*** Proposed New Junior Cert. **Read Mod Warning Post #1 Before Posting**

evolving_doors

Fresh new thread. (Old one HERE )

For those new to this debate please bare in mind that some arguments have moved on and may end up in rabbit-holing or rehashing an old argument (mods may give a gentle reminder so please accept it with courtesy).

A few Rules:

1. Refrain from comparing to other types of education LCA,LCVP,JCSP,FE,FETAC,FAS,3rd Level etc. (See last warning in previous thread for reasons HERE). Comparing to what other countries do with this age group is acceptable, but remember that there are a lot of nuances to a 'foreign education system'.
2. Posts attacking another poster will be deleted or heavily edited (a cue is to look for the word 'you' in your addressing of the point).
3. Posts debating the substance of a point will stand a better chance of moving on the discussion.
4. Do not declare publicly that another member is going on your ignore list (or words to that effect). The best way is to disengage and not respond, this is your choice and the best way to quell the flames.
5. Please be aware that some topics (e.g. the new JC science syllabus) have been discussed at length on this forum so; A) Do a boards search/google search Be cognisant that everybody isn't up to speed, so maybe post a link to the past thread or give a brief synopsis.
6. Understandably, an opposing view is necessary for debate and learning. Much of the views that I disagree with crop up here so I think it's necessary to explore the rebuttals and other issues involved as we regularly meet similar opinions in the staff room or on the street (no matter what side of the fence you're on!). Also I've changed my own views a few times as a consequence.
7. Remember 'Continuous Assessment' is a loaded term (we continuously assess every day probably without even realising it). Stick to the Travers/JCSA Framework version.
8. Also make a distinction between school based certification and state certification as this to my mind is the crux of the Travers offering. For now, It is taken as a given that the unions are opposing any school based assessment for state certification (I think!).
9. For non-teachers (you are welcome). Certain topics may be disallowed as they have been discussed ad-nauseum (public vs' private, pay related performance, eliminating bad teachers etc.)
10. ASTI vs. TUI is a very emotive issue (they have some 'history' between them!). If it goes too far then it may be curtailed.

To get back on track... the state of play at the moment is this...

Department Position

According to Jan O' Sullivan all teachers must now follow the revised Travers document.
Click here for PDF
Yellow highlighter is from the 1st Travers document and is now OUT.
Red highlighter represents new proposals and is IN.

Union Position

Unions say the revised document forms the basis for further negotiation and they are not accepting this document. Teachers are being instructed not to co-operate with the department.




Do not respond to this warning on-thread.

Thanks

Mod

rainbowtrout

Jan is an idiot. Just the general arrogance of saying 'well I'm forcing it through whether you like it or not':mad::mad::mad:

I notice in that latest incarnation external moderation has been scrapped in place of some committee thing. It's just a shambles. I really hope we just go on strike again and make her engage.

History Queen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Jan is an idiot. Just the general arrogance of saying 'well I'm forcing it through whether you like it or not':mad::mad::mad:

I notice in that latest incarnation external moderation has been scrapped in place of some committee thing. It's just a shambles. I really hope we just go on strike again and make her engage.

Agreed. I hope that our unions will hold tough until a resolution is found. Saying that the longer it goes on the more my personal willingness to compromise erodes

Chancer3001

I too hope we go on another strike, just to show we are not engaging.

We have to hold tough until she's gone. New government isn't THAT far away...

acequion

I really am appalled by O Sullivan's attitude. She is after all an elected representative and I certainly am not willing to vote for people who dictate and bully. She is treating us as if we were nothing more than a bunch of disorderly kids.

But I shouldn't be surprised given that this is the Govt that brought in FEMPI, that slashed our pay and conditions under the protection of the infamous CPA and HRA, and she is following in the footsteps of her predecessor who threatened teachers with redundancies in order to have his way. 21st century style democracy,just leave out the democracy.

Hold tough,teachers! To capitulate again really would be disastrous.

evolving_doors

She was on Newstalk today inferring that teachers would not be paid if they do not follow the dictat!!!

Only response to with-holding pay is rolling strikes I would imagine. So the question is... will parents ire cause Teachers to go against the union?

acequion

Gebgbegb wrote: »

She was on Newstalk today inferring that teachers would not be paid if they do not follow the dictat!!!

Only response to with-holding pay is rolling strikes I would imagine. So the question is... will parents ire cause Teachers to go against the union?

Wow!! I never heard that.This gets better by the minute. But teachers who cave in shouldn't even be in a union. Voting yes to strike was a commitment to seeing the whole thing through.

Benicetomonty

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/secondary-teachers-write-to-education-minister-seeking-tradeoff-in-junior-cert-row-31037365.html

acequion

Benicetomonty wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/secondary-teachers-write-to-education-minister-seeking-tradeoff-in-junior-cert-row-31037365.html

Thanks for posting that Benicetomonty. Seems that the unions are behaving very reasonably and I'm glad that got reported. However O Sullivan is like the queen bee, all huffy and puffy,and let her off, as long as the unions don't convert reasonable into deferential. The attitude of the DES in 2015 really has to be seen to be believed. I'm not long back this evening from one of the oral marking conferences,where the condescension was apparent from the general attitude to the examiners to our having to pay for the 11am coffee [despite having come from all over the place in the snow!] Is a cup of coffee for the nation's LC examiners really going to bankrupt the country!!

But that aside,I'd be very interested to know more about this on-line training service. It's an extremely sneaky measure and I would be beyond disgusted with any fellow union member who would use it.

byhookorbycrook

If teachers cave on this, we will be seen as even easier pickings for the next round of paycuts...I mean "economies."

2011abc

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/school-managers-to-be-briefed-on-junior-cycle-implementation-plan-1.2122357

Video in above link shows the contempt she displays towards teachers .Once again clear that HRA2 was obviously 'Game Over' and union/s became redundant afterwards.She will threaten to dock teachers pay if they dont 'cooperate' in September and get what she wants .

evolving_doors

where is this online training stuff coming from (is it in the travers proposal somewhere)?

Maybe itll be sold to/phased in by jobbridge/nqt's mentees/subs as 'being good for the auld CV when the permanent job comes up!

I wouldnt be surprised if its all been set up/paid for and ready to go!

man_no_plan

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/education/principals-at-odds-with-teachers-in-junior-cert-reform-plan-31035566.html

This ****e sickens me. The management bodies and the NAPD being all up for stuff.

They look forward to engaging on the issue of resources. Feck that, engage now then support it when you know what's coming.

This blind faith in the DES is bulL****, schools have haven't got the manpower to run this and they haven't got the resources to deal with the paperwork and the napd know this. Get your resources first please. I say this as a member of NAPD, I'm not impressed at all.

And it doesn't help principals or deputies to have their staff reading in the paper that they're all gung-ho for something the staff are against, talk about making your life harder! It feeds into a them and us culture that's far too widespread in my opinion.

I think we have to live in the real world, there will be change, I accept that. I think we all should. What I don't think we should do is lie down when the fight is nearly won on the key issues.

The unions have been conciliatory but if there is a threat to pay on this the whole system needs to shut down and not for a day or two. I think that there's time for another strike in March.

Put our money where our mouth is now and see this out.

Benicetomonty

Unions' letter rejected by Jan. Ball back in their court.

km79

and here is their 3 line "response" http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/joint-tuiasti-statement-regarding-junior-cycle-dispute//back_to/asti-home/

MrJones1973

I would await events but Im curious to know if I refuse to mark my own pupils for this-can I be disciplined as has been suggested by the minister? Could I just give 100% -given we have no externs now?

acequion

‘It is regrettable that the Minister has not accepted our reasonable and positive proposal to move this situation forward.

We see talks as the only way to resolve the outstanding issues in this dispute.

The unions are considering the implications of the Minister’s position.’

Joint TUI/ASTI statement regarding Junior Cycle dispute

Copied and pasted from the website. The implications of the Minister's position are very clear. We need to ratchet up our industrial action! Everyone please contact your branch and demand an urgent branch meeting where our wishes can also be made clear.

man_no_plan

The threat to pay is unprecedented. I think its time to go to the mattresses 😊

You're right about ramping things up. Now is not the time for pussyfooting.

katydid

Gebgbegb wrote: »

She was on Newstalk today inferring that teachers would not be paid if they do not follow the dictat!!!

Only response to with-holding pay is rolling strikes I would imagine. So the question is... will parents ire cause Teachers to go against the union?

The best response is a work to rule. No doing tutor work such as register keeping, no extra curricular activities. Teach. Go home.

See what happens.

km79

katydid wrote: »

The best response is a work to rule. No doing tutor work such as register keeping, no extra curricular activities. Teach. Go home.

See what happens.

You are correct Katy BUT extra curr teachers just won't do this . had this discussion a few times in our staff room
Won't happen

Chancer3001

no, people enjoy sport too uch. its also a way to lose good will and parents backing too! We need to keep as much good will as possible. Extra curricular we should not touch.
Childrens education we shouldn't touch either - avoiding giving tests/correcting at home etc

evolving_doors

katydid wrote: »

The best response is a work to rule. No doing tutor work such as register keeping, no extra curricular activities. Teach. Go home.

See what happens.

The 'extra curricular' option has been bandied about a lot here in older 'strike/HR threads'
Upshot... some in favour, others don't see it as part of T&C... also for some its the only joy in a very difficult teaching environment.
I can see it splitting a whole staffroom tbh.

But! in saying all that I think it would be way of getting some attention... after extra curricular doesn't bring in the 'teachers only looking for more money' strawman argument.

aratsarse101

Is it true that some of those who were negotiating on our behalf in the last few weeks were in the background on TV on Saturday night - AT THE LABOUR ANNUAL CONFERENCE???

katydid

Gebgbegb wrote: »

The 'extra curricular' option has been bandied about a lot here in older 'strike/HR threads'
Upshot... some in favour, others don't see it as part of T&C... also for some its the only joy in a very difficult teaching environment.
I can see it splitting a whole staffroom tbh.

But! in saying all that I think it would be way of getting some attention... after extra curricular doesn't bring in the 'teachers only looking for more money' strawman argument.

The non-contract stuff might be the only joy left, but you can't have your cake and eat it. Either you roll over and accept what is being imposed, or you object. Either you object by going on strike and losing money, or you object by doing the job you are paid to do (and no more) and not losing money.

They've taken enough money off us. Why give them more? You work hard enough to earn it.

katydid

km79 wrote: »

You are correct Katy BUT extra curr teachers just won't do this . had this discussion a few times in our staff room
Won't happen

Well, if they won't do it, and are happy to go on strike and lose more money, that's their choice. It's kind of cutting off your nose to spite your face, in my opinion.

The extra stuff is what keeps us going, but this is a serious situation. If second level teachers are genuine in their objections, they have to do something now. And why do something that is going to involve financial loss?

Chancer3001

Because the alternative is poor.

We'd lose all our goodwill

acequion

We'd lose a hell of a lot more good will by striking and closing schools as well as hitting our own meagre pockets.

For once I'd be pretty much in agreement with katydid.I think work to rule is the way to go, along with some lunch time protests to keep the campaign publicised. By work to rule, I would mean withdrawing from non teaching duties such as HR. That would in no way impact on kids and their parents,but it would send a strong message to the DES.

Concerning extra curricular,I have been against them since the start of these disputes,because I think they normalise working for free,and our value has been cheapened enough. However,as Gebgbegb said,that argument has already been done here and I agree it could divide staff rooms.

katydid

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Because the alternative is poor.

We'd lose all our goodwill

The alternative is that YOU will be lose money...

What goodwill do we have?

evolving_doors

Dont get me wrong, im all for suspending Extra Curricular... But I think unions wouldnt touch the idea with a bargepole.

How about putting a ban on all lunch time meetings too! We're always expected to do meetings (fair enough) but if we're expected to meet over the latest inane initiative then give us time from class, I want to have my lunch! Ya sure I can say no, but sadly it wouldnt go down too well.

man_no_plan

Keep it about the JC. I think if we muddy the waters it won't help. We'd be better off talking about reactivating the strike mandate than engaging in nonsense protests that hit other areas.

Teachers who are involved in extra curricular generally want to be at it. In some schools they are paid for it. The issue is too complicated for a blanket ban. Your union cant ban voluntary activity like this anyway from memory of previous actual discussions in union circles.

katydid

man_no_plan wrote: »

Keep it about the JC. I think if we muddy the waters it won't help. We'd be better off talking about reactivating the strike mandate than engaging in nonsense protests that hit other areas.

Teachers who are involved in extra curricular generally want to be at it. In some schools they are paid for it. The issue is too complicated for a blanket ban. Your union cant ban voluntary activity like this anyway from memory of previous actual discussions in union circles.

It IS about the Junior Cert. It is about your supposed opposition to the proposals and the need to take action in response to the latest demands by the Department. Do you want to go on strike and lose several days pay rather than not do work you are not paid for and keep your money?

The vast majority of teachers do extra curricular work of some kind or another, and the vast majority do non-contracted work such as class tutor administration. Of course they LIKE doing it, just like they LIKE teaching.

But that's not the point - you are being forced by the Dept. to go work you claim you don't want to do. If you don't take a stand, either by going on strike or working to rule, you might as well just throw up your hands and do the blooming assessment, and all the protesting was for nothing. So do you take industrial action that involves you losing money, or do you take action that involves you not losing money?

I'm not involved in the dispute because I'm not in the sector, but if I were, I wouldn't be too happy to lose more money than I've already lost.