How old is your gun? Show us yours

Tawny Owl

Mr.Flibble wrote: »

Ah, now things are clearer. This is not a Monarch/Majestic type rifle as I (& I suspect Tac also) assumed. It appears to be a converted P14 or M17.

I think the proof marks are pre-1955.

I would speculate that it is 1949 - 1953 and the serial number, if you can find it* would have an "H" prefix.




* If you can't, I'm wondering what it says on your firearms cert?

It does have a H and four numbers after this.

Tawny Owl

Mr.Flibble wrote: »

Lend-lease rifle converted by BSA after 1945?

Should I supply more photos it has BSA on the stock where its has protection.

tac foley

We REALLY need to see the right hand side of the action, please, on a SMALLER image.

What do you mean by 'protection'?

tac

Tawny Owl

tac foley wrote: »

We REALLY need to see the right hand side of the action, please, on a SMALLER image.

What do you mean by 'protection'?

tac

Sorry meant to say the Butt of the rifle has BSA, I will take some more photos and upload, this is very interesting I cant wait to see if you can date the rifle.

Thanks for all the hard work.;)

Tawny Owl

Photos attached.

Tawny Owl

Thanks again to both of you for all the hard work would be nice to see what I have and more important when it was made.

tac foley

That's a bit better, thanks.

You have a post WW2 converted Model or Pattern M1917 - AKA P17 .30-06 calibre rifle with a cut-back receiver and modified bolt. The stock is a commercial stock, probably American, and much used by the BSA company for their own rifles, but this is most certainly NOT a BSA - it simply has a BSA buttplate.

The action was made sometime between 1917 and 1918, and it that is as close as I can get.

See this -

The P14 story is another story all together, Few MkI's were produced in 1914 and there were some problems with interchangeably of parts between the factories. By 1916 the MkI* without volley sites was being produced and production continues till 1917. In 1917 the blueprints are once again dusted off as the Americans enter into the War and find themselves short of Model 1903 Springfields. In 1917 the P14 is redesigned to chamber the 30-06 round and produced as the US Model 1917 .30 caliber, or M1917, M17. The P14 and M17 rifles were after WW1 placed in warstocks and used again in WW2 by second line troops, the RAF, and Home Guard units. After WW2 they were considered obsolete and sold off, many were modified and used as sporting rifles.

Dating your rifle must be done by the date of manufacture of the ACTION, NOT the conversion to civilian format sometime in the 1950's by an unknown company. The futzing around with the bolt channel is significant, as that tells me that the stock was not made for this action, but was modified to take it.

Your original rifle was therefore used in WW1, as the eagle's head stamp, a mark put there by the US Government Arsenal at Springfield MASS, and found on all US service arms, would testify.

It is therefore NOT a BSA, but a Springfield. How you sort that out with regard to licensing is not a matter on which I can comment, having no experience of your licensing system.

Sorry.

tac

Mr.Flibble

I think that the conversion of this rifle is so comprehensive, including de-milling and re-serialisation, that, notwithstanding what anoraks purists like Tac & me might think, you would have no problem in a normal commercial or legal context asserting that the person who did the conversion is the maker, and that their serial number is valid.

The serial number conforms with the prefix given by Knibbs for M17 conversions by BSA, so I still think it was them that did this rifle. You should have a close look at the top of the receiver just behind the rear scope block and see if you can make out any inscription there.

I agree that the original receiver would have been made during the latter part of WWI, or shortly thereafter. But I would be doubtful that it was by Springfield. It's my understanding that virtually all P14's and M17's were made by Winchester, Remington or Eddystone.

Have you tried asking anywhere else? This is a very specialised query for Boards; perhaps a site like full-bore.co.uk would be better?

tac foley

Fine by me if the Knibbs detail serials match, but Knibbs is NOT the BSA factory. So you could call it a 30-06 Knibbs [!], in spite of the fact that to the world it is a sporterised 30-06 Springfield, just as every Lee-Enfield made is a Lee-Enfield, no matter whether it was made in England, Canada, India or Australia I agree that it would be difficult to establish a valid 'manufacturing' date, but in many countries it is the receiver that constitutes the firearm date, not any subsequent work carried out on it.

As for who made it and where - this needs reading -

'By the time that the United States entered World War I, approximately 843,239 standard service Model 1903 rifles had been manufactured. However this was insufficient to arm U.S. troops for an undertaking of the magnitude of World War I. During the war Springfield Armory produced over 265,620 Model 1903 rifles. In addition, the War Department contracted for production of the M1917 Enfield Rifle to help aid American troops. These, along with the additional 47,251 rifles produced by the Rock Island Arsenal and the weapons already in service, were enough to supply the war effort. During WWI the Springfield Armory produced ≈25,000 M1911 pistols before all facilities were dedicated to production of M1903 rifles.'

As I noted, how you deal with that in Ireland is outside my remit, but if it was in the USA or Canada it would be called a 'sporterised 1917 Springfield M17 rifle'. Here in UK it would simply be called a '.30-06 Springfield sporting rifle'.

tac

extremetaz

Having been following this with great interest - great work Tac and Flibble, makes for brilliant reading - seems like a fantastic bit of backstory to the rifle no matter how you cut it.

In other news, and quite coincidentally, I was over with a neighbour recently and he was showing me this 'cheap 22' that he picked up for a bit of pest control around the yard. I took a good look at it and it appears to be a pre-WWII Walther Model 2 training rifle.

The action is what I'd best describe as a bolt action semi-auto - which is to say that the bolt is sprung closed and will perform as a semi-auto if left unlocked, whilst acting as a single shot if latched down.

It has a mauser safety, which is not typical of the type, and that coupled with the german language marking on the bolt housing are what places is as a ~1938 training rifle. There's no formal records of the pre-war rifles remaining as the factory was bombed several times and the records subsequently lost.

It's far from original, the stock appears to have been replaces and it has a Parker Hale PH16 flip out rearsight, but the heavy barrell is pristine, and the trigger is quite crisp, so I'd expect it to shoot quite nicely.

I'll have a chat with him and see about getting a few pics of it. I've attached a few generic web images below for illustration.

tac foley

Extremetaz - My late father bought HIS Walther Sport Model 2 - identical to this, in early 1930. Having suffered a bad beating at the hands of the British when he was arrested back in 1921, he was almost blind in one eye, so he had had a scope fitted.

I still have the rifle and the scope - indeed, back in the 1950's I learned to shoot with it, first as a single-shot bolt action, then as a five-shot bolt action, and later, when I was able to pay my way a little with a weekend job, as a semi-auto.

Some details -

1. The gun shown is a Model 2 (as you noted), so it has a heavier barrel and a Mauser-style flag safety but lacks the twin screw holes in the tang where the ultra-rare Walther tang sight would have gone if it had been a deluxe model. Mine, the deluxe version - has the holes, but not the tang sight, but my pal Raul in Buenos Aires has a couple of perfect examples. the wood on the example in the photos is a semi-matt finish - mine has a very high gloss varnish finish that is still looks as though it was applied last week.

2. The Model 1 has a slimmer barrel and a sliding tang safety like a shotgun.

However this is NOT any kind of a training rifle. The Walther DSM [DeutscheSportModelle] rifle, also called the DSM34 after the adoption date, has/had a stock that replicated the KAR98k stock, with a forward barrel band like the full-calibre rifle, a top handguard like the full-calibre riifle, and sling cut-outs in the butt to take the military style sling.

ALL DSM versions, made also by Mauser, J G Anschutz, BSW, and others, were single-shot only.

My own example of the Walther DSM was buba'ed back in the 1950's and stamped 'NOT ENGLISH MAKE' and has the wording 'SPORTMODELLE' on the receiver ring - there were subsequently a series of these guns up to Model 5 with later versions having a scope dovetail integral with the receiver.

I'd be very happy to send you pics of both of mine if you like, since I can't post them here.

Both guns still shoot VERY well indeed with regular velocity .22LR ammunition.

BTW, please tell me what the German words are that you note?

Also, FTLOG do NOT lose the magazine - if indeed he still has it. Replacements ten years ago were going for ~$100 - a company in RSA makes poor replications for around 100eu. I bought a genuine spare magazine at a gun show in Tacoma WA two years ago, but I'm not going to say how much I paid for it in case mrs tac reads this. :O

tac

extremetaz

Cheers Tac,

I'll drop in to him and take a few shots of it - as I mentioned, those shown above are only internet stock.
The image below (more internet stock) has the same inscription as on his rifle.



Not familiar with the tang sight you mention, his is a PH16 as shown below (again, internet stock), except that his has an iris aperature instead of the fixed diameter operature:


His has the heavy barrel as you've mentioned, although I didn't notice any additional stamping or inscriptions - I'll take a closer look when I get over to him.

...and yes, I've warned him about the magazines - he has a 5 and a 10 shot with it, so he's well sorted for now at least.

extremetaz

Better shot of the inscription on the bolt:




Translates to 'Walther arms factory Zella-Mehlis (Thuringia)' as far as I can persuade google translate to tell me...

tac foley

Walther Gun Factory Zella Mehlis [Thueringia] - address of the former Walther factory in the Prussian state of Thueringen. Post WW2, Thuringia was in the DDR, but Walther had removed to their present location in Ulm-am-Neckarm kaing only airguns in accordance with the post-war ban on Germany being able to produce firearms.

The French got a lot of the recovered [not ALL was lost to the Russians] Walther tooling, and set up a factory in the Alsace Region of France. The manufactory was called MANURHIN - officially known as Manufacture de Machines du Haut-Rhin, in Haut-Rhin, France. They started by manufacturing Walther PP, PPK, and PPK/S model pistols beginning in 1952, and later revolvers. Since 1998 they have been acquired by Chapuis, made famous for their high-quality rifles and shotguns.

tac

tac foley

That ten-shot magazine is worth the price of a CZ rifle. I've never seen one in my life!

Did I mention that the Parker-Hale adjustable-base scopes on my rifle hold an original Walther-branded x2.5 scope of simple but effective design?

Well, just now I did.

tac

Tawny Owl

tac foley wrote: »

Fine by me if the Knibbs detail serials match, but Knibbs is NOT the BSA factory. So you could call it a 30-06 Knibbs [!], in spite of the fact that to the world it is a sporterised 30-06 Springfield, just as every Lee-Enfield made is a Lee-Enfield, no matter whether it was made in England, Canada, India or Australia I agree that it would be difficult to establish a valid 'manufacturing' date, but in many countries it is the receiver that constitutes the firearm date, not any subsequent work carried out on it.

As for who made it and where - this needs reading -

'By the time that the United States entered World War I, approximately 843,239 standard service Model 1903 rifles had been manufactured. However this was insufficient to arm U.S. troops for an undertaking of the magnitude of World War I. During the war Springfield Armory produced over 265,620 Model 1903 rifles. In addition, the War Department contracted for production of the M1917 Enfield Rifle to help aid American troops. These, along with the additional 47,251 rifles produced by the Rock Island Arsenal and the weapons already in service, were enough to supply the war effort. During WWI the Springfield Armory produced ≈25,000 M1911 pistols before all facilities were dedicated to production of M1903 rifles.'

As I noted, how you deal with that in Ireland is outside my remit, but if it was in the USA or Canada it would be called a 'sporterised 1917 Springfield M17 rifle'. Here in UK it would simply be called a '.30-06 Springfield sporting rifle'.

tac

Hello again,
Check the rifle again last night and found markings stamped just under the rear mount saying

"Made In England"

Regards.

Czhornet

My father has a single barrel Stevens shotgun with a hammer that you have to pull back to cock it. To release it you have to put you thumb on the hammer, pull the trigger and let the hammer in slowly. How he can do that on a cold frosty mornings with numb fingers I dont know.
My first gun was a German made Suhl s/s. Great left barrel on it but when I shot clays the rib got so hot that a haze would rise off it and it was hard to see the clay. That's why I have a Browning Ultra XS now

tac foley

Tawny Owl wrote: »

Hello again,
Check the rifle again last night and found markings stamped just under the rear mount saying

"Made In England"

Regards.

The US Government acceptance stamp on the action tells a different story.

'Converted in England' or 'Assembled from an American action and stock, with a BSA butt-plate stuck on the end' would be far closer to the truth.

Please accept that your rifle is based on an American-made military rifle action - sometime between 1917 and 1920. Nowhere in the UK - ever - was such an action EVER made with American acceptance stamps on it.

With NO mass-production Mauser-action production facility ever having been part of the British armaments industry - sporting or military - a very high proportion of so-called English BSA and Parker-Hale Mauser-action rifles were built on wartime surplus Mauser actions from Belgium and ex-Home Guard and British military emergency weapons stocks. After they dried up, they went over to Yugoslavian-made Mauser actions made by Zastava Brojovka [ZB], Fabrique Nationale in Belgium FN], Spain [La Coruna] and elsewhere.

As for what your rifle is, well, you can call it what you like. I'm done. If you don't like the news we brought you, turn off the radio.

tac

Tawny Owl

tac foley wrote: »

The US Government acceptance stamp on the action tells a different story.

'Converted in England' or 'Assembled from an American action and stock, with a BSA butt-plate stuck on the end' would be far closer to the truth.

Please accept that your rifle is based on an American-made military rifle action - sometime between 1917 and 1920. Nowhere in the UK - ever - was such an action EVER made with American acceptance stamps on it.

With NO mass-production Mauser-action production facility ever having been part of the British armaments industry - sporting or military - a very high proportion of so-called English BSA and Parker-Hale Mauser-action rifles were built on wartime surplus Mauser actions from Belgium and ex-Home Guard and British military emergency weapons stocks. After they dried up, they went over to Yugoslavian-made Mauser actions made by Zastava Brojovka [ZB], Fabrique Nationale in Belgium FN], Spain [La Coruna] and elsewhere.

As for what your rifle is, well, you can call it what you like. I'm done. If you don't like the news we brought you, turn off the radio.

tac

I thank you for all the information you and Mr Flibble added, it is quite interesting reading, no where did I complain about the details that you both posted, I find your last comment very aburpt and not at all friendly or polite, I thank you again, so as they say in America and maybe Canada.

"Have a nice day"

extremetaz

tac foley wrote: »

That ten-shot magazine is worth the price of a CZ rifle. I've never seen one in my life!

lol - I'll be sure to mention that when I'm next chatting to him.

tac foley wrote: »

Did I mention that the Parker-Hale adjustable-base scopes on my rifle hold an original Walther-branded x2.5 scope of simple but effective design?

I'd be interested to see that - any pics?

tac foley

Like I said, I can't post pics here, but if you email me I can send you all the pics you want to post here.

I have around 20,000 gun pics......some of them are even mine, and I'm happy to make new ones for you to put on the forum.

tac

jooksavage

I have my uncle's old beat up o/u FEG shotgun. Made in the USSR. No idea what date. My uncle says he bought it second hand in the early '60s.

tac foley

It is Hungarian - FÉG (Fegyver- és Gépgyár, "Arms and Machine Factory") refers to the now defunct Hungarian company Fegyver- és Gépgyártó Részvénytársaság ("Arms and Machine Manufacturing Company"), which was founded on February 24, 1891 in Budapest.

tac

jooksavage

tac foley wrote: »

It is Hungarian - FÉG (Fegyver- és Gépgyár, "Arms and Machine Factory") refers to the now defunct Hungarian company Fegyver- és Gépgyártó Részvénytársaság ("Arms and Machine Manufacturing Company"), which was founded on February 24, 1891 in Budapest.

tac

Cool beans. Thanks for the info!

tac foley

Nae bother, Jimmy. The company was an important arms manufacturer in the country, but it also produced gas equipment, water heaters, lamps and miscellaneous metalware. Throughout its history it was renamed several times for various reasons; to Fémáru, Fegyver- és Gépgyár ("Metalware, Arms and Machine Factory") in 1935, to Lámpagyár ("Lamp Factory") in 1946, to Fegyver- és Gázkészülékgyár ("Arms and Gas Equipment Factory") in 1965. Decades later, in post-communist times it was renamed as FÉGARMY Fegyvergyártó Kft. ("FÉGARMY Arms Factory Ltd.").

Through its history it always fulfilled a crucial role in supplying the Honvédség with small arms, and this company also manufactured and exported a variety of semi-automatic pistols and rifles, including the P9M and the PJK-9HP models (copies of the famous Browning Hi-Power) and the FÉG PA-63 (a Walther PP/PPK clone in 9x18mm Makarov), but currently only self-loading pistols (P9L, P9M, P9R, etc.) and break-barrel air rifles (LG 427, LG 527). In Hungary the company is also famous for its starting pistols, for example the GRP-9, as well as manufacturing most of the propane water boilers and heaters found in Hungarian panel houses. After 2004 many of its traditional export markets were put under embargo and this caused the company to go bankrupt.

Their civilian shotguns were simple and robust, like their Baikal equivalents made in Russia.

No parts though, so don't bust anything.

tac

jooksavage

tac foley wrote: »

Nae bother, Jimmy. The company was an important arms manufacturer in the country, but it also produced gas equipment, water heaters, lamps and miscellaneous metalware. Throughout its history it was renamed several times for various reasons; to Fémáru, Fegyver- és Gépgyár ("Metalware, Arms and Machine Factory") in 1935, to Lámpagyár ("Lamp Factory") in 1946, to Fegyver- és Gázkészülékgyár ("Arms and Gas Equipment Factory") in 1965. Decades later, in post-communist times it was renamed as FÉGARMY Fegyvergyártó Kft. ("FÉGARMY Arms Factory Ltd.").

Through its history it always fulfilled a crucial role in supplying the Honvédség with small arms, and this company also manufactured and exported a variety of semi-automatic pistols and rifles, including the P9M and the PJK-9HP models (copies of the famous Browning Hi-Power) and the FÉG PA-63 (a Walther PP/PPK clone in 9x18mm Makarov), but currently only self-loading pistols (P9L, P9M, P9R, etc.) and break-barrel air rifles (LG 427, LG 527). In Hungary the company is also famous for its starting pistols, for example the GRP-9, as well as manufacturing most of the propane water boilers and heaters found in Hungarian panel houses. After 2004 many of its traditional export markets were put under embargo and this caused the company to go bankrupt.

Their civilian shotguns were simple and robust, like their Baikal equivalents made in Russia.

No parts though, so don't bust anything.

tac

Ha, wow. I'll pass this back to my uncle - he'll be intested to hear about the gun he'd been using for nearly 50 years yet knew nothing about! It's in a bit of a state: the steel is scratched and pocked, and stock is scratched to bits and stained from decades of the abuse you'd expect an 80 year old farmer to have meeted out. Still, it's nice to fire: good weight and balance. Has a lovely action and the ejectors still work!

Thanks again!

tac foley

When the mechanism goes t*ts-up, it will still have the heft to make a dandy club.

tac

cruisedub1

IMG_20170318_171220~3.jpg Latest acquisition ,a Marlin 336a in 30/30 . Manufactured in 1948 with a J M mark . Sight is a Lyman type 56 . As far as I can tell it's in an unfired condition .

tac foley

It was highly pixellated for me, but what I can see shows a lovely rifle.

tac

Liam_D

My oldest Gun is a Victor Sarasqueta 6E sidelock probably from the 1970's