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Apple Data Centre Athenry = Middle of Nowhere.

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Comments

  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,204 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,287 ✭✭✭ n97 mini


    loyatemu wrote: »
    marno21 wrote: »
    Confirmed by ABP today it is the same guy:

    http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/303938.htm

    He was trying to build a data centre himself, I wonder is he still? Last I read Ulster Bank were looking for their €22 million back that they loaned to him and his brothers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,635 ✭✭✭ plodder


    Supreme Court rejects appeal by residents over Apple data hall approval

    The end of a saga that really put Ireland Inc in a fairly piss poor light. Years after the project was canned (because of the delay), we finally get a decision that there wasn't much to complain about in the first place. I suppose the best that can be hoped for is that the courts will make quicker decisions in future and the Supreme Court will simply refuse to hear similar objections.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,855 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    plodder wrote: »
    Supreme Court rejects appeal by residents over Apple data hall approval

    The end of a saga that really put Ireland Inc in a fairly piss poor light. Years after the project was canned (because of the delay), we finally get a decision that there wasn't much to complain about in the first place. I suppose the best that can be hoped for is that the courts will make quicker decisions in future and the Supreme Court will simply refuse to hear similar objections.

    I think it is time to make ABP the last point where a project can be stopped - after that, court action only decides the compo that is payable, and those that do not qualify for compo cannot continue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,225 ✭✭✭ DaCor


    I think it is time to make ABP the last point where a project can be stopped - after that, court action only decides the compo that is payable, and those that do not qualify for compo cannot continue.

    Ridiculous notion


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,225 ✭✭✭ DaCor


    plodder wrote: »
    Supreme Court rejects appeal by residents over Apple data hall approval

    The end of a saga that really put Ireland Inc in a fairly piss poor light. Years after the project was canned (because of the delay), we finally get a decision that there wasn't much to complain about in the first place. I suppose the best that can be hoped for is that the courts will make quicker decisions in future and the Supreme Court will simply refuse to hear similar objections.

    Not the result I was hoping for, but that's that.

    Fair play to the locals who took this on and wouldn't let it go.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,575 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Robbo


    I think it is time to make ABP the last point where a project can be stopped - after that, court action only decides the compo that is payable, and those that do not qualify for compo cannot continue.
    Which would immediately put us in breach of our Aarhus Convention obligations, disproportionately restrict a person's Constitutional right of access to the Courts and leave them without an effective remedy in breach of Article 47 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights. I'm sure there are more legal issues that can be with this proposition but it's not my preferred area of law.

    I'm all for cutting off baseless litigation at the knees but that's a bit extreme. ABP has to be accountable to someone, particularly given that it's under-resourced and frequently finds itself on the wrong side of judicial reviews.

    The full judgment is here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭✭✭ M50Jct15


    DaCor wrote: »
    Ridiculous notion

    Hardly.

    We seriously need to clip the wings of the legal/planning nexus.

    It is a leech on the body politic. :mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,225 ✭✭✭ DaCor


    M50Jct15 wrote: »
    Hardly.

    We seriously need to clip the wings of the legal/planning nexus.

    It is a leech on the body politic. :mad:

    See robbos answer


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,154 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CatInABox


    DaCor wrote: »
    See robbos answer

    What we need is more funding at all points on the process. ABP, the courts, every single part of the planning process is underfunded and neglected. Increasing funding would reduce the length of time all of these court cases takes.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,225 ✭✭✭ DaCor


    CatInABox wrote: »
    What we need is more funding at all points on the process. ABP, the courts, every single part of the planning process is underfunded and neglected. Increasing funding would reduce the length of time all of these court cases takes.

    100%


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,064 ✭✭✭ snotboogie




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,635 ✭✭✭ plodder


    snotboogie wrote: »

    Curious part ..
    The report goes on to claim the shutdown is the result of Apple cancelling its construction contract with Irish engineering firm Exyte, over a series of missed deadlines.
    I've never heard of them, but they appear to be a German company.

    https://www.exyte.net/en/Exyte/locations


  • Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭✭✭ M50Jct15


    DaCor wrote: »
    See robbos answer

    There are many things can be done without cutting off all court access. Abolish third-party objections for starters.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,855 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    M50Jct15 wrote: »
    There are many things can be done without cutting off all court access. Abolish third-party objections for starters.

    The access to the courts should continue, but the remedy should be financial, not stopping the project. Now at what point this restriction comes into play needs to be discussed and legislated for, but in principle, an objector would have to demonstrate a financial interest, and a potential loss.

    The proposed scheme should achieve approval by, say ABP, and then with a possible appeal to a higher planning appeals board (maybe a ministerial based appeal) but on a restricted basis. If an appeal to court, then only financial remedy is possible.

    The idea that projects can be appealed at every level and must wait until the Supreme Court adjudicates means that many projects die before they get there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,225 ✭✭✭ DaCor


    The access to the courts should continue, but the remedy should be financial, not stopping the project. Now at what point this restriction comes into play needs to be discussed and legislated for, but in principle, an objector would have to demonstrate a financial interest, and a potential loss.

    The proposed scheme should achieve approval by, say ABP, and then with a possible appeal to a higher planning appeals board (maybe a ministerial based appeal) but on a restricted basis. If an appeal to court, then only financial remedy is possible.

    The idea that projects can be appealed at every level and must wait until the Supreme Court adjudicates means that many projects die before they get there.

    Again it appears that the issue is resources in the courts.

    Preventing due process simply because there is not enough staff is not addressing the issue.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,855 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    DaCor wrote: »
    Again it appears that the issue is resources in the courts.

    Preventing due process simply because there is not enough staff is not addressing the issue.

    The delay in passage through the courts is a problem but not one I was addressing.

    The problem with appeals to planning decisions is the lack of requirement for a legal standing of the appellant - they could be anybody and do not have to demonstrate their interest - or even that they have one. It appears that some appellants take that action 'because they can' - which is a serious problem.

    The system of appeals to ABP needs some filtering system to remove the frivolous actions.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,154 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CatInABox


    The delay in passage through the courts is a problem but not one I was addressing.

    The problem with appeals to planning decisions is the lack of requirement for a legal standing of the appellant - they could be anybody and do not have to demonstrate their interest - or even that they have one. It appears that some appellants take that action 'because they can' - which is a serious problem.

    The system of appeals to ABP needs some filtering system to remove the frivolous actions.

    Indeed, the guy going around objecting to every data centre in Ireland just because he has land in Wicklow(I think, can't remember exactly where) and thinks that they should use his land instead. It's completely ridiculous that he's allowed to do so, as he's got no relevance to any data centre in the likes of Athenry or similar.

    Truth be told though, there's so many deficiencies in the Irish legal system. Sorting them out would go a long way to solving both the problem above and the backlog of cases.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,244 ✭✭✭ Greaney


    The latest article from The Irish Times seems to sum up the local objectors issues with the Apple Data Centre.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,965 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Greaney wrote: »
    The latest article from The Irish Times seems to sum up the local objectors issues with the Apple Data Centre.

    It is a bs argument.

    Data Centers are going to get built somewhere. You are on boards.ie now, the page you are viewing was sent from a data center. Got a smart phone in your pocket? Almost everything it does, goes through a data center.

    Ireland is a good location for these datacenters. Our temperate climate means that less cooling is needed, which means less energy used straight off.

    Then there is the fact that Irelands electricity grid is becoming cleaner and cleaner every year as more wind farms are built and now even two new battery storage announced this week.

    I see no reason why Ireland can't be 100% renewable energy in the next 15 to 20 years. Build lots of wind farms and back them up with battery and interconnector to France.

    The power used by these data centers then becomes completely irrelevant.

    Articles should be written about why we aren't pushing faster to renewable energy. Why we are still messing around trying to re-open dirty peat stations and Moneypoint.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,989 ✭✭✭✭ cnocbui


    Ah, yes, that brilliant little get out clause for renewables lunacy - an inter connector to dependable French nuclear power. Batteries are only good for very brief load balancing and for the delays while you spin up gas turbine backups. They are nowhere close to being economic or viable to store and release excess renewbales generated electricity at any meaningful scale


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,244 ✭✭✭ Greaney


    bk wrote: »
    It is a bs argument.

    Data Centers are going to get built somewhere. You are on boards.ie now, the page you are viewing was sent from a data center. Got a smart phone in your pocket? Almost everything it does, goes through a data center.

    Ireland is a good location for these datacenters. Our temperate climate means that less cooling is needed, which means less energy used straight off.

    Then there is the fact that Irelands electricity grid is becoming cleaner and cleaner every year as more wind farms are built and now even two new battery storage announced this week.

    I see no reason why Ireland can't be 100% renewable energy in the next 15 to 20 years. Build lots of wind farms and back them up with battery and interconnector to France.

    The power used by these data centers then becomes completely irrelevant.

    Articles should be written about why we aren't pushing faster to renewable energy. Why we are still messing around trying to re-open dirty peat stations and Moneypoint.

    The arguement is not BS, just because you say so:rolleyes:. If the data centres are built in other countries at least we won't have to subsidise them, the grid upgrade etc. The government have no intention of making the large multi-nationals cover the cost

    We are lousy at planning and clearly have no interest in the environment. No serious person believes we can be a country with 100% renewables within 20 years. Ireland doesn't have the political will to do it and that matters more than the ability.
    Irish examiner

    Green News

    Our track record is shameful, and we compare badly

    The arguement about our climate being suitable I now suspect was a bit of plámás as many big corproations have built theirs in Phoenix Arizona (one of the hottest cities in North America)


  • Registered Users Posts: 903 ✭✭✭ Wetasanotter


    bk wrote: »
    It is a bs argument.

    Data Centers are going to get built somewhere. You are on boards.ie now, the page you are viewing was sent from a data center. Got a smart phone in your pocket? Almost everything it does, goes through a data center.

    Ireland is a good location for these datacenters. Our temperate climate means that less cooling is needed, which means less energy used straight off.
    Or you could choose somewhere like Norway with something like 95% hydro power, cooler winters and summers about the same as Ireland's. There are many countries in Europe that 1) do clean energy better than Ireland & 2) have a roughly similar climate.

    I see no reason why Ireland can't be 100% renewable energy in the next 15 to 20 years. Build lots of wind farms and back them up with battery and interconnector to France.
    I see no reason why Ireland can't have several small modern nuclear plants within 15 to 20 years :rolleyes:

    Talk about pipe dreams and ignoring all current + past evidence.


    1) Batteries are not feasible on a nation-wide scale


    2) Interconnector to France isn't feasible. France already exports all current extra power generation and plans on reducing nuclear generation over the next two decades



    But sure, let's just waffle on boards instead of actually taking a rational look at things.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,225 ✭✭✭ DaCor


    2) Interconnector to France isn't feasible. France already exports all current extra power generation and plans on reducing nuclear generation over the next two decades.

    Just to clarify, the interconnector to France is happening and its not French electricity that its connecting to, its the European grid

    http://www.eirgridgroup.com/newsroom/funding-secured/


  • Registered Users Posts: 903 ✭✭✭ Wetasanotter


    DaCor wrote: »
    Just to clarify, the interconnector to France is happening and its not French electricity that its connecting to, its the European grid

    http://www.eirgridgroup.com/newsroom/funding-secured/


    I would have thought my grammar and point was clear that 'an interconnector to France to provide us with their cheap, clean nuclear fuel' wasn't feasible ��


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,225 ✭✭✭ DaCor


    I would have thought my grammar and point was clear that 'an interconnector to France to provide us with their cheap, clean nuclear fuel' wasn't feasible ��

    I replied to the point you made. <snip>

    Mod: Respect the poster.


  • Registered Users Posts: 903 ✭✭✭ Wetasanotter


    DaCor wrote: »
    I replied to the point you made. Not my fault if you didn't say what you meant
    I said what I meant.


    "Interconnector to France isn't feasible. France already exports all current extra power generation and plans on reducing nuclear generation over the next two decades."


    What follows after the first sentence is an explanation as to why it isn't feasible.


    <snip>

    Mod: Respect the poster.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,855 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    Mod: Please respect the charter - do not attack the poster - just the post.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,225 ✭✭✭ DaCor


    That's that for a data center in Athenry, the permission extension has been quashed, costs awarded against GCC and the govt in favour of the complainants

    PRESS RELEASE

    ECO-ADVOCACY

    WEDNESDAY 25 MAY 2022

    IMMEDIATE RELEASE

     

    Galway Apple Data Centre permission extension quashed


    The High Court has quashed the decision of Galway County Council to allow a further 5 years for Apple to construct eight data halls on a 202 hectare site on un-zoned and un-serviced rural lands at Derrydonnell, Athenry, County Galway.


    The challenges by the NGO Eco-Advocacy and resident Allan Daly follows on rulings by both the European Court of Justice and the Aarhus Compliance Committee that Ireland’s planning laws undermine European Environment law in allowing extension to planning permissions without public participation.


    The judgment found that Galway County Council failed to assess extending the period originally set for carrying out the project which is required to be preceded by an assessment of its implications under EU legislation which also requires public participation.


    Kieran Cummins, a Director of Eco-Advocacy, said their submission on the extension was returned with the €20 fee by Galway County Council in July 2021. It was this decision that was quashed in the High Court this week.


    ‘The EU legislation specifically requires ‘an assessment of other plans or projects’, Mr. Cummins said. ‘In the 6 years since this application was made Ireland’s data centres have grown from 5% to consuming 14% and are now projected to require 30% of Ireland’s energy by 2030. The permission should have been reassessed in the light of this new landscape.’


    Mr. Cummins, who addressed the recent annual ‘Law and the Environment Conference’ at University College Cork on the subject of Data Centres, said that ‘This case is a perfect example of why large-scale planning permissions should not be extended without public participation and fresh evaluation. What was attempted here was to use a loophole that allowed Apple to avoid the current policy of refusal by Eirgrid to take new applications.’


    Minister Eamon Ryan confirmed that policy yesterday, telling RTE that ‘We haven’t taken a new application for a new data centre going back almost two years to July 2020’.


    In his address, Mr. Cummins cited a 2019 Report by the Irish Academy of Engineering (IAE) who ‘have estimated data centre expansion will require almost €9bn in new energy infrastructure and add at least 1.5m tonnes to Ireland’s carbon emissions by 2030 – a 13% spike on current electricity sector emissions.’


    ‘Most countries are seeing their electricity demand stagnate or decline as their populations are stagnant or decreasing while energy efficiency is increasing. This compares with Ireland where we are seeing our electricity demand increase’, he told the Conference.


    Cost were awarded against Galway County Council and against Ireland and the Attorney General, 50% to be paid by each party to Eco Advocacy and to Mr. Daly. No order was made in relation to the costs of the notice party, Apple Distribution International Limited

    High Court Record Number Number 2021/812JR




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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,225 ✭✭✭ DaCor


    Some additional information around the quashing of the permission for the data center.


    Apple will have to put in a completely fresh planning application if they are to sell the site as a data center site





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