Artisan golfers

Kingswood Rover

Can someone settle an argument, do Artisan golfers have official GUI handicaps?

OffalyMedic

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057230881

Kingswood Rover

Read through that and still do not know the answer. When you join an artisans section of a golf club do you get an official GUI handicap and a swipe card?

OffalyMedic

As far as i know you dont, but could be wrong, Gui rules say u can still play in gui competitions though.

princess poppy

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

Can someone settle an argument, do Artisan golfers have official GUI handicaps?

Is this argument the reason last weekends competition isn't closed yet?

Had this before in an open. Handicap is 'managed' by gui but didn't have swipe cards. As far as I remember handicap should be treated as valid but can be checked directly with gui

Kingswood Rover

princess poppy wrote: »

Is this argument the reason last weekends competition isn't closed yet?

Had this before in an open. Handicap is 'managed' by gui but didn't have swipe cards. As far as I remember handicap should be treated as valid but can be checked directly with gui

No the guy that closes the comps was on holidays and how can an Artisan play in an open if he does not have a swipe card. Surely if you are a member of the GUI that has a handicap you get a swipe card. No one has answered my query conclusively.

Dtoffee

It is up to the home / host club to decide to accept an artisan entry or not. Once a competition entry fee has been paid by a declared artisan for an open competition, I think it it only fair that that player is as entitled to win first prize as all other entrants. However I also think is acceptable that clubs decide in advance to decline artisan entries should they so decide.

As I said previously, Artisan handicaps are recognised by the GUI and affliliation fees are paid.

Kingswood Rover

Dtoffee wrote: »

It is up to the home / host club to decide to accept an artisan entry or not. Once a competition entry fee has been paid by a declared artisan for an open competition, I think it it only fair that that player is as entitled to win first prize as all other entrants. However I also think is acceptable that clubs decide in advance to decline artisan entries should they so decide.

As I said previously, Artisan handicaps are recognised by the GUI and affliliation fees are paid.

But do they get a swipe card? because if they do then the home/host club do not know diddley squat about them being an artisan so how do Clubs decline the artisans when they want to play in an open comp. Can an artisan from say foxrock enter an open in Foxrock?

Dtoffee

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

But do they get a swipe card? because if they do then the home/host club do not know diddley squat about them being an artisan so how do Clubs decline the artisans when they want to play in an open comp. Can an artisan from say foxrock enter an open in Foxrock?

No they do not have GUI swipe cards, the host club has to accept the word of the artisan on his handicap if they are agreeable to him playing. However the Artisan will have an artisan card with his name and number for identification purposes.

Clubs can deem that offical GUI swipe cards are the only acceptable form of competition entry and that golfers failing to produce their card can play but will not be eligible for prizes.

Foxrock have no Artisans any more and tend to only run semi opens on a basis similar to invitionals .... member & guest.

Kingswood Rover

Dtoffee wrote: »

No they do not have GUI swipe cards, the host club has to accept the word of the artisan on his handicap if they are agreeable to him playing. However the Artisan will have an artisan card with his name and number for identification purposes.

Clubs can deem that offical GUI swipe cards are the only acceptable form of competition entry and that golfers failing to produce their card can play but will not be eligible for prizes.

Foxrock have no Artisans any more and tend to only run semi opens on a basis similar to invitionals .... member & guest.

So Artisan golfers do not have a swipe card but are members of the GUI. if this is the case and (i am still not sure that it) is but for Argument sake i will assume that it is, this drives a coach and horses through the argument put up here by posters that "distance members" were compromising the ability of again i choose my words carefully of "The established members owned traditional clubs" of retaining/attracting members due to the cheaper distance membership options readily available. When all along some of the older more exclusive type of clubs are in effective operating apartheid type golf regimes within their clubs "oh here you can play before 9 am on the morning of a full moon and after 10 pm on weekdays" Taking money and using it to maintain the course that they then can only play at times the full members graciously allow. An artisan will have a card with his name and a number on it.... you could not make this stuff up why not tattoo them and scan them before they are let onto the clubs grounds. And apologies D toffee not having a pop with you but ****e like this (if true) is unacceptable practice. In defense of the GUI once a person has a card they are all deemed equal in the sense that 5 day members, 3 day members, country members, under 35's, distance, minor, senior....whatever are able to play in GUI opens.

Dtoffee

My replys are in red, not to annoy you but to try and keep them in context to your post.

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

So Artisan golfers do not have a swipe card but are members of the GUI.

I never said they were members of the GUI. As I understand it, they pay a nominal fee to the Artisans Association who in turn pay an affiliation fee to the GUI.

if this is the case and (i am still not sure that it) is but for Argument sake i will assume that it is, this drives a coach and horses through the argument put up here by posters that "distance members" were compromising the ability of again i choose my words carefully of "The established members owned traditional clubs" of retaining/attracting members due to the cheaper distance membership options readily available. When all along some of the older more exclusive type of clubs are in effective operating apartheid type golf regimes within their clubs "oh here you can play before 9 am on the morning of a full moon and after 10 pm on weekdays" Taking money and using it to maintain the course that they then can only play at times the full members graciously allow.

Whos taking money?? the host club do not charge the artisans as far as I know.

An artisan will have a card with his name and a number on it
its their Irish Artisan Golf Association card....

you could not make this stuff up why not tattoo them and scan them before they are let onto the clubs grounds. And apologies D toffee not having a pop with you but ****e like this (if true) is unacceptable practice. In defense of the GUI once a person has a card they are all deemed equal in the sense that 5 day members, 3 day members, country members, under 35's, distance, minor, senior....whatever are able to play in GUI opens.

Im not having a pop at you either, I think we seem to be seeing different thing in our posts. Are you attacking the host clubs or is it the GUI or are you annoyed with artisan golfers or is it some posters on here?

As far as I know, the artisans seem happy enough with their lot and thats fair enough for me.

Kingswood Rover

Dtoffee wrote: »

My replys are in red, not to annoy you but to try and keep them in context to your post.




Im not having a pop at you either, I think we seem to be seeing different thing in our posts. Are you attacking the host clubs or is it the GUI or are you annoyed with artisan golfers or is it some posters on here?

As far as I know, the artisans seem happy enough with their lot and thats fair enough for me.

Yep i think we are and thanks. Attacking is a bit strong i am just pointing out the inconsistency of posters from some golf clubs that have artisan sections giving out about distance memberships when they themselves have cheap artisan options that does not seem to entitle them to a GUI card. i just googled the "Irish Artisans golf Association" not a sausage.

Dtoffee

This may help re the right of artisans to compete

http://www.gui.ie/leinster/championship-documents/leinster-boys/general-rules-for-golfing-union-of-ireland-champio.aspx

In relation to a web site, forget it .... we are talking about a very small organisation with a few hundred members.

Kingswood Rover

Dtoffee wrote: »

This may help re the right of artisans to compete

http://www.gui.ie/leinster/championship-documents/leinster-boys/general-rules-for-golfing-union-of-ireland-champio.aspx

In relation to a web site, forget it .... we are talking about a very small organisation with a few hundred members.

Ah i don't know Dtoffee, by the way are you an Evertonian, the name and all? A few hundred members, thats most golf clubs and they all have websites. Shamrock Rovers signed a player last week (no not a striker unfortunately) and he has his own website, i kid you not. This Artisan malarkey gets curiouser and curiouser Even point 2 on that Doc is vague, if you are an artisan and you want to play in a national/provincial comp you best get yourself handier under the Conga rules.

Dtoffee

re toffee ... guilty as charged and Im also an ex hoops fan who gave up after Milltown.... Im a feckin jonah :eek:

We can all set up our websites these days, but the Artisans are really not that organised or interested as far as I know. We are talking about an average of 20 / 30 memebers spread over a handful of clubs in the greater Dublin area and all with an ageing membership who have no interest in web pages etc. There was some great artisan golfers over the years, but slowly more and more joined clubs and moved on. I've no idea who runs the organisation now as the last chap I knew (Frank) sadly passed away a few years ago.

Check one of your local golf club's attitude to Artisan golfers here (item No 21), it may not help your blood pressure though
http://www.newlandsgolfclub.com/uploads/file/pdf%27s/Constitution%202002.pdf

Kingswood Rover

Newlands and all other golf clubs with artisans KOP on.

neckedit

Kingswood Rover wrote:

Newlands and all other golf clubs with artisans KOP on.

Artisans have been aroind for a long time and offered lads, like myself who couldnt afford full fee's to join, play at specific time, do some menial tasks on the course, course ranger and maybe lock up the place at night, any how I knew/know are very very happy with there lot. With the greatest of respect may you should look into the personal aspect of being an Artisan Member rather than a clubs constitution. This is a unique membership category that is nothing like Distant memberships and it is quite wrong to affiliate it with such.

Norfolk Enchants_

Don't really see what the issue is as long as they have a CONGU HC, it sounds like the OP views Artisan golfers as some kind of sub species that needs to be kept at bay, unfourtunately it's that kind of archaic and repressive attitude that has the game in the state it's in at the moment.

Kingswood Rover

neckedit wrote: »

Artisans have been aroind for a long time and offered lads, like myself who couldnt afford full fee's to join, play at specific time, do some menial tasks on the course, course ranger and maybe lock up the place at night, any how I knew/know are very very happy with there lot. With the greatest of respect may you should look into the personal aspect of being an Artisan Member rather than a clubs constitution. This is a unique membership category that is nothing like Distant memberships and it is quite wrong to affiliate it with such.

Morning neckedit, i am not affiliating artisans with Distance memberships and to be honest i am not on concrete ground here as the area seems a bit hazy. i am merely just noting what i feel is the injustice of Artisans being 2nd class citizens in the sense that they do not seem to get a GUI card. I just think that in this day and age it is unfair. this subject came up for me when i was discussing places where a club might be able to attract new members from.

Kingswood Rover

Norfolk Enchants_ wrote: »

Don't really see what the issue is as long as they have a CONGU HC, it sounds like the OP views Artisan golfers as some kind of sub species that needs to be kept at bay, unfortunately it's that kind of archaic and repressive attitude that has the game in the state it's in at the moment.

Hi Norfolk, i truly don't believe that Artisans are some kind of subspecies but you know that already. It seems that they being used as a source of funding and now apparently cheap labor in clubs some of which had members posting on here giving out about "distance membership clubs" in effect selling Gui membership cards. oh the irony. At least they got GUI cards i still can't work out if artisans do.

neckedit

Kingswood Rover wrote:

Morning neckedit, i am not affiliating artisans with Distance memberships and to be honest i am not on concrete ground here as the area seems a bit hazy. i am merely just noting what i feel is the injustice of Artisans being 2nd class citizens in the sense that they do not seem to get a GUI card. I just think that in this day and age it is unfair. this subject came up for me when i was discussing places where a club might be able to attract new members from.

Unfortunately The Artisans are becoming a dying breed, They were never not allowed to join as full members but chose this root for financial reasons. ....If you contact Grange Golf Club in Rathfarnham someone there should be able to give you a great insight into the Artisans there, they have their own club house and bar and by all accounts do great work around the club.

Dtoffee

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

Newlands and all other golf clubs with artisans KOP on.

I should known your religion ..... next thing you will be telling me Im BITTER

Neckedit nailed it, they are happy with their lot and the best of luck to them.

neckedit

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

They have their own separate club house oh dear, apartheid is live and well in the grange...... those with money this way please those with less that way and by the way why doesn't the GUI just give artisans a swipe card and let them play in opens anywhere.

Not at all like Apartheid and personally I find that a very flippant remark,
Grange Golf Club, a number of years ago they decided to build the Artisans their own club house, They have a very good Architect as a member, Who designed and over looked the project, it is now a place that they can use for there own meetings, functions and general get togethers.

I'm not sure if you really understand what the Artisan Membership is all about!
As I said before maybe you should do a little more research and talk to some of the members.

Kingswood Rover

neckedit wrote: »

Not at all like Apartheid and personally I find that a very flippant remark,
Grange Golf Club, a number of years ago they decided to build the Artisans their own club house, They have a very good Architect as a member, Who designed and over looked the project, it is now a place that they can use for there own meetings, functions and general get togethers.

I'm not sure if you really understand what the Artisan Membership is all about!
As I said before maybe you should do a little more research and talk to some of the members.

Apartheid apart, i think the description is apt no GUI card, i don't doubt that some of the "Artisans are happy with there lot" but that does not make it right only my opinion, they decided to build the artisans their own clubhouse why? The other one is a magnificent building was that not big enough? and you are right i do not understand what it is about so please enlighten me because it seems to me a throwback to doffing your cap to the squire up at the big house.

neckedit

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

Apartheid apart, i think the description is apt no GUI card, i don't doubt that some of the "Artisans are happy with there lot" but that does not make it right only my opinion, they decided to build the artisans their own clubhouse why? The other one is a magnificent building was that not big enough? and you are right i do not understand what it is about so please enlighten me because it seems to me a throwback to doffing your cap to the squire up at the big house.

Wow! you really are looking for discrimination that isn't there.
Artisan's have CHOSEN to be Artisan Members, They are not forced to be, its not like they have rocked up to the club house cash in hand and were told "NO"!!
it was an concession that gave less well off local people the option to use the local club at a seriously reduced rate, all be it with restricted times and restricted use of the facilities. Hence Grange built them there own clubhouse, a project I feel is to be applauded not scorned at and insanely put in the same context as apartheid, in return they would do a few jobs around the club and surrounds as I stated in a previous post.

I have tried to explain it as I know it, Maybe I don't put it across in a good way, but its all I can offer, Contact the Artisans in clubs like Grange, Castle Elm Park or Milltown and find out first hand. But I really think you looking to be annoyed at something that really was a great opportunity that offered a lot of great players the chance to play a sport they loved at a price they could afford, and got scores of people into the game that otherwise may not of had the chance.

PARlance

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

Apartheid apart, i think the description is apt no GUI card, i don't doubt that some of the "Artisans are happy with there lot" but that does not make it right only my opinion, they decided to build the artisans their own clubhouse why? The other one is a magnificent building was that not big enough? and you are right i do not understand what it is about so please enlighten me because it seems to me a throwback to doffing your cap to the squire up at the big house.

It doesn't take much to research for yourself.

An artisan golfer is a member of an artisan golf club. An artisan golf club generally does not have a course of its own, instead it is associated (allowed to be associated) with another club & course.

It is a dying form of golfer as society and golf has changed significantly.

In the past, the role of the artisan golf club was to allow working class people a chance to play golf. They would pay no/low membership to be associated with a golf club. In return they would get restricted playing rights and other restrictions. They would also help out with work on the course etc as part of the deal.

Many seen it as a privilege. A chance to play in a nice golf course for little to no cost.

Society & golf has changed. It's more affordable now and golf is generally more open so there is less need/demand for artisan clubs.

As for an Artisan golfer in Grange GC not being allowed into the members bar. Why should they.
As much as a bleeding heart might want it, they are not full members and they are not forking out the massive entrance fee or hefty annual sub.
You will lose paying members if they are sitting at the bar, after having forked out 40-50 grand (over 10 years) and up pops a guy to sit beside them that has paid 400 over the same period.

Life isn't fair, there are rich and poor, but no need to get all Nelson Mandela on it.

neckedit

PARlance wrote: »

It doesn't take much to research for yourself.

An artisan golfer is a member of an artisan golf club. An artisan golf club generally does not have a course of its own, instead it is associated (allowed to be associated) with another club & course.

It is a dying form of golfer as society and golf has changed significantly.

In the past, the role of the artisan golf club was to allow working class people a chance to play golf. They would pay no/low membership to be associated with a golf club. In return they would get restricted playing rights and other restrictions. They would also help out with work on the course etc as part of the deal.

Many seen it as a privilege. A chance to play in a nice golf course for little to no cost.

Society & golf has changed. It's more affordable now and golf is generally more open so there is less need/demand for artisan clubs.

As for an Artisan golfer in Grange GC not being allowed into the members bar. Why should they.
As much as a bleeding heart might want it, they are not full members and they are not forking out the massive entrance fee or hefty annual sub.
You will lose paying members if they are sitting at the bar, after having forked out 40-50 grand (over 10 years) and up pops a guy to sit beside them that has paid 400 over the same period.

Life isn't fair, there are rich and poor, but no need to get all Nelson Mandela on it.

^^^^

Thats what i as trying say...nice work PARlance

Kingswood Rover

To sum up i still think that the artisan member is a form of doffing the cap and i don t doubt that has given people an opportunity to get into the game, it just does not seem right, at least give them a GUI card so that they can play in opens they may even be let into a proper clubhouse. Many see it as a privilege, ah Parlance come on. Nelson Mandela, top bloke what do you think his attitude would have been to this topic?

PARlance

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

To sum up i still think that the artisan member is a form of doffing the cap and i don t doubt that has given people an opportunity to get into the game, it just does not seem right, at least give them a GUI card so that they can play in opens they may even be let into a proper clubhouse. Many see it as a privilege, ah Parlance come on. Nelson Mandela, top bloke what do you think his attitude would have been to this topic?

You need to get your tenses right. Many "seen" it as a privilege. Past tense. Going back 30,40,50,60 years.
In general, there was no way that someone like a chippy, factory worker or block layer could afford to play golf. That was just the reality back then.
Rich clubs allowed them in under an artisan club... They didn't have to do this, so yes, it was a privilege. One which the "rich golf club" was kind enough to offer imo.
They may not have made them equals but they still were charitable enough to give them something that didn't need to be given. The gates could have remained closed but they opened them up... Or at least built another gate.

It's less of a privilege nowadays, and Artisans are dying out as you're as likely to find a chippy or a block layer as Captain of a proper club and it's great that golf has become more accessible and society more equal.

What would Nelson think? Imo
1. He'd be insulted with your link to apartheid.
2. He would like to see how actions taken many years ago, by the privileged and non privileged working together, has helped in some way to change things. He would probably tell you that real change happens when both sides are working together (and he worked with both sides himself) and that little change happens with an "us against them" attitude.

So, I'd doff my cap to those guys from many moons ago in the Grange and elsewhere that gave others a chance to play golf when they didn't have to or when realistically there was no other way they could play the game.

Golf and society have changed. Artisans are dying out as a result. It's fast becoming a non issue really.

Kingswood Rover

PARlance wrote: »

You need to get your tenses right. Many "seen" it as a privilege. Past tense. Going back 30,40,50,60 years.
In general, there was no way that someone like a chippy, factory worker or block layer could afford to play golf. That was just the reality back then.
Rich clubs allowed them in under an artisan club... They didn't have to do this, so yes, it was a privilege. One which the "rich golf club" was kind enough to offer imo.
They may not have made them equals but they still were charitable enough to give them something that didn't need to be given. The gates could have remained closed but they opened them up... Or at least built another gate.

It's less of a privilege nowadays, and Artisans are dying out as you're as likely to find a chippy or a block layer as Captain of a proper club and it's great that golf has become more accessible and society more equal.

What would Nelson think? Imo
1. He'd be insulted with your link to apartheid.
2. He would like to see how actions taken many years ago, by the privileged and non privileged working together, has helped in some way to change things. He would probably tell you that real change happens when both sides are working together (and he worked with both sides himself) and that little change happens with an "us against them" attitude.

So, I'd doff my cap to those guys from many moons ago in the Grange and elsewhere that gave others a chance to play golf when they didn't have to or when realistically there was no other way they could play the game.

Golf and society have changed. Artisans are dying out as a result. It's fast becoming a non issue really.

Absolute brilliant retort Parlance...The whole essence and ethos of the artisan model is flawed because it is based on inequality and unequal power and in a sports club that is wrong. You mention the privileged and non privileged working together, in the case of those artisans years ago this simply does not stand up, they were brought in not out of some altruistic sense of kindness on behalf of the privileged of the times but as a source of cheap labor which was paid for by access to the facility at very off peak times.
Here is a thought should any sport that has a national governing body and i know i am going to get my head taken off by sticking it above the parapet allow its member clubs to have affordability/income as a requirement for membership..now there is a debate for another thread.

neckedit

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

Absolute brilliant retort Parlance...The whole essence and ethos of the artisan model is flawed because it is based on inequality and unequal power and in a sports club that is wrong. You mention the privileged and non privileged working together, in the case of those artisans years ago this simply does not stand up, they were brought in not out of some altruistic sense of kindness on behalf of the privileged of the times but as a source of cheap labor which was paid for by access to the facility at very off peak times.
Here is a thought should any sport that has a national governing body and i know i am going to get my head taken off by sticking it above the parapet allow its member clubs to have affordability/income as a requirement for membership..now there is a debate.

Man, with all that is wrong in our sport, slow play, lack of players, lack of under 30's playing the game, no coverage of our excellent Home Amateur Championships, Cheating, Handicap holding and I'm sure numerous other problems that I haven't mentioned, off all these, this is the battle you want to take on? Really?
TBH this seems like a little issue you may have with the sport and its traditions, be them right or wrong, but as stated they are unfortunately a dying breed as clubs are now not actively taking on Artisan Members, maybe a few still are but after a recent chat with a second generation Artisan from Elmpark, if I recall correctly, who was trying to get his son in, its now not available to them. He, at length explained to me how great it was that he played Elmpark for very little money as did his father, as they were not the wealthiest of families and at the time had no transport to travel to cheaper further courses. But hey Apartheid is a terrible thing.