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Heinz 57 Lab/retriever type puppy - where to get one?
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26-02-2015 3:45pm#1
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My oldest dog hates jumpy puppies, and she's only 7. She's very accepting of older dogs though, and by older I mean adult dogs. She has a couple of favourites, sighthounds are one and black mongrels/lab crosses are another
. We introduced her companion to her when she was 4, who was a year old dog, initially as a foster, now they can't be separated. But I'm mindful that she's not fond of pups and rarely leave her alone with one as she just gets frustrated.
OP if you're determined to get another dog, fostering for a local rescue is the ideal option. Particularly as you're fairly open minded breed wise, and they always find it hardest to rehome the larger mongrels (there's always a lot of fosterers for the cute fluffy ones!) The rescue is always on hand for advice and support and if the dogs don't bond well then you've got back up and the dog can go to another foster. If they do bond then you can always make it a permanent arrangement by adoption.0 -
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Hi Boomerang, thanks for sharing your story. I'm sorry to hear of the distress you went through with your dog, it must have been quite upsetting.
I'm on the fence over this. One part of me says let my ageing lady enjoy her dotage (she's just turning 10 in a few weeks so not THAT old yet) but another part of me thinks she'd be a great mentor for a young pup and it would give her a new focus shot of energy. I honestly don't think introducing a new pup will in any way reduce the affection or care the older dog will receive. Yes there will be a bit of fuss over the puppy but we can pro actively manage that situation by always making more of an initial fuss over the older dog and I really would like the fantastic habits and behaviour from the older dog to be transitioned as much as possible to a young pup.
The "adopt a dog" charity/rescue sites I've been researching pretty much all request that very young pups (6-10 weeks old) are paired with older dogs for companionship and mentoring rather than placed with familes where they will be the only dog and good animal welfare is the entire reason these organisations exist.
I do understand your argument but I don't accept that continuing to love and care for an older dog whilst loving and taking care of a young pup are mutually exclusive or that the latter will be a negative experience for the older dog.
I may be totally wrong but I'm leaning towards getting the pup!!
I would run away screaming from any charity or rescue that rehomes pups at 6 weeks. I am intrigued that they pretty much all request the pups are paired, its against the forum charter to post names of rescues, but would you mind pming me with the names of some of them. I and a lot of posters on here are or have been involved in rescue, and its not something I've come across.
I think you're right, 10 isn't a great age, my 11 year old girl is still very playful with other dogs and flirtatious with some
I also have a bitch that will be 10 in May that is very tolerant, until she isn't, but I wouldn't have an issue with introducing a young dog to her.
Best of luck in your search
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Thanks DBB, that's interesting info and good to know.
I guess in the absence of having access to someone who has acquired a degree in animal behaviour (apparently there are a few on this forum??) the next best qualified person to take advice from is a vet?
I'll be pretty blunt with you on this one. Some vets take a bit of an interest in behaviour, and work alongside qualified behaviourists to establish whether there are medical interactions affecting a dog's behaviour, and if necessary prescribing appropriate psychoactive medication.
But they are in the minority.
Many vets have no more expertise than your average dog owner. There are certain things that owners and vets say about why dogs do x, y and z that exposes their lack of knowledge. I'm afraid your vet is one of them. His talk of your pup finding its place in the pack means that he's working off some very outdated and disproven ideas.
For what it's worth, I would tread carefully about getting a young pup, particularly because your dog has demonstrated that she could take or leave other dogs. Puppies are a pain in the arse for older dogs, there are quite a few threads on this forum from owners who are lamenting the same decision.
I think, on balance, that the proportion of older dogs that become rejuvenated by having a pup around is quite a lot smaller than the proportion who'd thank you not to foist a puppy on them.
You don't know until you try, but your description of how she feels about other dogs makes her more likely to belong to the second category. For this reason, fostering is,a win-win situation.
One thing I will strongly advise if you decide to go ahead (I think you've already made up your mind though!).. Do not get a female pup. The chances of running into trouble with two females when the younger one reaches sexual maturity, spayed or not, is significantly higher than when you introduce a dog of the opposite sex.
For what it's worth, this advice is from one of those qualified behaviourists 0 -
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For what it's worth, I would tread carefully about getting a young pup, particularly because your dog has demonstrated that she could take or leave other dogs. Puppies are a pain in the arse for older dogs, there are quite a few threads on this forum from owners who are lamenting the same decision.
I think, on balance, that the proportion of older dogs that become rejuvenated by having a pup around is quite a lot smaller than the proportion who'd thank you not to foist a puppy on them.
You don't know until you try, but your description of how she feels about other dogs makes her more likely to belong to the second category. For this reason, fostering is,a win-win situation.
One thing I will strongly advise if you decide to go ahead (I think you've already made up your mind though!).. Do not get a female pup. The chances of running into trouble with two females when the younger one reaches sexual maturity, spayed or not, is significantly higher than when you introduce a dog of the opposite sex.
For what it's worth, this advice is from one of those qualified behaviourists
Thanks DBB, I appreciate your well made argument and (qualified ) advice. I am leaning towards introducing the pup and your point ref making sure it's a male is valuable. Thanks. 0 -
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Link from charity seeking to rehome a 7 week old pup ideally suited to a home with another dog will be sent to you in a moment but the pup has been homed and the link is now dead. It was live last night be now gone, I promise!! In my research I saw a number of similar comments where the rescue/charity recommended the pup (usually older than 6 weeks in fairness but often in the 8-12 week range) would be best adopted into a home with another dog. I'll see if I can find a couple of the examples for you.
They may have had a 7 week old pup, but I doubt they would have rehomed him/her at that age. When someone applies, and then homechecks are done etc, it usually takes a couple of weeks at least.
8-12 weeks is grand for a pup to be adopted. Thanks for the examples by pm 0 -
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Just to clear one thing up op. There are a fair few people in Ireland who are significantly more qualified in animal behaviour than most vets are (some vets have formally studied the area post grad, some haven't but have boned up on it, often having learned what they know through working with behaviourists!). I cannot emphasise enough to you... The veterinary science degree does not qualify the vet as an animal behaviourist in any way. No more than a medical degree qualifies a doctor to be a psychiatrist. I have a science degree, but that doesn't make me a physicist... I didn't do physics. Similarly, vet students don't do behaviour unless they volunteer to go to the non-compulsory lectures. And we're only talking a handful of lectures here.
Also, I will add a caveat, because people are posting that their older dogs are great with younger dogs etc. When your dogs like other dogs, and are used to other dogs joining the group (as are all of the above examples, they all have multi-dog households), it is an entirely different scenario to yours, where you have a dog who has lived as an only dog all her life (save for brief visits from the terrier) and she has shown she's not that mad about other dogs.
So, I'm just saying to be careful because you're not comparing like with like.
Now, I'm not saying it won't work, not at all. I'm just trying to encourage you to go in with eyes wide open 0 -
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Hi FlowerGarden,
Apologies if my replies are coming across to you as sarcastic, that is not my intention.
I challenged the following statement from ShaShaBear "No offence OP but I would not be listening to a vets advice on this matter, they are not usually known for their expertise in behavioural quarters.
There are many more qualified people who post on this forum who will be able to advise."
I thought totally dismissing the input of a vet was a strange attitude to have but was interested to engage with the "many more qualified" people on here. I'm more than happy to take input from people with experience as many of the posters who have been kind enough to share their own experience have but "more qualified" than a vet is a different matter and so far, unless I'm missing something, I haven't seen any input whatsoever from anyone more qualified than a vet.
It's easy for people to dismiss someone who actually has a high level of relevant qualifications but to do so in favour of many more qualified people who don't seem to even exist in Ireland (if there's no such training here) needs to questioned and that's what I was doing.
I don't want to derail the thread with this but I find it really annoying when people make uninformed claims they can't stand over.
I'll think you'll find that was my post that you've incorrectly attributed to ShaShaBear.
I also think you'll find that on the behavioural front DBB is more qualified than the vast majority of vets so I was not making an uninformed claim and apologies if you were annoyed
That coupled with your outdated references to pack hierarchy inclined me to point out that your vet and indeed your opinion based on your own research might not be leading you to make the best decision for your own dog. Despite your vets age you have already been told the the behaviour segment of the veterinary course is non-examinable or are you just choosing to ignore that?
I also told you where you would find a pup should you choose to go ahead with it but really I wanted you to consider your own dogs welfare first before you jump in!0 -
So, I'm just saying to be careful because you're not comparing like with like.
Now, I'm not saying it won't work, not at all. I'm just trying to encourage you to go in with eyes wide open
Thanks DBB, I really appreciate your input.
Many years ago I had two Yorkies (a brother and sister) and they were a psychological nightmare. They thought they were a hunting pack. I couldn't walk them together as they'd attack anything and everything, the bigger the better. Ended up having to walk them separately. People thought I was great for taking "the dog" for a one hour walk before work. I rarely had the heart to tell them I was actually walking two dog's one after the other. I lost a lot of weight at that time so there's always an upside 0 -
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Apologies ShaShaBearI'll think you'll find that was my post that you've incorrectly attributed to ShaShaBear.
DBB certainly projects authority on the matter and I'm delighted with the steer he's given me. His input is thought provoking and will help me make the most informed decision I can.I also think you'll find that on the behavioural front DBB is more qualified than the vast majority of vets so I was not making an uninformed claim and apologies if you were annoyed
I'm not annoyed with you any more, all is forgiven 0 -
Thanks DBB, I really appreciate your input.
Many years ago I had two Yorkies (a brother and sister) and they were a psychological nightmare. They thought they were a hunting pack. I couldn't walk them together as they'd attack anything and everything, the bigger the better. Ended up having to walk them separately. People thought I was great for taking "the dog" for a one hour walk before work. I rarely had the heart to tell them I was actually walking two dog's one after the other. I lost a lot of weight at that time so there's always an upside
That would be littermate syndrome at it's finest. Another bit of weekend reading for you!
http://thehappypuppysite.com/puppy-search-13-one-puppy-or-two/0 -
I can understand the professional ridicule for yer man Milan, he's self taught/has a 'natural' talent and gets huge popular media kudos without having earned any official credentials but from the small number of times I've seen him in action (which I assume is edited highlights) he does seem to produce results owners and their dog's are happy with. I don't know if it's all smoke and mirrors or if the results last but what he does seems to work even if the methodology employed is outdated or unorthodox.
Thanks for the links. I'll read up on the info over the weekend.
I'm sorry, I'm not going to say any more than this as it's been done time and again here. Suffice to say you have answered your own questions with talk of editing, smoke and mirrors, and "appears to work". The cases that make it to tv are just that... The cases that appeared to work. I can 100% assure you that whatever about the owners, the dogs are most certainly not happy. Funny how he never does follow-up shows.
He has been called out on it many, many times. You tube has plenty of videos showing the off-camera abuse.
Luckily, many owners are getting wise to him now that the science has caught up with his jiggery pokery 0 -
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I think that between vets and behaviourists we have a few crossed wires here
If an older dog and a pup have to be brought together (to live together ever after) it is advantageous if the pup is as young as possible (2-4 months).
At that age young dogs are most susceptible to being "educated" by other dogs. They will be submissive, open to directions and will pick up the house rules in no time at all. They are hard-wired for doing so at that age.
An older pup (or even worse a "teenager") might already have pre-formed ideas on how things are supposed to work and might clash more or less violently with the established dog.
So in the ideal situation you either introduce a very young pup that can easily be moulded by the established dog or an adult dog that has been tried and tested to get along with the established dog.
A rowdy (and potentially badly socialised) pup of 6 - 18 months (depending on breed) would be the worst choice.
As for the age of the established dog ...as long as the dog isn't infirm, in pain or otherwise handicapped, age really doesn't matter. The younger the established dog the higher the chances that it will revert to near puppy behaviour for some time or at least be playful with the new arrival. The older the established dog the higher the likelihood of just quiet tolerance without much play.
An old dog might still surprise you by getting a new lease of life and becoming all young and playful again or a younger adult dog by all of a sudden wanting a quiet life ...but that's down to the individual personality of the dogs and hard to predict beforehand.
But in no case do you introduce a young pup to an established dog that has "issues" and is difficult to handle and control ...because by adding a pup you will instantly have two difficult dogs and four times the trouble 0 -
I think that between vets and behaviourists we have a few crossed wires here
If an older dog and a pup have to be brought together (to live together ever after) it is advantageous if the pup is as young as possible (2-4 months).
At that age young dogs are most susceptible to being "educated" by other dogs. They will be submissive, open to directions and will pick up the house rules in no time at all. They are hard-wired for doing so at that age.
An older pup (or even worse a "teenager") might already have pre-formed ideas on how things are supposed to work and might clash more or less violently with the established dog.
So in the ideal situation you either introduce a very young pup that can easily be moulded by the established dog or an adult dog that has been tried and tested to get along with the established dog.
A rowdy (and potentially badly socialised) pup of 6 - 18 months (depending on breed) would be the worst choice.
As for the age of the established dog ...as long as the dog isn't infirm, in pain or otherwise handicapped, age really doesn't matter. The younger the established dog the higher the chances that it will revert to near puppy behaviour for some time or at least be playful with the new arrival. The older the established dog the higher the likelihood of just quiet tolerance without much play.
An old dog might still surprise you by getting a new lease of life and becoming all young and playful again or a younger adult dog by all of a sudden wanting a quiet life ...but that's down to the individual personality of the dogs and hard to predict beforehand.
But in no case do you introduce a young pup to an established dog that has "issues" and is difficult to handle and control ...because by adding a pup you will instantly have two difficult dogs and four times the trouble
^^^^ This is EXACTLY the outcome I'm hoping for. Introduce a very young (8-10 week) old pup to my 10 year old very well behaved dog who isn't a pushover and will assert itself if it has to but has never attacked or bitten any other dog including adult dogs brought into the house which could have been seen as threatening her territory.0 -
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