Secondary school teaching without qualifications in Education

mumzboyz

Hi all

Just wondering if anybody can help me with this please.

I'm wondering if secondary schools allow non-teachers (for want of a better word) to come in and teach the students on a part time basis - say for 6 weeks at a time - or do you need to have a qualification in education? I have a masters degree if that makes a difference.

Thanks to advise

S

TheDriver

Not a hope unless you have a subject that is impossible to get. There is strict guidelines from Dept that money cannot be paid to teachers who are not registered with the TC (which you can't be unless you are qualified). Masters means nothing

Daisy 55

Masters and degree in what subject?

mumzboyz

Thanks for that, TheDriver.

I should have been much clearer but I'm not looking for the Dept. to pay me. Payment would come directly from the student families themselves. Plus this is for something that is not taught presently in the schools, I've checked out the curriculum.

mumzboyz

MSc in Software Engineering, Daisy.

TheDriver

sounds more like a guest tutor for TY type of thing.....

mumzboyz

I was aiming more for both TY and 5th year students.

mirrorwall14

mumzboyz wrote: »

I was aiming more for both TY and 5th year students.

If it's not a state exam subject and you are not qualified it's highly unlikely you'll get near the 5th years. TYs possibly but a lot of schools use qualified teachers for such courses where they have the interest/qualification e.g. I'll be teaching a module on musical theatre which is really the school show and I'm a qualified music teacher. Similarly you might have a maths teacher whose degree is in computer science teaching coding to TYs etc.

Could be worth an ask but I wouldnt go designing lesson plans etc before checking for demand

solerina

I would say the answer is yes, we currently have people coming in at regular intervals to take TYs and 5th yrs (not as often) for alternative subjects like you have mentioned....Computer programming, Nutrition, Judo, Chinese have all been offered this year so far in 6 week blocks for 90 mins a week.
They are paid out of TY fund or by interested students themselves.
You would need a current Garda Vetting certificate so apply for one if you havn't already.

ustazjoseph

I know of schools who effectively support a "tutor " to run a business within the school. Ie he runs one to one and small group classes in the school sometimes during breaks or after school . sometimes students leave to attend his sessions. They pay privately . old fashioned set up !

mumzboyz

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I was speaking with the principal of our local secondary school today and she mentioned that I could do this after hours so hopefully there will be a good take up from the students.

Thanks again

S

whats_my_name

Personally if my son's school was to offer a course like this I would not hesitate in paying for it myself. If I were you I would go around as many schools to see if there was any interest in it & take it from there. Also it could be an idea to look about starting summer camps etc. Sporty children are always accommodated for in that regard, this could offer an alternative. You could advertise in universities for volunteers to help you out for the experience. Best of luck!

mumzboyz

Thanks whats_my_name. That is my plan and I plan to get into the primary schools as well. It's an area that I feel very strongly that kids should be exposed more to from a young age.

whats_my_name

I think it's an area that is going to be huge, you just have to look at how big minecraft is getting & the likes of CoderDojo to see that kids are going mad for it! I'm in my final year of college & share some classes with computer science students so if you need me to ask about for tutors who may be interested if you plan on doing summer camps this year PM me & I can get in contact with the rep to pass word around!

mumzboyz

Thanks but I have contacts within my local IoT, finished my degree there 2 years ago. Best of luck with your studies

katydid

TheDriver wrote: »

Not a hope unless you have a subject that is impossible to get. There is strict guidelines from Dept that money cannot be paid to teachers who are not registered with the TC (which you can't be unless you are qualified). Masters means nothing

If the proposals for JC go ahead, there will be short courses like Japanese, Pet Care and stuff, and no doubt they'll have to look outside the pool of qualified teachers to find people to teach them.

With all due respect to the OP, a dangerous road.

katydid

mumzboyz wrote: »

Thanks for that, TheDriver.

I should have been much clearer but I'm not looking for the Dept. to pay me. Payment would come directly from the student families themselves. Plus this is for something that is not taught presently in the schools, I've checked out the curriculum.

If you were being paid privately, it would probably have to be done outside school hours. Then it would be between you and the parents; the school would just be facilitating you with premises.

katydid

mumzboyz wrote: »

Thanks whats_my_name. That is my plan and I plan to get into the primary schools as well. It's an area that I feel very strongly that kids should be exposed more to from a young age.

Someone said earlier, and it's an important point - you will need to be Garda Vetted. The crazy thing is that you can't be Garda vetted in general, you have to have a separate vetting for each place you work. It can take weeks, if not months, so you'd need to plan well in advance where you could run these classes and apply in plenty time.

mumzboyz

"With all due respect to the OP, a dangerous road."

I am curious as to why this is a dangerous road, Katydid?

I am aware that I need to be vetted for each school which I teach in, so that's not an issue.

Thanks

katydid

mumzboyz wrote: »

"With all due respect to the OP, a dangerous road."

I am curious as to why this is a dangerous road, Katydid?

I am aware that I need to be vetted for each school which I teach in, so that's not an issue.

Thanks

I just mean it's a dangerous road to start letting people in to teach in our schools who are not qualified. It undermines the professionalism of the qualified teaching staff, and not good for the students in the long run.

I understand that there are times where it simply isn't possible to find a qualified teacher for a short course, but it is has to be an exception.

Nothing personal :rolleyes:

Moody_mona

katydid wrote: »

Someone said earlier, and it's an important point - you will need to be Garda Vetted. The crazy thing is that you can't be Garda vetted in general, you have to have a separate vetting for each place you work.

I don't think the above is true. You apply for garda vetting via the Teaching Council. If you subbed in five schools, five days of the week, the same garda vetting stands.

katydid

Moody_mona wrote: »

I don't think the above is true. You apply for garda vetting via the Teaching Council. If you subbed in five schools, five days of the week, the same garda vetting stands.

You may be right. All I know is that I have to have separate Garda vetting as a teacher, as a youth club leader and as a church volunteer.

Is there a different requirement for schools?

km79

katydid wrote: »

I just mean it's a dangerous road to start letting people in to teach in our schools who are not qualified. It undermines the professionalism of the qualified teaching staff, and not good for the students in the long run.

I understand that there are times where it simply isn't possible to find a qualified teacher for a short course, but it is has to be an exception.

Nothing personal :rolleyes:

agree 1000% Katy
honestly is there any other profession looked on as ours is........would people expect to be let have a go at being a doctor for 6 weeks without qualifications?
Even of its "just " for a 6 week TY course ......that's a lot of teaching hours some poor NQT would be happy with !
The worst thing about this is the OP is clearly very genuine but it reflects the view of a lot of people that anyone can do our soft job. sure why bother getting the qualifications at all didn't we all go to school at some stage ........not meant as an attack on the OP in any way but it really annoys me

mumzboyz

katydid wrote: »

I just mean it's a dangerous road to start letting people in to teach in our schools who are not qualified. It undermines the professionalism of the qualified teaching staff, and not good for the students in the long run.

I understand that there are times where it simply isn't possible to find a qualified teacher for a short course, but it is has to be an exception.

Nothing personal :rolleyes:

Programming is an area which is not sufficiently taught in most schools. I'm qualified in this field and have a first class honours masters degree in software engineering. I may not have a teaching degree but I am qualified in my field. Most teaching staff have not been trained in this area.

I'm not having a dig at you, teachers or anybody else but I'm very passionate about the fact that kids and teenagers need to have exposure to proper coding / programming. When I was in first year for my undergraduate, it was unreal the amount of students who dropped out during / after first year because they were out of their depth when it came to programming and that was only doing very basic structures. If nothing else, it improves a childs' logic!

Stheno

katydid wrote: »

I just mean it's a dangerous road to start letting people in to teach in our schools who are not qualified. It undermines the professionalism of the qualified teaching staff, and not good for the students in the long run.

I understand that there are times where it simply isn't possible to find a qualified teacher for a short course, but it is has to be an exception.

Nothing personal :rolleyes:

What about trainers who have years of industry experience and qualifications, qualifications as trainers in teaching adults etc?

I work as one and have students (adults) coming through modular credit based systems to gain qualifications, and wonder at the skills difference that you perceive might be there? The courses I teach have strict syllabi, trainers are assessed yearly, and are immediately suspended if found wanting

poster2525

I don't see how this would be viable within school hours if you're not using qualified teachers, particularly at post primary level - there are many teachers who have ICT qualifications and/or backgrounds who would happily teach short programmes. Also, the education centres are providing courses to teachers at the moment. You may be underestimating the skills of teachers in situ, or newly qualified teachers who are available!

Consider the number of students who have passed through online teacher training in the last few years - I know we're talking more basic skills, but from what I've seen there's great enthusiasm to incorporate ICT into teaching and learning - many just haven't been given the opportunity yet!!

katydid

mumzboyz wrote: »

Programming is an area which is not sufficiently taught in most schools. I'm qualified in this field and have a first class honours masters degree in software engineering. I may not have a teaching degree but I am qualified in my field. Most teaching staff have not been trained in this area.

I'm not having a dig at you, teachers or anybody else but I'm very passionate about the fact that kids and teenagers need to have exposure to proper coding / programming. When I was in first year for my undergraduate, it was unreal the amount of students who dropped out during / after first year because they were out of their depth when it came to programming and that was only doing very basic structures. If nothing else, it improves a childs' logic!

No, I understand what you're saying, and it would be great if it were introduced into the mainstream curriculum.

All I'm saying is that teachers must be careful about having too many unqualified people coming in teach in schools, because it undermines their qualifications and professionalism. Teachers have to train to be teachers for a reason... :pac:

bpmurray

I wonder at any parents who pay for this when CoderDojo is free - find one near you here. The mentors are mostly folk with good experience in the industry, although without teaching qualifications.

km79

mumzboyz wrote: »

Programming is an area which is not sufficiently taught in most schools. I'm qualified in this field and have a first class honours masters degree in software engineering. I may not have a teaching degree but I am qualified in my field. Most teaching staff have not been trained in this area.

I'm not having a dig at you, teachers or anybody else but I'm very passionate about the fact that kids and teenagers need to have exposure to proper coding / programming. When I was in first year for my undergraduate, it was unreal the amount of students who dropped out during / after first year because they were out of their depth when it came to programming and that was only doing very basic structures. If nothing else, it improves a childs' logic!

but you have not been trained in teaching methodologies.......programming is likely to be a short course on the new JC. So if you are passionate enough about and willing to slog away on very low hours for low pay for a few years then apply to do the H Dip......the NQTs may not be as qualified in programming as you but they are not looking to be computer programmers. They are looking to be teachers. So they have teaching qualifications. Seriously if you are genuinely that passionate about it there will be an opportunity when the new JC is introduced but you must get qualified.Maybe you will find that trying to teach 30 TYs in a poorly equipped school is not for you after all......just because you are interested init does not mean they will be and you will need the methodologies and training to help you.....we did not do the HDip for the mountain of craic it was (not)

mumzboyz

katydid wrote: »

No, I understand what you're saying, and it would be great if it were introduced into the mainstream curriculum.

All I'm saying is that teachers must be careful about having too many unqualified people coming in teach in schools, because it undermines their qualifications and professionalism. Teachers have to train to be teachers for a reason... :pac:

I understand where you are coming from but I have been speaking with a number of schools today who are very interested in this and have been looking to introduce something like this for a while. Many schools teach Scratch, which is great but it's not programming by any means. There is so much more which children can be introduced to.

gaeilgebeo

poster2525 wrote: »

there are many teachers who have ICT qualifications and/or backgrounds who would happily teach short programmes. Also, the education centres are providing courses to teachers at the moment. You may be underestimating the skills of teachers in situ, or newly qualified teachers who are available!!!

I would tend to agree with this.
OP, I can't see there being a huge demand for such a course.
TY budgets have been cut and if coordinators are deciding between courses/speakers/modules, I can't see them paying for something like this when there are teachers with ICT qualifications on the staff.
Most TYs also have ICT classes on their timetable.

katydid

mumzboyz wrote: »

I understand where you are coming from but I have been speaking with a number of schools today who are very interested in this and have been looking to introduce something like this for a while. Many schools teach Scratch, which is great but it's not programming by any means. There is so much more which children can be introduced to.

True. But on the long term, if you want to teach, you need to learn to teach...

mumzboyz

Maybe I should be looking into teaching the teachers programming!

mumzboyz

Yes there is Coder Dojo, which I have previously taught in my local IoT and have lead a class. This is run by industry and lecturing staff but it's the students who teach the classes!

bpmurray

mumzboyz wrote: »

Many schools teach Scratch, which is great but it's not programming by any means. There is so much more which children can be introduced to.

I would very strongly argue that Scratch is programming: it has all the attributes of a programming language, and all the constructs found in pretty much all programming languages (conditionals, loops, variables, etc.). Of course there's much more, but don't underestimate Scratch.

Stheno

Stheno wrote: »

What about trainers who have years of industry experience and qualifications, qualifications as trainers in teaching adults etc?

I work as one and have students (adults) coming through modular credit based systems to gain qualifications, and wonder at the skills difference that you perceive might be there? The courses I teach have strict syllabi, trainers are assessed yearly, and are immediately suspended if found wanting

Any thoughts on this?

mumzboyz

Yes it does have all that, I totally agree and it's fine to use in first year and maybe second year but there is so much more to programming.

mumzboyz

I have industry experience behind me and have taught both kids and adults some years ago on a part time basis

bpmurray

mumzboyz wrote: »

Yes there is Coder Dojo, which I have previously taught in my local IoT and have lead a class. This is run by industry and lecturing staff but it's the students who teach the classes!

That doesn't sound like CoderDojo to me: typically there are no classes, and it's run by enthusiasts. Industry sometimes sponsors by providing facilities and/or pizza and, even in one IT I mentor in occasionally, there are only a few lecturers who participate as mentors (NOT teachers). The kids are encouraged to mentor those less experienced than they are.

To fully understand how it works (should work?), check out Sugata Mitra's TED Talk of the Year.

mumzboyz

That was my experience of Coder Dojo a few years back.

seavill

These types of short courses are an option to tys in a lot of schools.

However I'm not sure what people's view on the new jc is. Yes there will be several new short courses run for new jc in schools however it will be the current teachers running them regardless of qualifications. I mean look at the amount of people teaching subjects outside their qualifications currently to fill gaps. Qualifications matter little when it suits.
Schools won't be paying people to do it. They don't have the money. Plus if we bring in joe blogs to run a course for 6 weeks the class teacher does what then sit in the staff room. The dept will love that. Teachers timetables have to be filled first that is the reality.

katydid

seavill wrote: »

These types of short courses are an option to tys in a lot of schools.

However I'm not sure what people's view on the new jc is. Yes there will be several new short courses run for new jc in schools however it will be the current teachers running them regardless of qualifications. I mean look at the amount of people teaching subjects outside their qualifications currently to fill gaps. Qualifications matter little when it suits.
Schools won't be paying people to do it. They don't have the money. Plus if we bring in joe blogs to run a course for 6 weeks the class teacher does what then sit in the staff room. The dept will love that. Teachers timetables have to be filled first that is the reality.

Outsiders will have to be brought in for some things. How could anyone who has no Japanese teach Japanese, for heaven's sake? Depends what short courses they choose, I suppose.

spurious

katydid wrote: »

Outsiders will have to be brought in for some things. How could anyone who has no Japanese teach Japanese, for heaven's sake? Depends what short courses they choose, I suppose.

As in most schools, they will offer what they have the staff to offer.

gubbie

mumzboyz wrote: »

I'm not having a dig at you, teachers or anybody else but I'm very passionate about the fact that kids and teenagers need to have exposure to proper coding / programming... If nothing else, it improves a childs' logic!

Should you get this up and running, remember that you can not necessarily teach as you did in Coderdojo. Try structuring your class like a Maths lesson - get them up and doing things to understand the logic behind it. That is fundamentally the most important thing to it

You stated later on that Scratch wasn't a real computer language and that you want the kids to have experience to real languages. I would strongly urge you not to discount it. Hand on heart, (after teaching programming, with a programming Masters and a teaching degree), I do not think that kids will learn logic from jumping straight into Java/C/whichever. There's a reason why Coderdojo starts with Scratch! They can play with it, test parameters.

I've read good arguments that teaching kids the language of programming is pointless, that really they should focus on how to use programming as another form of learning how to problem solve

mumzboyz

Thanks for that Gubbie.

Classes will be structured and the students will be working from the start. It won't be a lecture, it's mainly going to be hands on work for the students - it's the only way to learn programming.

Just to clarify, I'm not knocking Scratch but from speaking with 2 Heads of Computing in 2 different colleges, the feedback was that the students were under the illusion that this is how programming is done and they both felt that the students would benefit from learning how to code using proper syntax.

gubbie

mumzboyz wrote: »

Classes will be structured and the students will be working from the start. It won't be a lecture, it's mainly going to be hands on work for the students - it's the only way to learn programming.

Just to clarify, I'm not knocking Scratch but from speaking with 2 Heads of Computing in 2 different colleges, the feedback was that the students were under the illusion that this is how programming is done and they both felt that the students would benefit from learning how to code using proper syntax.

Eh, I ever so slightly disagree with your format - I think there should be 4 parts to your general lesson - a brief activity summarising things they had done in previous lessons that they would need for this one, initialising variables, printing to the screen... a very brief intro (like a few minutes) followed by some sort of activity not at the computer to learn the logic behind why you would do something, followed by computer work.

For example, if you wanted to teach about loops I'd get them to play a short game, something like "While I hold up the number 4 you must put your name up in the air, otherwise you hide it". Then discuss the idea of repeating things until they are no longer true. Then group them and have them come up with their own ideas on a large piece of paper/whiteboard/whatever you have. You can go around then, glance at the pages and check that the right idea is going through their heads. If a group isn't getting it, have another group explain it to them in their own words, with an example. Once you're happy, move onto how you would write it in code. Using your game, up on the board, show them, stopping every once in a while to question students, "So we write, while bracket number equals, what was my number John? 4 yes, so while number equals four, close the bracket, what did we do Mary? Yes, we showed our names, so here's how the computer would show your name..." Then get them to write how they think they would write what they have written, in a program and then finally move onto the computer. Don't forget to differentiate so that the kids who get this easily will push through, and can jump ahead.

[Edit] This is how I would teach JC students, I'd alter it for teaching older

I don't think Heads in Colleges are an ideal source. They get this position because they are really clever in their field, but they're not necessarily good teachers. Their focus is not to be great teachers, but to be great at getting funding and research! So of course it's in their interest to have all the students know programming when they're coming in, just like in an ideal world I'd LOVE kids to come into secondary school knowing Algebra and how I'm sure primary school teachers would love to get kids all knowing how to multiply, having learnt it from their parents!

poster2525

I think this is like music lessons - I can see that some students (and their parents) would have the desire to develop these skills, but I really see it as an evening or weekend add-on programme. It could possibly work for a 3-6 week TY group...but I don't know?? You'd have a very diverse crowd in the room, who mightn't be very motivated.

I assume gubbie is a permanent teacher who has brought the students up through the ranks, so it probably works well in this situation, and can be integrated into his/her timetable.

byhookorbycrook

At primary level , it is VERY much discouraged that outside teachers who must be paid are used during the school day. I'd imagine the same would occur in secondary, especially when that person is not a qualified teacher.

katydid

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

At primary level , it is VERY much discouraged that outside teachers who must be paid are used during the school day. I'd imagine the same would occur in secondary, especially when that person is not a qualified teacher.

The Dept's push to these "short courses" in JC and beyond is going to undermine the education system and teaching profession in the long run.

gaeilgebeo

katydid wrote: »

The Dept's push to these "short courses" in JC and beyond is going to undermine the education system and teaching profession in the long run.

As stated before, the short courses will not require that teachers be brought in to teach specialised courses.
Schools will work within their current staff constraints.
Short courses do not need to be anything outside of subjects already being taught in the school.
While I don't agree with the idea or concept of short-courses, there has been a lot of scare-mongering in relation to their implications.

katydid

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

As stated before, the short courses will not require that teachers be brought in to teach specialised courses.
School will work within their current staff constraints.
Short courses do not need to be anything outside of subjects already being taught in the school.
While I don't agree with the idea or concept of short-courses, there has been a lot of scare-mongering in relation to their implications.

That is probably what will happen, but in more well off areas, parents might well contribute to bringing in outsiders to do the more unusual options. Look at the situation here, where the parents are willing to pay for the course the OP is offering