2009 team v 2015 team

mfceiling

Well?

Just from reading a few posts on here about the rugby we played under Deccie etc.

It's a hell of a game - I know we still have Bowe, Heaslip and POC playing, but for arguments sake it's game on.

Ferris v POM

ROG v Sexton

Flannery v Best


Kidney v Schmidt

Where are we after 80 minutes?

Hard to call for me. Fez on the rampage, Wallace smashing everything, BOD in his prime.

Sexton pulling the strings, POM like a demon on the deck, Schmidt's attention to detail.

It's going to be close.

deadybai

2009 team would lose because of the Schmidt game plan. The 2009 team probably had better individuals but the 2015 are so difficult to beat.
Put it this way if the two teams had Schmidt as their coach then the 2009 would win.

On a side note, I think 14/2015 O'Connell is a better player than himself in 09. Probably played his best rugby thoughtout the last two years. He has been fantastic.
Tomas O Leary was playing scrum half in 09. He played very similar to the way Murray is playing today.

Also
09 Bowe>15 Bowe
09 Heaslip> 15 Heaslip

ROG>Sexton

Stan27

I think 2015 just because of Schmidt. I say we would have beeten wales to get to the semi if we had Schmidt in charge. Would have adjusted!
Also thinking about 2009 Christ I miss ferris. Imaging if he was still playing.

Tox56

Put Murray and Sexton in the 2009 team and everyone wins

molloyjh

Tox56 wrote: »

Put Murray and Sexton in the 2009 team and everyone wins

And Schmidt...

deadybai

deadybai wrote: »

...
ROG>Sexton

Ah its been a while since we had a good old fashioned ROG vs Sexton debate

Neil3030

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah its been a while since we had a good old fashioned ROG vs Sexton debate

.ak

2009 team until the 2015 team actually win something.

errlloyd

I would have to rewatch 2009, but the question is did we dominate, or did we just cling on in there and eek it out. I think the latter.

I thought 2014 was more impressive than 2009.

LeinsterDub

.ak wrote: »

2009 team until the 2015 team actually win something.

They won the championship (technically that was the 2014 team but it's a much of a muchness)

.ak

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They won the championship (technically that was the 2014 team but it's a much of a muchness)

missing bod, darce, trims, Henry, etc. I would like to wait until this team wins something before we go bragging about it

Tox56

.ak wrote: »

missing bod, darce, trims, Henry, etc. I would like to wait until this team wins something before we go bragging about it

I think the point of this was more the squad we have under Schmidt (i.e 2014 + 2015) versus the one we had in 2009. Although there have been a fair few changes to the starting 15 from Paris last year, BOD is the only one who isn't there at all anymore

Fireball07

errlloyd wrote: »

I would have to rewatch 2009, but the question is did we dominate, or did we just cling on in there and eek it out. I think the latter.

I thought 2014 was more impressive than 2009.

Not a chance. We didn't lose in 2009... I think we were comfortably the best team in pretty much every game.

its_phil

Fireball07 wrote: »

Not a chance. We didn't lose in 2009... I think we were comfortably the best team in pretty much every game.

Really don't think we were in that game against Australia. Very lucky to get a draw and comfortable is a slight overstatement considering the Wales and SA games

Neil3030

For the larf, I compared the team from Week 3 in '09 with the team from Week 3 in '15.

2009 2015
Rob Kearney = Rob Kearney
Tommy Bowe = Tommy Bowe
Brian O'Driscoll (capt) > Jared Payne
Paddy Wallace < Robbie Henshaw
Luke Fitzgerald < Simon Zebo
Ronan O'Gara < Jonathan Sexton
Tomas O'Leary < Conor Murray
Marcus Horan = Jack McGrath
Jerry Flannery < Rory Best
John Hayes > Mike Ross
Donncha O'Callaghan = Devin Toner
Paul O'Connell = Paul O'Connell (capt)
Stephen Ferris > Peter O'Mahony
David Wallace < Sean O'Brien
Jamie Heaslip > Jordi Murphy
Replacements:
Rory Best > Sean Cronin
Tom Court < Cian Healy
Tom Court < Marty Moore
Mick O'Driscoll < Iain Henderson
Denis Leamy > Tommy O'Donnell
Peter Stringer > Eoin Reddan
Gordon D'Arcy > Ian Madigan
Geordan Murphy > Felix Jones


Recall that only 7 subs were allowed in '09, so I've compared both of our prop replacements from '15 to our ambipropsterous cover in Court from '09. Probably not fair but it is what it is.

Surprisingly, I score it a dead heat; 9 edges per team, with 5 that I can't call. On that basis I'll give it to the '15 team, on the basis of it having a superior captain.

Bridge93

Neil3030 wrote: »

For the larf, I compared the team from Week 3 in '09 with the team from Week 3 in '15.

2009 2015
Rob Kearney = Rob Kearney
Tommy Bowe = Tommy Bowe
Brian O'Driscoll (capt) > Jared Payne
Paddy Wallace < Robbie Henshaw
Luke Fitzgerald < Simon Zebo
Ronan O'Gara < Jonathan Sexton
Tomas O'Leary < Conor Murray
Marcus Horan = Jack McGrath
Jerry Flannery < Rory Best
John Hayes > Mike Ross
Donncha O'Callaghan = Devin Toner
Paul O'Connell = Paul O'Connell (capt)
Stephen Ferris > Peter O'Mahony
David Wallace < Sean O'Brien
Jamie Heaslip > Jordi Murphy
Replacements:
Rory Best > Sean Cronin
Tom Court < Cian Healy
Tom Court < Marty Moore
Mick O'Driscoll < Iain Henderson
Denis Leamy > Tommy O'Donnell
Peter Stringer > Eoin Reddan
Gordon D'Arcy > Ian Madigan
Geordan Murphy > Felix Jones


Recall that only 7 subs were allowed in '09, so I've compared both of our prop replacements from '15 to our ambipropsterous cover in Court from '09. Probably not fair but it is what it is.

Surprisingly, I score it a dead heat; 9 edges per team, with 5 that I can't call. On that basis I'll give it to the '15 team, on the basis of it having a superior captain.

Interesting to see it laid out like that. Only two I wouldn't agree with would be Best over Flannery who I just rated very highly personally, would've had a great chance at a lions test shirt but for injury. Wouldn't have Zebo over Fitzgerald either who was a Lions test wing that season.

molloyjh

I don't think its at all fair to say we dominated every game in 2009. Drico had to drag us over the line against England in what was a pretty tight and dour affair. The France game see-sawed a bit over the course of the 80. We drew against Australia needing a late try from Drico to do so. Even the Scotland game wasn't cut and dry from what I remember of it. That break by Stringer for Heaslips try being the real difference on the day no?

EDIT: And let's not forget we needed a big rally at the start of the second half against Wales as we were comfortably the second best side in the first half.

There was real steal about that 2009 side but it was their first season under Kidney so that helped. It's far more comparable to look at our 2014 squad for comparison. If I had to out and out rate one ahead of the other it would be 2015 purely based on the fact that the steal we're showing now seems to be a lot less of a fleeting thing that 2009. But then that's based in hindsight when it comes to 2009 so.....

clsmooth

Jack McGrath is a better player than Horan was, as is Ross over Hayes. Toner over O'Callaghan too IMO.

Buer

deadybai wrote: »

On a side note, I think 14/2015 O'Connell is a better player than himself in 09. Probably played his best rugby thoughtout the last two years. He has been fantastic.

That's not even close. POC and Matfield were the best second rows in the world in 2009. He's not in the top 5 at this stage. POC from 2004-2009 was a sensational player. He's not in that bracket at this point.

There are different weaknesses and strengths and the game has changed significantly too. 2015 would hammer 2009 in the scrums but 2009 would win the line out battle. The 2009 back row would win, definitely.

2015 halfbacks would be well out in front to my mind but those outside them would have been more capable in 2009.

Would be a very interesting match up, overall.

clsmooth

I'd have to agree with POC playing some of their best rugby of his career at the moment. He was excellent for the Lions in 13 and been in excellent form since then, his work rate over the past few years seems to have increased hugely. He seems everywhere these days. Proving that the mythical 'unseen work' can actually be seen.. Also gone are his poor carries and regular handling errors from a few years ago.

Podge_irl

The back 5 of the 2009 pack really is something else. I'd agree Buer, some very obvious areas where one team has the advantage over the other. Not quite so sure about the 2009 team winning the line-out battle aside from Flannery being the better thrower. Jumpers in '15 are at least as good and the '09 backrow lacks a lineout specialist. In general though from 4-8 they would have a fair advantage.

bilston

Neil3030 wrote: »

For the larf, I compared the team from Week 3 in '09 with the team from Week 3 in '15.

2009 2015
Rob Kearney = Rob Kearney
Tommy Bowe = Tommy Bowe
Brian O'Driscoll (capt) > Jared Payne
Paddy Wallace < Robbie Henshaw
Luke Fitzgerald < Simon Zebo
Ronan O'Gara < Jonathan Sexton
Tomas O'Leary < Conor Murray
Marcus Horan = Jack McGrath
Jerry Flannery < Rory Best
John Hayes > Mike Ross
Donncha O'Callaghan = Devin Toner
Paul O'Connell = Paul O'Connell (capt)
Stephen Ferris > Peter O'Mahony
David Wallace < Sean O'Brien
Jamie Heaslip > Jordi Murphy
Replacements:
Rory Best > Sean Cronin
Tom Court < Cian Healy
Tom Court < Marty Moore
Mick O'Driscoll < Iain Henderson
Denis Leamy > Tommy O'Donnell
Peter Stringer > Eoin Reddan
Gordon D'Arcy > Ian Madigan
Geordan Murphy > Felix Jones


Recall that only 7 subs were allowed in '09, so I've compared both of our prop replacements from '15 to our ambipropsterous cover in Court from '09. Probably not fair but it is what it is.

Surprisingly, I score it a dead heat; 9 edges per team, with 5 that I can't call. On that basis I'll give it to the '15 team, on the basis of it having a superior captain.

It's nuts how much the team has changed in six years. Only Kearney, Bowe, O'Connell and a returning Heaslip remain from the starting XV. I wonder what the team will look like in 2021!

clsmooth

bilston wrote: »

It's nuts how much the team has changed in six years. Only Kearney, Bowe, O'Connell and a returning Heaslip remain from the starting XV. I wonder what the team will look like in 2021!

Compare to the team from last year, no Trimble, D Kearney, BOD, D'Arcy or Henry. Heaslip been out also. Mostly injury based of course but the results keep coming. Some credit to Joe that someone like SOB can come off after 25 mins v England and, dare I say it, not really be missed.

TommyOM

Neil3030 wrote: »

For the larf, I compared the team from Week 3 in '09 with the team from Week 3 in '15.

2009 2015
Rob Kearney = Rob Kearney
Tommy Bowe = Tommy Bowe
Brian O'Driscoll (capt) > Jared Payne
Paddy Wallace < Robbie Henshaw
Luke Fitzgerald < Simon Zebo
Ronan O'Gara < Jonathan Sexton
Tomas O'Leary < Conor Murray
Marcus Horan = Jack McGrath
Jerry Flannery < Rory Best
John Hayes > Mike Ross
Donncha O'Callaghan = Devin Toner
Paul O'Connell = Paul O'Connell (capt)
Stephen Ferris > Peter O'Mahony
David Wallace < Sean O'Brien
Jamie Heaslip > Jordi Murphy
Replacements:
Rory Best > Sean Cronin
Tom Court < Cian Healy
Tom Court < Marty Moore
Mick O'Driscoll < Iain Henderson
Denis Leamy > Tommy O'Donnell
Peter Stringer > Eoin Reddan
Gordon D'Arcy > Ian Madigan
Geordan Murphy > Felix Jones

Disagree with quite a few of those. Rob Kearney of 2009 was better than he is now, Tommy Bowe of 2009 was definitely better than he is now, Luke Fitzgerald of 2009 was better than Zebo, POC of 2009 definitely better than POC of now. Tommy O'Donnell better than the Leamy of 2009 (he was very poor having just come back from injury)

desertcircus

The 2015 side has too many advantages. Probably stronger in the scrum, parity at least in the lineout (any reasonably functional lineout with a seven-foot lock will manage parity against a world-class lineout whose tallest jumpers are six-five), a stronger set of halfbacks, and murderously effective in defence.

total former

bilston wrote: »

It's nuts how much the team has changed in six years. Only Kearney, Bowe, O'Connell and a returning Heaslip remain from the starting XV. I wonder what the team will look like in 2021!

It's mad even how quickly the 2009 team broke up. Horan, Flannery and Hayes barely played again, Wallace and Leamy made it to 2011 but then were gone too, Ferris got a couple more seasons and is now gone, O'Leary and Stringer fell off the face off the earth...

crisco10

Which rules would they play under? The 2009 ELV's or today's current set of interpretations?? Would certainly affect the influence of the 2009 backrow if they had to play by the harsher breakdown rules (clear release etc). Also 2015 rules seriously favour McGrath over Horan and Best over Flannery...

I think lineout would be equal enough really. Flannery a better thrower and Hayes a great lifter, versus Dev and POM for the 2015 team.

Agree with others Kearney in 09 is better than Kearney 15. And I would take Luke (Lions starter) over Zebo.

RedemptionZ

I'm not really sure who is the better team, leaning towards 2015 because of the coaching staff but it's not black and white. Both teams are overrated but 2009 much more so imo. Best of a mediocre bunch in that 6N. Has to be said though Ferris was unbelievable, real shame injuries hindered him so much. That backrow in general was very strong, Heaslip at his peak and Wallace an immense carrier. Outside the backrow there wasn't much world beaters. POC in his prime and BOD past his prime but still a different level to most 13s were the only exceptions. I suppose Bowe was good too. Kearney had a good season but the guy just isn't an elite 15.

Wales 2012 would beat both teams.

Teferi

I'd like to see that 2009 team coached by Joe.

molloyjh

Watching Lukes first try against Italy in 2009 reminded me that even in that game we weren't in control until the second half. 19 phases to get that try is mental. Although Lukes work rate throughout was sensational. The number of rucks he hit across the pitch, even getting on Paulies shoulder at one point to drive him on in the contact. If one player in that whole passage deserved a try it was him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRXw7Jv9hJI

.ak

molloyjh wrote: »

Watching Lukes first try against Italy in 2009 reminded me that even in that game we weren't in control until the second half. 19 phases to get that try is mental. Although Lukes work rate throughout was sensational. The number of rucks he hit across the pitch, even getting on Paulies shoulder at one point to drive him on in the contact. If one player in that whole passage deserved a try it was him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRXw7Jv9hJI

As a winger he's doing amazing there. Just even little things like he keeps positioning himself back and forth and the breakdown happens infront of him, a good winger always needs to think of himself as an extra flanker when the play comes onto their side. But then he's on the other side of the pitch, popping up and helping the forwards. Fantastic work rate.

I actually think he's better at all of that stuff now adays.

That pop from Fez tho. :eek:

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

As a winger he's doing amazing there. Just even little things like he keeps positioning himself back and forth and the breakdown happens infront of him, a good winger always needs to think of himself as an extra flanker when the play comes onto their side. But then he's on the other side of the pitch, popping up and helping the forwards. Fantastic work rate.

I actually think he's better at all of that stuff now adays.

That pop from Fez tho. :eek:

Yeah Fez getting the hands free there was the difference between another half dozen phases of bashing away and the try. Great work from the big man.

Magico Gonzalez

BOD's impact in the 09 team carries them over the line. He offers much more than just being a better 13 than Payne. It's very early to be calling Henshawe this year better than 09D'arcy too.

Buer

Well, D'Arcy only started 2 games in 2009 so I'd say Henshaw is much more central to this team. Paddy Wallace started the games against France, England and Italy.

The more I think about it, the more I think the 2015 team would beat the 2009 one largely due to the coach and halfbacks.

total former

Buer wrote: »

Well, D'Arcy only started 2 games in 2009 so I'd say Henshaw is much more central to this team. Paddy Wallace started the games against France, England and Italy.

But that was due to injury, not to Wallace being favoured or D'Arcy being peripheral.

Tox56

total former wrote: »

But that was due to injury, not to Wallace being favoured or D'Arcy being peripheral.

Henshaw hasn't hit D'Arcy's highs yet but in terms of players we just cannot afford to see injured he's already right up there, more than was the case D'Arcy in 2009 I reckon

CatFromHue

Tox56 wrote: »

Henshaw hasn't hit D'Arcy's highs yet but in terms of players we just cannot afford to see injured he's already right up there, more than was the case D'Arcy in 2009 I reckon

I wouldn't rank him that highly just yet to be honest.

We are short of 12's which is a problem in that other than Henshaw we only have D'arcy or Madigan.

Tox56

CatFromHue wrote: »

I wouldn't rank him that highly just yet to be honest.

We are short of 12's which is a problem in that other than Henshaw we only have D'arcy or Madigan.

Not only is there a shortage of 12s but he is crucial to how we're currently playing, a physical defensive presence and first phase battering ram that is also excellent at the kick chase

aimee1

clsmooth wrote: »

Jack McGrath is a better player than Horan was, as is Ross over Hayes. Toner over O'Callaghan too IMO.

fitz 2009 was a top class player too. Wouldnt have him as a lesser then zebo.

Neil3030

To be honest, I may have been slightly biased by that absolute shift Zebo put in against England, that plus his boot and fielding swayed my decision.

desertcircus

Player-by-player comparisons only get you so far. Under the current rules, I'd expect to see the 2009 setup lose by a clear margin to the 2015 setup nine times from ten. Australia are the only team to have beaten Ireland by more than a single score in a year and a half, and that was right at the start of Schmidt's tenure. At this point, it appears to be extremely difficult to even get a proper foothold in the game against them, and every mistake gets punished severely. If Ireland lose against Wales or Scotland, then it may be time for a reassessment, but so far I've seen nothing that indicates the 2009 vintage would be in with a shout.

timaru89

Coach|Played|Won|Drew|Lost|Pts For|Pts Con|Pts Diff|Tries
Schmidt|16|13|0|3|428|216|212|42
Kidney|53|27|3|23|1128|964|164|114

rrpc

timaru89 wrote: »

Coach|Played|Won|Drew|Lost|Pts For|Pts Con|Pts Diff|Tries
Schmidt|16|13|0|3|428|216|212|42
Kidney|53|27|3|23|1128|964|164|114

So for those saying we haven't been scoring tries, our tries per game has gone from an average of 2.15 to 2.65.

timaru89

rrpc wrote: »

So for those saying we haven't been scoring tries, our tries per game has gone from an average of 2.15 to 2.65.

Win % for Joe is 81% versus 51% for Kidney too. So more attractive and more successful rugby:D

total former

rrpc wrote: »

So for those saying we haven't been scoring tries, our tries per game has gone from an average of 2.15 to 2.65.

We haven't been scoring tries. The above stats don't change that at all.

timaru89

total former wrote: »

We haven't been scoring tries. The above stats don't change that at all.

12 games out of 53 where we failed score tries under Kidney (22.6%)
2 games from 16 where we didn't score tries under Schmidt (12.5%)

total former

timaru89 wrote: »

12 games out of 53 where we failed score tries under Kidney (22.6%)
2 games from 16 where we didn't score tries under Schmidt (12.5%)

See, they're just random stats that just prove how weak the point is.

We have scored three tries in our three Six Nations games this season; that includes our two home matches and our game against Italy. That's, oooh, let's see, an average of 1.0000 tries per game, and 33.3333% of matches in which we didn't score any.

In the 2009 6N we scored 2.4 tries per match and scored a try in each game.

It's great that we're winning but let's not pretend we're doing it by scoring tries.

Neil3030

I don't think anyone is claiming that we're winning by scoring tries, but we are scoring tries at a higher rate than is being made out.

Tox56

total former wrote: »

See, they're just random stats that just prove how weak the point is.

We have scored three tries in our three Six Nations games this season; that includes our two home matches and our game against Italy. That's, oooh, let's see, an average of 1.0000 tries per game, and 33.3333% of matches in which we didn't score any.

In the 2009 6N we scored 2.4 tries per match and scored a try in each game.

It's great that we're winning but let's not pretend we're doing it by scoring tries.

In the 2014 6N we scored nearly a full try more per game on average than in 2009

total former

Tox56 wrote: »

In the 2014 6N we scored nearly a full try more per game on average than in 2009

My mistake, I thought this thread was comparing the 2015 team to 2009.

Tox56

total former wrote: »

My mistake, I thought this thread was comparing the 2015 team to 2009.

The posts you were responding to were talking about Schmidt's overall time in charge. If you're only counting 2015 Id say three games is a very small sample size to make any significant statements on