clear since this discussion began that we are talking about a hypothetical situation.

So there are no actual barriers, only hypothetical.

The real reason retired drivers wouldn't be hired to train new drivers, is it would upset the union types.

KCAccidental · 19-06-2017 9:52pm

n97 mini wrote: »

So there are no actual barriers, only hypothetical.

The real reason retired drivers wouldn't be hired to train new drivers, is it would upset the union types.

or that they are retired?

n97 mini · 19-06-2017 10:53pm

KCAccidental wrote: »

or that they are retired?

A recently retired driver is still a driver, he just gets paid out of a different pot. Fairly basic stuff. Retirement doesn't turn him into a good-for-nothing.

Grandeeod · 19-06-2017 11:36pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Mo' money!

Yeah I know that's the real reason.:D

I'd just like a reply from the poster I quoted, so I will wait in line in an orderly fashion. The clock has ticked beyond 24 hours at this point.

KCAccidental · 20-06-2017 2:19am

n97 mini wrote: »

A recently retired driver is still a driver, he just gets paid out of a different pot. Fairly basic stuff. Retirement doesn't turn him into a good-for-nothing.

Maybe they'd like to enjoy their retirement. You're going a long way to union bash.

GM228 · 20-06-2017 7:25am

Train drivers (as well as inspectors and trainers) require both a licence and a certificate of authorisation to be legally allowed drive a train in the EU. Both can only be obtained when in employment as a driver, and one is lost when retired.

n97 mini wrote: »

end of the road wrote: »

n97 mini wrote: »

Retired drivers?

even they would likely need a refresher course if they haven't been driving for a certain time.

A driver just retired wouldn't need a fresher. Think Ronald Regan and how he broke the air traffic controllers' strike by bringing in retirees (and others).

They would need refreshers and have to re-sign for the routes, route knowledge is part of their certificates of authorisation, when retired they loose their certificates and the catch is to regain them they must be in employment and refresh (even if they "know" the routes) and resign for the routes.

n97 mini wrote: »

Nonsense blanket statement. Recently retired drivers don't need training.

They need to remain competant though and retain route knowledge which can't happen when retired - to re-sign for a route is considered re-training as it involves a route refresher and re-certification. This can't happen unless in employment with the railway operator as someone who isn't employed by the operator can't legally hold a certificate of authorisation.

L1011 wrote: »

Rules are changeable. There's also drivers under 6months out retiring on a constant basis anyway.

How long they are retired is irrelevant, once retired they loose their legal requirements (certificates) enabling them to drive, this isn't a rule, but rather it is the law.

n97 mini wrote: »

What good reason? Maybe back it up with fact why a driver less than 6 months retired shouldn't be allowed drive a train?

The most likely reason is it'd upset the NBRU members.

The good reason is it would be unlawful for such under EU and Irish law, namely the EU Directive on the Certification of Train Drivers 2007/59/EC and the The European Communities (Train Drivers Certification) Regulations 2010.

n97 mini wrote: »

Hold on, you admit you don't know if any such rules exist, and then try to form an argument with basically zero foundation. How about less guessing and more research.

I'm not aware of any profession that disallows retirees with up-to-date qualifications from practicing again. Once you're fully qualified you're fully qualified, whether you're drawing a pension or not.

It isn't just any profession, it's the railway and this area is now heavily regulated by EU and the Commission for Railway Regulation (CRR), under EU and Irish law it simply can't happen.

n97 mini wrote: »

A recently retired driver is still a driver, he just gets paid out of a different pot. Fairly basic stuff. Retirement doesn't turn him into a good-for-nothing.

To be a driver they must legally be employed in the grade, once they leave the grade or are retired they are no longer a driver - when retired they are no longer a driver or even in employment.

So lets put this issue to bed once and for all, once a driver retires they can't train any other drivers under EU law unless they are rehired as drivers, they would then no longer be retired.

As I said tain drivers (as well as inspectors and trainers) require both a licence and a certificate of authorisation to drive trains. The licence is valid for 10 years so could in future lapse after retirement, they keep the licence post retirement (provided they do regular medicals), but loose the certificate immediately and therefore can not drive trains or train drivers to drive trains.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:02007L0059-20160701

Article 17

Cessation of employment

When a driver ceases to work for a railway undertaking or an infrastructure manager, it shall inform the competent authority without delay.

The licence shall remain valid, provided that the conditions in Article 16(1) remain fulfilled.

A certificate shall become invalid when its holder ceases to be employed as a driver. However, the holder shall receive a certified copy of it and of all documents providing evidence of his training, qualifications, experience and professional competences. When issuing a certificate to a driver, a railway undertaking or infrastructure manager shall take account of all those documents.

This is a requirement of both EU and Irish law rather than IE rules and is not going to change any time soon.

Working class heroes · 20-06-2017 7:31am

Rootsblower wrote: »

Rail Unions are not blocking training of new drivers.The current system involves a driver becoming what's known as a Mentor Driver which attracts a premium payment of €8 per day before tax. For this a driver gets to be responsible for the trainee driver and take the resulting heat if anything goes wrong when the trainee is at the controls.

As a driver myself I know and have seen what can go wrong and the ensuing sh*tstorm that goes with it. Drivers don't see the €8 per day as worth the increased risk of losing their job.

I myself wouldn't do it for all the tea in China.

Did you "Mentor" yourself? Or did you just walk in off the road with all the know how?

Phoenix Park tunnel: 4 trains per hour from 2016

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