The concept of Hell Fire in Christianity

Defender OF Faith

Just until recently after talking to some of my Christian friends I came to realize that the concept of Hell fire in Christianity is deeper then I thought, some believe that true Christians do not believe in Hell-Fire, and that the Bible only uses fire symbolically, then you have the concept of Purgatory and Indulgences which I remember faintly from my History classes regarding the Reformations.

So I am asking with regard to the Orthodox views of Hell in Christianity does it exit? or is it simply a symbolic reference? are indulgences being sold today?

This is purely an academic question where am looking for informative answers regarding people faith, I hope atheists don't hijack this thread and turn it into 'why does hell exist if god is loving' type stuff.

lazybones32

I think St. Robert Bellarmine is one of the key figures in relation to Catholic doctrine on hell/hellfire. A lot of his stuff should be on-line, if you feel like looking for yourself. I will offer what I have (condensed and edited, of course) but not at this hour.

If this thread is going to be derailed, it will probably be Christians who do it. We've been arguing for about 500 years and I doubt we'll stop now...especially when we talk about one of the issues that caused the initial rift.

silverharp

There is a lot of confusion in Christianity because the early church mixed in a lot of Greek philosophical ideas about the soul being eternal. St Paul wouldn't have believed in the concept and I think I am right in saying that Jesus did not talk about any concept of the soul spending eternity there.
It seems to one of those ideas that got legs later and shows how the church just made stuff up along the way.

hinault

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Just until recently after talking to some of my Christian friends I came to realize that the concept of Hell fire in Christianity is deeper then I thought, some believe that true Christians do not believe in Hell-Fire, and that the Bible only uses fire symbolically, then you have the concept of Purgatory and Indulgences which I remember faintly from my History classes regarding the Reformations.

So I am asking with regard to the Orthodox views of Hell in Christianity does it exit? or is it simply a symbolic reference? are indulgences being sold today?

This is purely an academic question where am looking for informative answers regarding people faith, I hope atheists don't hijack this thread and turn it into 'why does hell exist if god is loving' type stuff.

In Catholicism, the Apostles Creed refers specifically to "suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell."

Death and burial are connected to Hell in the Apostles Creed.
So we can take it that hell exists most definitely.

Is Hell a tangible/physical place?
I doubt it because when we die our soul moves from this physical existence, in to a purely spiritual existence. So the sensations associated with physical existence such as physical pain does not apply in Hell.

This is a guess on my part but the pain of Hell will be more similar to emotional pain, except that the emotional pain applied will be far more acute so as to make physical pain seem pleasant by comparison.

tayto lover

Why would any Supreme being want to punish anyone with fire / hellfire anyway?
It just doesn't make sense.

ScumLord

hinault wrote: »

In Catholicism, the Apostles Creed refers specifically to "suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell."

Death and burial are connected to Hell in the Apostles Creed.
So we can take it that hell exists most definitely.

But how would they know he or anyone actually went to hell?


One thing I wonder about hell, why does satan maintain hell for god? Isn't he basically doing god's bidding by keeping hell going to punishing gods rejects?

Why doesn't he make hell a good place that people would like to go to?

hinault

ScumLord wrote: »

But how would they know he or anyone actually went to hell?

You're free to accept/reject what the Apostle Creed says.

The Bible teaches that Hell exists, and that unrepentant sinners condemn themselves to Hell.
The Apostles Creed said at every Mass affirms what the existence of Hell.

ScumLord wrote: »

One thing I wonder about hell, why does satan maintain hell for god? Isn't he basically doing god's bidding by keeping hell going to punishing gods rejects?

An interesting question.

ScumLord

hinault wrote: »

The Bible teaches that Hell exists, and that unrepentant sinners condemn themselves to Hell.

I can accept that part, but I don't know how anyone could actually know if a person goes to hell or not. People have gone to war under the assumption they have god's blessing, they've killed for what they consider the right reasons. Who's to say someone whos considered to be bad isn't doing god's work incognito? And they'll go to heaven when they die because no one can know what kind of personal deal others have done with god.

tayto lover

ScumLord wrote: »

I can accept that part, but I don't know how anyone could actually know if a person goes to hell or not. People have gone to war under the assumption they have god's blessing, they've killed for what they consider the right reasons. Who's to say someone whos considered to be bad isn't doing god's work incognito? And they'll go to heaven when they die because no one can know what kind of personal deal others have done with god.

Cromwell even thought he was doing God's work.
Imagine meeting him in Heaven?

hinault

ScumLord wrote: »

I can accept that part, but I don't know how anyone could actually know if a person goes to hell or not. People have gone to war under the assumption they have god's blessing, they've killed for what they consider the right reasons. Who's to say someone whos considered to be bad isn't doing god's work incognito? And they'll go to heaven when they die because no one can know what kind of personal deal others have done with god.

You mean that someone in this physical realm verify that something, such as hell, exists in the spiritual realm? That's a difficult one.

The short answer is does one accept that what Jesus says is true.
If you do, you then accept that Hell exists and the unrepentant sinner is sent to Hell.

If you don't accept that Jesus tells the truth, then doubt as to everything Jesus said comes in to play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMW2kHHGPa8

ScumLord

hinault wrote: »

You mean that someone in this physical realm verify that something, such as hell, exists in the spiritual realm? That's a difficult one.

No, I'll accept hell as part of the Christian story, but I don't see how anyone could tell who's actually gone to heaven or hell. They could make an educated guess but they can't actually know can they? It's not like it's a process you can see happening.

hinault

ScumLord wrote: »

No, I'll accept hell as part of the Christian story, but I don't see how anyone could tell who's actually gone to heaven or hell. They could make an educated guess but they can't actually know can they? It's not like it's a process you can see happening.

I see the point that you're making.

I agree it is impossible for anyone else to say what the state of someone else's soul is at the time of their death.

ScumLord

hinault wrote: »

I see the point that you're making.

I agree it is impossible for anyone else to say what the state of someone else's soul is at the time of their death.

So the apostles creed is just making an assumption?

It's things like that, that make the bible seem less credible. They make assertions that can't be made and state their own biases and assumptions as fact.

hinault

ScumLord wrote: »

So the apostles creed is just making an assumption?

It's things like that, that make the bible seem less credible. They make assertions that can't be made and state their own biases and assumptions as fact.

Can we cut to the chase here. I refer you to the Catechism which lists the texts from the Bible supporting what the Creed asserts.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm

Are you saying that you don't accept what the Apostles Creed asserts?

(these Christianity threads appear to be populated by several atheists, and I'd rather not waste further time debating with atheists. So if you can answer the question it would helpful. Thanks).

Defender OF Faith

hinault wrote: »

In Catholicism, the Apostles Creed refers specifically to "suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell."

Death and burial are connected to Hell in the Apostles Creed.
So we can take it that hell exists most definitely.

Is Hell a tangible/physical place?
I doubt it because when we die our soul moves from this physical existence, in to a purely spiritual existence. So the sensations associated with physical existence such as physical pain does not apply in Hell.

This is a guess on my part but the pain of Hell will be more similar to emotional pain, except that the emotional pain applied will be far more acute so as to make physical pain seem pleasant by comparison.

That's rather interesting, so from what I understand is that under Christian belief hell does exist however its punishment will apply only to the soul and not the physical body, ie. there's no resurrection of the actual physical body of a human in judgement day and only the soul will be punished/rewarded?

ScumLord

hinault wrote: »

Can we cut to the chase here. I refer you to the Catechism which lists the texts from the Bible supporting what the Creed asserts.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm

Are you saying that you don't accept what the Apostles Creed asserts?

Why would I believe it?

(these Christianity threads appear to be populated by several atheists, and I'd rather not waste further time debating with atheists. So if you can answer the question it would helpful. Thanks).

I'm not so much an atheist as a humanist. I believe in People and love the natural world.

looksee

The Anglican church has the same apostles creed. Just throwing that in for general information.

tayto lover

looksee wrote: »

The Anglican church has the same apostles creed. Just throwing that in for general information.

Who wrote the Apostles Creed?
Who even wrote down the words of Jesus?
Different people interpret things in different ways and prayers and parables changes from time to time in the Catholic Church. Even if Jesus did exist then his teachings, parables and prayers would have been interpreted differently throughout the ages by different people and what we have now may be quite different from what was intended.

hinault

ScumLord wrote: »

Why would I believe it?

That's cleared that up. I won't be replying further to you on this topic.

ScumLord

hinault wrote: »

That's cleared that up. I won't be replying further to you on this topic.

Is your believe so fragile you can't even question it?

Manach

To paraphrase a noted apologist William Buckley, Hell exists for those that truly deserve hell it.

JimiTime

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

That's rather interesting, so from what I understand is that under Christian belief hell does exist however its punishment will apply only to the soul and not the physical body, ie. there's no resurrection of the actual physical body of a human in judgement day and only the soul will be punished/rewarded?

I would not be orthodox on this, but tbh, I think even the orthodox positioned Christians are in a bit of confusion when it comes to the concept of Hell. Some will give ambiguous statements as to being 'cut off', and others will believe in a literal 'pit of fire'. 'Hell', is used as translation of a few words/terms, 'Sheol', 'Hades', 'Gehenna', 'Tartarus' and 'The Lake of Fire'. Hades and Sheol were actually the places of the dead, be they good or bad, i.e. They are the grave (Which makes sense in terms of us being told its where Jesus went when he was put to death). Gehenna (The Valley of Hinnom) was a dump outside Jerusalem which was constantly burning and so was used symbolically. Tartarus means a deep pit, and the writer of Revelation actually gives us a literal translation of what he meant by the lake of fire in chapter 20 when he says of it '....which means the second death of which there is no resurrection...'.
So firstly, I see absolutely no value in God keeping people conscious and suffering for all eternity, and secondly, the references to 'hell' being an eternal punishment IMO are a misunderstanding, in that the eternal nature of the punishment is that it lasts for eternity, I.E. You wont be coming back, rather than people being consciously pain-ridden with no chance of redemption for all eternity.

So I think the common doctrine of hell a)Makes absolutely no sense, and b) Does not truly have the biblical weight some would believe it has.

Gunney

silverharp wrote: »

There is a lot of confusion in Christianity because the early church mixed in a lot of Greek philosophical ideas about the soul being eternal. St Paul wouldn't have believed in the concept and I think I am right in saying that Jesus did not talk about any concept of the soul spending eternity there.
It seems to one of those ideas that got legs later and shows how the church just made stuff up along the way.

Jesus spoke about Hell, quite a bit in fact - He says it is eternal, unquenchable, and people go there to remain forever

Matthew 13:41-42, 49-50 “The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Mark 9:43, 48-49 “And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire…where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ For everyone will be salted with fire.”

Matthew 22:13 “Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 8:12 “while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 25:46 “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Then there's Revelation which is the Revealed word of Jesus Christ

Revelation 14:9-11; 19:3 “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. The smoke from her goes up forever and ever.”

tayto lover

Gunney wrote: »

Jesus spoke about Hell, quite a bit in fact - He says it is eternal, unquenchable, and people go there to remain forever

Matthew 13:41-42, 49-50 “The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Mark 9:43, 48-49 “And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire…where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ For everyone will be salted with fire.”

Matthew 22:13 “Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 8:12 “while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 25:46 “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Then there's Revelation which is the Revealed word of Jesus Christ

Revelation 14:9-11; 19:3 “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. The smoke from her goes up forever and ever.”

So where did the forgiving and loving God go to then?

Gunney

tayto lover wrote: »

So where did the forgiving and loving God go to then?

He is still here. Hell is for unrepentent sinners. God is just as well as forgiving and loving. He won't force a soul into Heaven if that soul has already rejected Him.

Those that repent and follow Jesus are forgiven and He gave the power to forgive the sins of repentent sinners to His apostles and hence the Church He founded.

tayto lover

Gunney wrote: »

He is still here. Hell is for unrepentent sinners. God is just as well as forgiving and loving. He won't force a soul into Heaven if that soul has already rejected Him.

Those that repent and follow Jesus are forgiven and He gave the power to forgive the sins of repentent sinners to His apostles and hence the Church He founded.

Why though does he not just do it himself?
Why the need for others to do the forgiving?

hinault

Gunney wrote: »

He is still here. Hell is for unrepentent sinners. God is just as well as forgiving and loving. He won't force a soul into Heaven if that soul has already rejected Him.

Those that repent and follow Jesus are forgiven and He gave the power to forgive the sins of repentent sinners to His apostles and hence the Church He founded.

There is the school of thought in Catholicism which says that souls in Hell wish to be in Hell.
And that those same souls have no wish to be in Heaven.

silverharp

Gunney wrote: »

Jesus spoke about Hell, quite a bit in fact - He says it is eternal, unquenchable, and people go there to remain forever

its more complicated than that. The common word used in the original Greek writings was Gehenna which was the city dump outside Jerusalem it was a real place where dead bodies were burned etc. Also I believe though will stand to be corrected that some of the "hell" references refer to dealings with the pharisees who did have a concept of hell so it might have been a case of Jesus using their ideas against them not laying out a new theology. Also there are plenty of references in the NT which just say the opposite of heaven is just death.
And Again why didnt Paul believe in it and go with the heaven or death? it seems like for such a vital cog in the belief system Hell and Soul etc should be absolutely clear not a muddle of imagery.
Given that the eternal soul was a common belief in Greek culture its seems obvious that the ideas crept into Christianity later

hinault

Universalism

silverharp

hinault wrote: »

Universalism

Not sure what you mean and its hard to respond to a one word reply but given that hell n stuff wasn't a big deal for the Jews hell is hardly universal I'm sure there are plenty of religions that do not have the concept along christian lines , did god just built the place after Jesus? Or did he keep it a secret from the Jews just to mess with them?

j80ezgvc3p92xu

The doctrine of hell is a non negotiable part of the Christian faith. It is where unrepentant souls go and stay for eternity. Is it a real place? Yes. Is there fire there? Yes. How do we know? From Biblical descriptions and visions of the saints, for example Sister Lucia from Fatima (http://www.fatima.org/essentials/facts/hell.asp) This is also corroborated by testimonies of people who had near death experiences, went to hell and were given one more chance by the Lord to right their sins on this earth. There are hundreds of these testimonies on Youtube, not only from Catholics.

Here is a strange one which you can chose to believe or not. In the 1990s the Russians were drilling in Siberia, with one excavation going down a couple of miles into the rock. Anyways, some very strange recordings were made which some people claim are the screams of souls in torment. However, it just as well could be gases being released from between the rocks. You decide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpBUiNJh928