27 Under 1:03 & 265 Sub-1:06 at National University Half Marathon Championships

PWEI

27 Under 1:03 and 265 :eek: Sub-1:06 at Japanese National University Half Marathon Championships;


http://japanrunningnews.blogspot.ie/2015/03/hakone-champion-agus-isshiki-takes.html

Itziger

Wow. Good depth of talent pool there eh! What would our results be?

Itziger

If anything it gets scarier. 600th place was 1.09.24

Imagine going home and saying you were 600th with that time!

Itziger

The more I think of this, the more I wonder if it's for real. 600 runners under 1.10 in a Universities race!!

Anyone?

tang1

Itziger wrote: »

The more I think of this, the more I wonder if it's for real. 600 runners under 1.10 in a Universities race!!

Anyone?

Something doesn't add up somewhere, freakishly fast times.

menoscemo

It happens regularly in Japan as far as I know, it has been mentioned several times on Marathon talk. Isn't it something about the students getting scholarships and/or credits or soemthing?

Remember that Japan has a huge population and running is very popular...

Itziger

menoscemo wrote: »

It happens regularly in Japan as far as I know, it has been mentioned several times on Marathon talk. Isn't it something about the students getting scholarships and/or credits or soemthing?

Remember that Japan has a huge population and running is very popular...

Sure, I mean it's a prime age for running and as you say they love their running, big population, but Jeez, those numbers are something else.

Netwerk_Errer

Itziger wrote: »

The more I think of this, the more I wonder if it's for real. 600 runners under 1.10 in a Universities race!!

Anyone?

It's not that suprising for the Japanese. Weldon Johnson did up an article a few years ago where they(Ivy league College team) were invited to a college Eikden. Wejo had run 28:05 for 10k at that time and he said one college team had 80 athletes out training at one time.

They ran 29 miles in one day race week with the team who were doing 14m recovery runs and 30k progression runs as college athletes. Training 3 times a day. He couldn't live with them and the sheer volume and pace of their workouts.

The Ivy league team got obliterated in the race.

BeepBeep!

Itziger wrote: »

The more I think of this, the more I wonder if it's for real. 600 runners under 1.10 in a Universities race!!

Anyone?

I'm with you on this one!! Surely they would be more prominent at World level going by these times.

Netwerk_Errer

BeepBeep! wrote: »

I'm with you on this one!! Surely they would be more prominent at World level going by these times.

Why is everything on this forum greeted with suspicion!?

Itziger

Netwerk_Errer wrote: »

Why is everything on this forum greeted with suspicion!?

Netwerk, I'm not exactly suspicious. I'm just genuinely having trouble getting my head around those numbers. Does it not seem like a massive number under 1.10? What would a UK or US equivalent be?

rom

Running is essential a national sport. If you a good you get a job and can train fulltime. When you retire you still have a job. The ekiden road relays in Jan are broadcast for something like 10 hours live on TV there. The only thing close to that would be comrades in SA as long broadcast for a running race on a major network. A stark contrast to say coverage of some us marathons where they show very little of the race with ads, commentary and interviews.

Netwerk_Errer

Got the article! Could someone fix the link please.

htt p://ww w.letsrun.co m/japan.shtm l

RayCun

http://www.letsrun.com/japan.shtml

tang1

Dont buy for one second that theres that many 'naturally' talented runners in Japan regardless of population size. If the training talked about in the the letsrun article worked so well in Japan how come the likes of countries such as America are not doing the same. Why do we not see all this so called endless supply of runners graduating onto the international marathon/athletics circuit?

I can only remember seeing one Japanese runner being in contention of anykind in one marathon last year that being New York.

Netwerk_Errer

tang1 wrote: »

Dont buy for one second that theres that many 'naturally' talented runners in Japan regardless of population size. If the training talked about in the the letsrun article worked so well in Japan how come the likes of countries such as America are not doing the same. Why do we not see all this so called endless supply of runners graduating onto the international marathon/athletics circuit?

I can only remember seeing one Japanese runner being in contention of anykind in one marathon last year that being New York.

ROM posted a video of some 5000m trials a few weeks ago where flotrack done the coverage. 500 or so runners ran sub 15, every heat in the meet is on video showing it did happen. 500 under 15 with the winner running 13:20 is more impressive than the results posted yesterday.

Itziger

tang1 wrote: »

Dont buy for one second that theres that many 'naturally' talented runners in Japan regardless of population size. If the training talked about in the the letsrun article worked so well in Japan how come the likes of countries such as America are not doing the same. Why do we not see all this so called endless supply of runners graduating onto the international marathon/athletics circuit?

I can only remember seeing one Japanese runner being in contention of anykind in one marathon last year that being New York.

That's one of the things I've been thinking about. Surely from that pool you'd expect a good few to be in elite marathon group.

BeepBeep!

Netwerk_Errer wrote: »

Why is everything on this forum greeted with suspicion!?

First time I think I've been suspicious of anything on this forum.

To give this a bit of context....at last years world half marathon championship, held in Denmark, Japan had 3 sub 63 senior athletes. Surely you can see why people are suspicious when 27 university athletes rock up and run this at a National University race? As someone said where are these Japanese athletes at World level races?

tang1

Netwerk_Errer wrote: »

ROM posted a video of some 5000m trials a few weeks ago where flotrack done the coverage. 500 or so runners ran sub 15, every heat in the meet is on video showing it did happen. 500 under 15 with the winner running 13:20 is more impressive than the results posted yesterday.

Not denying it didnt happen NE, i'm doubting it was by natural training and ability....... Let you make your mind up on what i mean, just not buying its all simply down to training & ability for that amount of college students to run those times.

Netwerk_Errer

tang1 wrote: »

Not denying it didnt happen NE, i'm doubting it was by natural training and ability....... Let you make your mind up on what i mean, just not buying its all simply down to training & ability for that amount of college students to run those times.

That's unanswerable tang:)

Just thinking about it. A sub-70 half is equivalent to around a 32 minute 10k I think. I don't think is out of the range of possibility for 600 American College students to run under that time and America doesn't have many world beaters in the senior ranks eitheir.

Meant unanswerable

tang1

Not one Irish runner ran sub 65 mins in last years National Half championships, Japan has 27 college students running sub 63. There is no comparison population wise, but a country such as ours surely should have one runner capable of running sub 63. But thats another argument completely i suppose. I remain hugely skeptical.

pconn062

tang1 wrote: »

Not one Irish runner ran sub 65 mins in last years National Half championships, Japan has 27 college students running sub 63. There is no comparison population wise, but a country such as ours surely should have one runner capable of running sub 63. But thats another argument completely i suppose. I remain hugely skeptical.

You have to remember that long distance running over their is like the GAA here, it is their national sport. Not meaning to sound flippant but sub 70 is not that fast (it's 12 minutes slower than the WR) so if you have a huge population with with loads of guys running having that many runners under 70 minutes is possible. The Japanese running culture as well is to train exceptionally hard with very high mileage. Compare that to Ireland where most of our juniors run 40 miles a week and the drop out rate at senior level is shockingly high.

ECOLII

This is not a new thing look at when Cragg debuted at the Half Marathon

http://www.letsrun.com/2012/japan13.1-0205.php

Marathon is ingrained in the culture of the country with the likes of Fukuoka Marathon having a strict 2.46 cut off time as well as the emphasis put on the Ekiden

The training is super high mileage (up on +200mpw) as a focus and primarily based around Lydiard following's generally.

You do see Japaneese in 10k and up regularly though they usually don't have a change of pace so don't race well tactically (how many times have you seen Japaneese women going out like trains in Olympic/WC 10,000m races only to get swallowed up later on by the field.

That sort of approach will always develop general standard while at the same time scupper true outlier potential

demfad

ECOLII wrote: »

That sort of approach will always develop general standard while at the same time scupper true outlier potential

I assume that comment is referring to 10ks and under?

In the marathon Japan is only bettered at the elite end by Kenya and Ethiopia.
For Olympic medals their standard might be even higher.
Japanese have run over a hundred marathons under the 2:10 mark which is a cut above general standard (US has 16 to date).
Yes, the Japanese mileage is high compared to the US/Europe but that's our problem obviously.

ECOLII

demfad wrote: »

I assume that comment is referring to 10ks and under?

In the marathon Japan is only bettered at the elite end by Kenya and Ethiopia.
For Olympic medals their standard might be even higher.
Japanese have run over a hundred marathons under the 2:10 mark which is a cut above general standard (US has 16 to date).
Yes, the Japanese mileage is high compared to the US/Europe but that's our problem obviously.

Not quite, I am not debating that the approach has created huge depth in talent up to a certain point but at the very top they don't have any world beaters, the national records are not hugely ahead of other Non African (Germany, Portugal, France, US)

(not saying the approach doesn't work and I will address the elephant in the room with regards Sammy Wanjiru being a product of the Japanese collegiate system)

Just feel that the approach provides a ceiling to development in alot of up and coming Japanese younger talent.

demfad

ECOLII wrote: »

Not quite, I am not debating that the approach has created huge depth in talent up to a certain point but at the very top they don't have any world beaters, the national records are not hugely ahead of other Non African (Germany, Portugal, France, US)

(not saying the approach doesn't work and I will address the elephant in the room with regards Sammy Wanjiru being a product of the Japanese collegiate system)

Just feel that the approach provides a ceiling to development in alot of up and coming Japanese younger talent.

I disagree. In sub-elite, elite, and super elite depth they are only behind Kenya and Ethiopia.
In Olympic marathon medals they are probably number 2 behind Kenya but may be number 1.

They don't hit a ceiling. Rather they build their aerobic house to maximum height. The only argument could be that they don't decorate it well enough in their specific stage. That said many seem to employ the long fast run which is key to East African specific marathon
training (Italian school).
Its not fair to compare Japanese best times to "world beater" times until the extent of r-epo use has been established/confirmed in East Africa. It could be that the true world best is closer to 2:06 than to 2:03.

The ceiling, I would argue, constrains other non-African nations who do not maximise aerobic development using high mileage over many years.

Netwerk_Errer

demfad wrote: »

I disagree. In sub-elite, elite, and super elite depth they are only behind Kenya and Ethiopia.
In Olympic marathon medals they are probably number 2 behind Kenya but may be number 1.

They don't hit a ceiling. Rather they build their aerobic house to maximum height. The only argument could be that they don't decorate it well enough in their specific stage. That said many seem to employ the long fast run which is key to East African specific marathon
training (Italian school).
Its not fair to compare Japanese best times to "world beater" times until the extent of r-epo use has been established/confirmed in East Africa. It could be that the true world best is closer to 2:06 than to 2:03.

The ceiling, I would argue, constrains other non-African nations who do not maximise aerobic development using high mileage over many years.

Japan have only won 3 medals in the Olympic marathon, Kenya only have 4. France have the same as Kenya, Germany have even more. America and the UK are miles ahead of everyone when it comes to Olympic marathon medals.

It's also not useful to pull out the epo card to backup an argument because it's only an opinion and not based in fact. We can only deal with known performances. You can't say that everyone who has run under 2.06 is a doper.

tang1

Netwerk_Errer wrote: »

The first paragraph is completely wrong.
Japan have only won 3 medals in the Olympic marathon, Kenya only have 4. France have the same as Kenya, Germany have even more. America and the UK are miles ahead of everyone when it comes to Olympic marathon medals.

It's also not useful to pull out the epo card to backup an argument because it's only an opinion and not based in fact. We can only deal with known performances. You can't say that everyone who has run under 2.06 is a doper.

Kenya have won 6 total medals in Olympic marathon since records began, Japan have won 5. Great Britain have same amount as Japan & USA have 7.

Netwerk_Errer

tang1 wrote: »

Kenya have won 6 total medals in Olympic marathon since records began, Japan have won 5. Great Britain have same amount as Japan & USA have 7.

Apoligies tang!

Don't know what happened there. USA actually have 10 and not 7 too. I think we have it right now.

tang1

Netwerk_Errer wrote: »

Apoligies tang!

Don't know what happened there. USA actually have 10 and not 7 too. I think we have it right now.

In fairness to ya its not like you to get a stat wrong man.

desertcircus

For comparison, it's worth looking at track cycling. Japan has a strong keirin scene and originated the discipline - there's an entire professional setup of keirin riders, who race regularly and competitively, with a huge gambling market on the results - but by and large, they don't do especially well at the Olympics for a country with such a large professional cohort (the last Japanese men's keirin medal at the world championships was 1993). The reason for this is partly that the keirin season is more or less year-long, with major races running from February to December, and the best riders aim to be in top condition year-round. The other factor is that races outside Japan simply don't figure especially highly in Japanese keirin racing - there's a race in December featuring the top nine riders for the year, and winning Olympic gold is enough to guarantee you the seventh of those nine slots (the top six are reserved for the winners of the six biggest domestic competitions). A Japanese keirin rider could win the world championship and still not get a slot in the end-of-year race: it has literally zero bearing on the awarding of those nine slots.

Given the description of the corporate ekiden teams described in the article linked earlier and the above details on keirin, it wouldn't hugely surprise me to learn that Japan had a huge and ferociously competitive domestic scene in distance running without it being reflected hugely at a world level. It wouldn't be the first case; in some cases, Japanese sports have more or less zero interest in the outside world.

BeepBeep!

desertcircus wrote: »

For comparison, it's worth looking at track cycling. Japan has a strong keirin scene and originated the discipline - there's an entire professional setup of keirin riders, who race regularly and competitively, with a huge gambling market on the results - but by and large, they don't do especially well at the Olympics for a country with such a large professional cohort (the last Japanese men's keirin medal at the world championships was 1993). The reason for this is partly that the keirin season is more or less year-long, with major races running from February to December, and the best riders aim to be in top condition year-round. The other factor is that races outside Japan simply don't figure especially highly in Japanese keirin racing - there's a race in December featuring the top nine riders for the year, and winning Olympic gold is enough to guarantee you the seventh of those nine slots (the top six are reserved for the winners of the six biggest domestic competitions). A Japanese keirin rider could win the world championship and still not get a slot in the end-of-year race: it has literally zero bearing on the awarding of those nine slots.

Given the description of the corporate ekiden teams described in the article linked earlier and the above details on keirin, it wouldn't hugely surprise me to learn that Japan had a huge and ferociously competitive domestic scene in distance running without it being reflected hugely at a world level. It wouldn't be the first case; in some cases, Japanese sports have more or less zero interest in the outside world.

Very interesting post desertcircus.

demfad

Netwerk_Errer wrote: »

. We can only deal with known performances.

The known performances from East Africa SNIP. Therefore using the argument that Japanese training is somehow inferior because they don't produce "world beaters" needs to be qualified.

You can't say that everyone who has run under 2.06 is a doper.

SNIP. You could therefore deduce 2:04:30 as my estimation for this time and not 2:06.

ECOLII

demfad wrote: »

The known performances from East Africa SNIP. Therefore using the argument that Japanese training is somehow inferior because they don't produce "world beaters" needs to be qualified.

It should also then be qualified that many US/ European athletes spend a good chunk of there training years in East Africa Altitude training.

I didn't say Japanese training was inferior, I well believe on an overall level it has ensured that a large chunk of there population overpeform.

Also I wouldn't call the attritional approach of East Africans to be optimal either but it is designed in a way that outliers tend to flourish under while many others fall away

macinalli

This was also included in this weeks Marathon Talk podcast. Some interesting discussion, the bit that stood out to me was that 25 guys went sub 63, but nobody was sub 62. This also translates to the full, where Japan have lots of guys running 2.08, but nobody breaking 2.06.

For the skeptical, apparently there's also a video of the finish line that shows a deluge of runners arriving from the 62 min mark!

pconn062

As per charter, no doping speculation.

demfad

ECOLII wrote: »

It should also then be qualified that many US/ European athletes spend a good chunk of there training years in East Africa Altitude training.

I didn't say Japanese training was inferior, I well believe on an overall level it has ensured that a large chunk of there population overpeform.

Also I wouldn't call the attritional approach of East Africans to be optimal either but it is designed in a way that outliers tend to flourish under while many others fall away

In 2014. 10 Japanese ran under 2:10.
Not counting East Africans or Qatari East Africans you have one each from Poland, Germany, Ukraine and Mexico (may have missed a country).

The Japanese outliers seem to be doing fine.

The culture around the sport in what is a first world country ensures that a high proportion of Japanese stay in the sport. Thus you get results as highlighted in the OP.
In East Africa its all about earning power. If you don't have earning power in Athletics you must find earning power somewhere else (farming) or you'll go hungry. You are elite or you are a farm worker.That is why so many East Africans fall off.

This has nothing to do with training. Japanese don't do a lot of hill sprints but do more supplementary jogging and hill springing.

If it was possible for the same proportion of East African athletes to stay in the sport then the numbers of them capable of running sub 63/66 would absolutely dwarf that of the Japanese with a similar proportion of outliers. That doesnt put food on the table unfortunately.