Assisting members of your group in singles comp

billy3sheets

Just wondering if there is a ruling around assisting members of your group.

By group, I mean the 3 or 4 ball that you happen to be in with for a singles competition as opposed to a team event.

By assisting, I mean offering advice on putt lines, offering to act as lookout so the player can take on a a blind shot as opposed to help someone look for their ball.

In particular I've seen guys tee off on a blind hole, then head off to the top of the hill or bend to act as lookout or give the line for their mates. Surely this must be an infringement as it gives a significant advantage to the beneficiary?

ForeRight

Against the rules in singles events

Norfolk Enchants_

billy3sheets wrote: »

Just wondering if there is a ruling around assisting members of your group.

By group, I mean the 3 or 4 ball that you happen to be in with for a singles competition as opposed to a team event.

By assisting, I mean offering advice on putt lines, offering to act as lookout so the player can take on a a blind shot as opposed to help someone look for their ball.

In particular I've seen guys tee off on a blind hole, then head off to the top of the hill or bend to act as lookout or give the line for their mates. Surely this must be an infringement as it gives a significant advantage to the beneficiary?

Yes it's rule 8.1, have a look at it in detail here

Edit to say, as with any rule the above rule should be used in conjuction with the defintions section of the rule book.
The defintion of advice is given as follows, "Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.

The defintion can be found here here

Glencarraig

Acting as a lookout or spotter is not considered giving advice, in fact it helps speed up the game. A player may stand at the top of a hill to give a line but must move away before the stroke is played.

Slicemeister

I've never come across competitors helping with putt lines in an open competition.
Have seen lads giving lines off the tee where it actually speeds up play as fellows wouldn't know them course layout. Same with the next teebox scenario.

What I have seen is lads asking "what's out back?" on approaches or par 3s. What's the ruling here?

FixdePitchmark

Lads - is this all a bit over the top for amateurs - the game is hard enough.

I know that statement may get me 6 years of hard labour in a gulag around here.

"I'm off 21"
But the club you gave me on 16 made all the difference.

Rikand

You can give a statement of Fact.
e.g.

The hole is 200 metres long.
There is a bunker over the green.



You cannot give an opinion.
e.g.

That putt breaks right to left.
You should hit a 5-iron here.




However, there is nothing to stop a player giving an opinion to himself while talking out loud, so in order to pull someone on it, you'd have to be very certain that his intention was to give an opinion to another

Rikand

Slicemeister wrote: »

I've never come across competitors helping with putt lines in an open competition.

You could have 3 people on a similar line putt. First guy goes first, misses and says " Jesus, I cant believe that broke left there. "

The other two guys learn from this and make their putts....

Now, did he give advice or was he just exclaiming out loud something that the other lads may have noticed anyways

doublecross

Found this useful

(Can't post link so here's copy and paste)
The following are ten examples of what is allowed within the Rules;
"What distance do you think it is from my ball to the flagstick?"
"Do you think that the 150-metre marker is accurate?"
"Now that we’ve both played our tee shots, tell me which club did you use?"
"What are the options if I declare my ball unplayable?"
"What is my line of play for this blind tee shot?"
"Is there a ditch between my ball and the hole?"
"Is that a sand bunker or a grassy hollow at the side of the putting green?"
"Could you please position yourself on top of that mound to show me my line of play to the green?" (But the marker must move before the player makes their stroke).
"When you lift your ball because it’s interfering with my next stroke you must not clean it."
“There are red stakes here, so you can drop your ball within two club-lengths of where it crossed the margin.”
None of the above incurs any penalty.

However, the following ten questions and statements, do incur a penalty of two strokes in stroke play, or loss of hole in match play, for the player asking for, or giving the advice:
"Do you think that an 8-iron will get me to the green?"
"Am I swinging too fast?"
"I think that this putt is dead straight, what do you think?"
"Should I try and play this ball out of the water hazard or take a penalty drop?"
“That was my 7-wood, what are you going to use?”
"Keep your head still as you putt."
"You haven’t really got a shot; if I were you I’d declare your ball unplayable."
"The wind is against us, you need at least one extra club."
"Don't use your driver here or you may end up in the water hazard."

Finally, there is one statement that many of us regularly use but probably shouldn't if the Rule on Advice is very strictly interpreted. When a fellow competitor's putt just lips out and he goes charging up to the hole to tap it in we should try and refrain from saying ……….… "Take your time"!

FixdePitchmark

It is all pedantics in a way.

Can a person look at club you are taking from a bag so ?

Wichita Lineman

Better than having to say 'you should have taken your time' afterwards IMHO.

Russman

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

It is all pedantics in a way.

Can a person look at club you are taking from a bag so ?

As far as I know, you can look but can't move anything like lift a towel or head cover to see what the club was.

Russman

doublecross wrote: »

Finally, there is one statement that many of us regularly use but probably shouldn't if the Rule on Advice is very strictly interpreted. When a fellow competitor's putt just lips out and he goes charging up to the hole to tap it in we should try and refrain from saying ……….… "Take your time"!

100% correct, but it would be a pretty mean spirited f--ker who really needs to get out more if he'd pull someone on that particular "offence".

scrubber72

One of my four ball once had a putt on the same line I had. He intentionally putt it 20 wide of the hole so I couldn't get a read. He was out of the hole anyway. Grrr

Dealerz

I wonder why R&A struggles to grow the game of golf....

millerj

Slicemeister wrote: »

I've never come across competitors helping with putt lines in an open competition.
Have seen lads giving lines off the tee where it actually speeds up play as fellows wouldn't know them course layout. Same with the next teebox scenario.

What I have seen is lads asking "what's out back?" on approaches or par 3s. What's the ruling here?

As you well know you would not and should not take any advice that I would give you when it comes to putting....!!!

billy3sheets

It is mainly the offering to act as lookout so the other player can take on a blind shot I have issue with. Particularly as there is a high probability of the ball being lost if it doesn't find the green or fairway.
If I have a spotter watching where it goes, I have a serious advantage.
I've often told guys both in my group and in other groups where I saw their ball land. However, to hold back your shot until a spotter gets into position is pre-meditated in my books and therefore an infringement.
Also, rather than speed play up, this only serves to slow it down.
Putting out of turn in order to give a line is in the same league.

Russman

billy3sheets wrote: »

It is mainly the offering to act as lookout so the other player can take on a blind shot I have issue with. Particularly as there is a high probability of the ball being lost if it doesn't find the green or fairway.
If I have a spotter watching where it goes, I have a serious advantage.
I've often told guys both in my group and in other groups where I saw their ball land. However, to hold back your shot until a spotter gets into position is pre-meditated in my books and therefore an infringement.
Also, rather than speed play up, this only serves to slow it down.
Putting out of turn in order to give a line is in the same league.

An infringement of what rule though ?
I don't think for a second that having someone see where your ball goes is any kind of advantage, unless you get into the realm of subconsciously being able to commit to the shot better because you know someone will find it or is looking for it. What about playing an interclub match where supporters are watching from around the corner of a dogleg or from a high vantage point where they can see everything ?

Would you not think that offering to walk to a spot where you can see your opponents ball is simply being helpful and might avoid them having to walk up, search and then walk back if the ball didn't make it out or whatever ?

Do you help your opponent look for his ball if he can't find it ? Much the same thing IMHO.

PARlance

What are people's view on leaving your ball on the green if it's past the hole and may assist your playing partner if they're chipping in.

Personally, I'll always leave it there if playing partners also do the same.
Some people seem to think they've to go up and mark their ball in this instance.

FixdePitchmark

PARlance wrote: »

What are people's view on leaving your ball on the green if it's past the hole and may assist your playing partner if they're chipping in.

Personally, I'll always leave it there if playing partners also do the same.
Some people seem to think they've to go up and mark their ball in this instance.

I don't like this .

I want to play golf , not snooker.

mafc

PARlance wrote: »

What are people's view on leaving your ball on the green if it's past the hole and may assist your playing partner if they're chipping in.

Personally, I'll always leave it there if playing partners also do the same.
Some people seem to think they've to go up and mark their ball in this instance.

Don't see a problem with this at all. Slows up play if every ball on the green is marked before chipping on.

billy3sheets

Russman wrote: »

An infringement of what rule though ?
I don't think for a second that having someone see where your ball goes is any kind of advantage, unless you get into the realm of subconsciously being able to commit to the shot better because you know someone will find it or is looking for it. What about playing an interclub match where supporters are watching from around the corner of a dogleg or from a high vantage point where they can see everything ?

Would you not think that offering to walk to a spot where you can see your opponents ball is simply being helpful and might avoid them having to walk up, search and then walk back if the ball didn't make it out or whatever ?

Do you help your opponent look for his ball if he can't find it ? Much the same thing IMHO.

No, quite different actually.
When a spotter is in position, the thought is "I can have a right go at this and sure my mate/supporter/designated-spotter will spot where my ball goes if it's off target.". This is very different to "This is a blind shot. If I take it on, there's a big risk I might not find my ball. I'll play it safe.".
As regards being helpful, I'm sure it would indeed be. But is it legal or proper?

PARlance

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I don't like this .

I want to play golf , not snooker.

It's as much a part of golf as anything else. It's just a rare instance when a rule doesn't bite you in the ass.

Post was slightly aimed at you
You even do it in a bloody team event!!!!

Rikand

Always leave it. I dont mind if somebody else doesnt, but I'll always leave it

FixdePitchmark

I know. Not as........

Yes. Don't like it.

Love the way golf is you , ball , bumps and roll till the hole.

Russman

billy3sheets wrote: »

No, quite different actually.
When a spotter is in position, the thought is "I can have a right go at this and sure my mate/supporter/designated-spotter will spot where my ball goes if it's off target.". This is very different to "This is a blind shot. If I take it on, there's a big risk I might not find my ball. I'll play it safe.".
As regards being helpful, I'm sure it would indeed be. But is it legal or proper?

I honestly don't think that would be the thought process for anyone taking on a blind shot, or maybe I should say, that wouldn't be my thought process. I know it's hypothetical but, if a shot is blind how do you know what's safe and what's not ? Ok, it could be a distance thing where you might hit a driver or a 5 iron, but I think it's very grey to suggest a spotter gives any sort of tangible advantage.
Either way, it's getting into someone's mental state and approach, and with everyone being different, I'm not sure how the rules could deal with it. Ultimately someone's confidence over a shot can't really be legislated for IMO.
I've played in opens where the host club will have a team of spotters dotted at random points on the course to help speed up play, all it is is an extra pair of eyes looking for a ball.

Russman

PARlance wrote: »

What are people's view on leaving your ball on the green if it's past the hole and may assist your playing partner if they're chipping in.

Personally, I'll always leave it there if playing partners also do the same.
Some people seem to think they've to go up and mark their ball in this instance.

Unless it's a match I'd always leave it, provided nothing is said that could be construed as breaking the rules, along the lines of "....sure leave it there, it might help me...."

Montgolfier

The biggest problem in golf competitions is that the don't do open draws for competitions. So you have cosy little 3/4 balls who play by their own rules. R and A still operate under the pretence it's a game of honor. It would be if people bothered to learn and understand the rules.
The problem with giving advice is it's not just helping out your 21hcp mate, it's giving your mate an advantage over the rest of the field including other higher hcps.
It's like giving someone a piggy back in a marathon.

Russman

Montgolfier wrote: »

The biggest problem in golf competitions is that the don't do open draws for competitions. So you have cosy little 3/4 balls who play by their own rules. R and A still operate under the pretence it's a game of honor. It would be if people bothered to learn and understand the rules.
The problem with giving advice is it's not just helping out your 21hcp mate, it's giving your mate an advantage over the rest of the field including other higher hcps.
It's like giving someone a piggy back in a marathon.

I'd say the vast majority of golfers are well aware that you can't give advice. Other than in a casual game I don't think I've ever heard it given to be honest. From what I've seen its misunderstanding as to what constitutes "advice" is a bigger problem.
I saw a dispute in a Metro match a couple of years ago where a guy claimed a hole from his opponent because someone made a comment about the pin position on a green. The opponent was a 13/14 year old kid who didn't know any better and just accepted the guy claiming the hole (he had claimed an earlier hole for something equally spurious as well). Match was all square on the 16th hole, kid was in the middle of the fairway from the tee, looking in on the green, opponent was in a ditch 50yds back having played at least one shot more. While he was standing waiting for yer man to play the young lad said to a spectator that the pin was way up the back of the green and the spectator replied that the pins were up the back of all the greens on that day. The opponent simply picked up his ball and said he was claiming the hole and walked to the next tee !
As it happens it was the deciding match and the kid lost the 17th to lose the match. He got a half baked apology from the opposing club a few weeks later, but what good was that to him.

PARlance

Letting a 13/14 year old out to play a club match on his own!!!

Russman

PARlance wrote: »

Letting a 13/14 year old out to play a club match on his own!!!

Oh I couldn't agree more with you, he should have had a caddie, especially considering the opposition.
But at the same time it should be fairly reasonable to assume the opponents will play by the rules of golf.

ForeRight

Russman wrote: »

Oh I couldn't agree more with you, he should have had a caddie, especially considering the opposition.
But at the same time it should be fairly reasonable to assume the opponents will play by the rules of golf.

Oh what a big and very very proud moment it must have been for the winner.
The amount of sad acts like that far outweigh the amount of guys getting advice and it's them that destroy the game in the long run.

There's a 13/14yr old obviously a good prospect representing a club who is likely to end up disillusioned with club golf.

jamesbondings

jaysus lads, i used to play as a kid with my dad (he was off 1 or 2) and i always thought he was a wanker to play in comps with.

Mainly because when i asked his advice, or what club he thought i should hit he wouldnt help. Now i know he was only playing by the rules hahaha jaysus i owe him an apology

PARlance

Russman wrote: »

Oh I couldn't agree more with you, he should have had a caddie, especially considering the opposition.
But at the same time it should be fairly reasonable to assume the opponents will play by the rules of golf.

Completely agree that the other man was at fault but the kid's club acted poorly.

A young lad shouldn't be left accompanied like that in the first instance when representing a club. They opened the door for the a*******

FixdePitchmark

Russman wrote: »

Unless it's a match I'd always leave it, provided nothing is said that could be construed as breaking the rules, along the lines of "....sure leave it there, it might help me...."

Well I've heard that said a good bit.

Russman

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Well I've heard that said a good bit.

I'd always go and mark it in that case tbh. To me, that's a big line to cross, agreeing to break the rules, albeit inadvertently or unintentionally. But I'd explain to the guy why I'm doing it so he doesn't think I'm just being a d1ck for the sake of it.

PARlance

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Well I've heard that said a good bit.

There's no problem saying it after someone has marked their ball. You can inform someone of the rules for future reference.

FixdePitchmark

PARlance wrote: »

There's no problem saying it after someone has marked their ball. You can inform someone of the rules for future reference.

Well I'm never doing it after this thread
It is golf - it is singles - I want to win , get your own bounce.

Russman

PARlance wrote: »

There's no problem saying it after someone has marked their ball. You can inform someone of the rules for future reference.

Absolutely, and it goes both ways too, if someone said "I'll leave that there for you......" I'd ask them to mark otherwise I'm potentially agreeing to break the rules by saying nothing.

PARlance

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Well I'm never doing it after this thread
It is golf - it is singles - I want to win , get your own bounce.

Well you're not obliged to leave it so fair enough.
But you're also not obliged to help look for your playing partners ball...

By doing both you are well within the rules, both may lead to a better score for someone and both speed up play.
I would be off the opinion that marking your ball is equivalent to not helping a search and is not within the spirit of the game.

FixdePitchmark

PARlance wrote: »

Well you're not obliged to leave it so fair enough.
But you're also not obliged to help look for your playing partners ball...

By doing both you are well within the rules, both may lead to a better score for someone and both speed up play.
I would be off the opinion that marking your ball is equivalent to not helping a search and is not within the spirit of the game.

Go away from me - I think I have found enough balls to fill the lake at 9 in Corb. I've done my Karma.

PARlance

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Go away from me - I think I have found enough balls to fill the lake at 9 in Corb. I've done my Karma.

You're half sound.

FixdePitchmark

Russman wrote: »

Absolutely, and it goes both ways too, if someone said "I'll leave that there for you......" I'd ask them to mark otherwise I'm potentially agreeing to break the rules by saying nothing.

Russman - thanks for highlighting so many breaches of the rules, my playing partners were not aware of.

FixdePitchmark

PARlance wrote: »

You're half sound.

95 % were not mine.

Norfolk Enchants_

Rikand wrote: »

You can give a statement of Fact.
e.g.

The hole is 200 metres long.
There is a bunker over the green.



You cannot give an opinion.
e.g.

That putt breaks right to left.
You should hit a 5-iron here.




However, there is nothing to stop a player giving an opinion to himself while talking out loud, so in order to pull someone on it, you'd have to be very certain that his intention was to give an opinion to another

Besides been the lazy mans option because all you have to do is look in the guys bag and see which club is missing, this really is a lack of understanding of how competitive golf actually works, in a singles competition all the players in your group are competing against you the same as the rest of the field, and to protect the field and yourself you must treat them the same as you would some other random golfer in another group.
Also this notion that it's someone elses job to "pull you up on it" as you say, is nonsense, it's the individuals own responsibility to conduct himself in an honest and respectful manner, i.e. you are your own referee.
Note that is distinctly different to other sports where there is a referee present at all times and there is a prevailing attitude of "if I'm not caught, then it's ok", in golf you are your own referee.

Rikand wrote: »

You could have 3 people on a similar line putt. First guy goes first, misses and says " Jesus, I cant believe that broke left there. "

The other two guys learn from this and make their putts....

Now, did he give advice or was he just exclaiming out loud something that the other lads may have noticed anyways

Well the answer to that question is it's alot more straight forward than you may think. The answer is only the player himself knows the answer, if he made the statement with the intention of assisting the others then he should penalise himself 2 shots and if he just prone to tourette like outbursts, then you should just kick him in the nuts next time he does it:pac:.

Dublin Spur

What about these ones:

2 players in a competition standing on the tee-box of a par 3:

Scenario 1. Player A hits first and tells player B what club he used
Scenario 2. Player A hits first and Player B asks player A what club he hit
Scenario 3. Player B looks in player A's bag to check what club Player A has selected for the shot

I think all are in breech of the rules but I am not 100% sure on all 3 scenarios

mike12

Option 3 is fine, remember last year Bubba almost broke his neck to see what club tiger hit on a par 3.
Standing on the Tee would you have to hide the number of the Iron you were carrying from your bag.

alxmorgan

Question - is it against the rules to discuss what irons you hit after leaving the tee box on a par 3 ?

Axel Lamp

alxmorgan wrote: »

Question - is it against the rules to discuss what irons you hit after leaving the tee box on a par 3 ?

No that's perfectly fine

Senecio

I played a match a few years ago where my opponent intentionally swapped all of his iron covers around so I couldn't tell what iron he was hitting off the tee on par 3's. A bit stupid really as I had a laser range finder and couldn't give a toss what club he was hitting. That and I had a laugh to myself when he pulled a "4" iron on the 110 yard par 3 6th hole.

Back to the original topic, I'm sure there are many unintentional infringements in a regular weekend 4-ball. I'm no rules nazi but every club should provide a refresher of the more frequently broken rules each year.

padzer

So would giving yardage from a range finder to a playing partner in a competition be a rules infringement?

Its just I am the only one of our weekly friendly 4ball with a gps watch, I dont mind the odd one here or there, but its gotten to the point where people are expecting me to give them a yardage on every shot.

Fair enough, its not in competition for now, but when it is, is it illegal?