Golf MK5 TSI - Timing Chain Issue

paddydriver

Hello,

Close relative's 2008 1.4 TSI has gone bang. Looking like it is the known timing chain slippage issue which can mean new engine or possible rebuild.

Has been told by an indie that only the official VW service shops have tools to do this job so it's on its way there tomorrow. I am questioning this as I thought the whole monopolistic servicing thing was ended and that proper independents had access to tools required for these types of big jobs?

Doesn't seem like he has kept to servicing schedule so cannot see any goodwill whatsoever so see no benefit to going to a VW service shop and think they will save an awful lot by finding a proper VW independent.

Can anyone advise here and also recommend a good VW indie that they should contact that would be setup to do this work?

Thanks for any help. Just want to try save them being ripped off by the VW shop!

Regards
Paddy

George Dalton

Plenty of independent garages would have the tools for doing a timing chain on a TSI. Whereabouts in the country are we talking?

You'd want your head checked bringing that car to a VW dealer, the bill will be eye-watering.

paddydriver

George Dalton wrote: »

Plenty of independent garages would have the tools for doing a timing chain on a TSI. Whereabouts in the country are we talking?

You'd want your head checked bringing that car to a VW dealer, the bill will be eye-watering.

Thanks George, you were the exact person I was hoping for a response from.

The initial assessment seems to indicate some sort of piston damage, but I have heard this 2nd hand via my wife so cannot be sure. Had a quick browse tonight and can see this seems to be a well known issue with this particular TSI engine from 2008. It hasn't helped that maintenence schedule does not seem to have been followed.

He is based Dublin southside. Car is off the road now and last I heard was being towed and left off this evening at VW. Not sure when they will get a cost but like you said I fear for what it will be!

Thanks for your reply. Any suggestions as I'd be happy to point them your way.

Rgds
Paddy

George Dalton

It is highly unlikely that there is any piston damage but it is likely that there is valve damage.

VW will want to replace the complete cylinder head at a minimum and possibly even the entire engine.

A good independent will be able to repair the head.

Collibosher

I know someone who had timing chain let go on the 170bhp Golf GT, he had the engine rebuilt by Howard Engineering in Glasnevin. ( www.howardengineering.ie )

I've no connection to them, just know that the car was ok when they'd rebuilt it.

Roger Mellie Man on the Telly

They might give some goodwill towards the repair. Worth seeing what they come up with. You never know...

paddydriver

Roger Mellie Man on the Telly wrote: »

They might give some goodwill towards the repair. Worth seeing what they come up with. You never know...

Not so sure, can't see VW offering any goodwill based on the car not having followed the maintenance intervals. Haven't really asked too much on this but from what I hear car has only been serviced a few times in its 7 years and not sure these were VW services either.

Reading up on similar cases in UK etc there was not much goodwill offered at this stage into the car's life.

finalfurlong

Unprompted vw dealer got 100% labour and 70% parts goodwill for 2011 tsi with same problem last year although it was out of warranty by over a year .Bill came to 88 euro and car is perfect now as vw upgraded tensioners etc as the originals were found to be leading to chain failing.They know it is a problem and mine went at just 34 k miles.See what you can get because it will be fairly hefty otherwise

George Dalton

Any news on this?

Coincidentally we have one in at the moment with the same issue. The timing slipped on startup. We got it in yesterday and put on a new chain and did a compression test. No compression. Removed the head and all 8 intake valves are bent. There is no damage to the head itself or to the bottom end. Head is currently having new valves fitted and the car should be back on the road on Monday or Tuesday of next week.

jca

George Dalton wrote: »

Any news on this?

Coincidentally we have one in at the moment with the same issue. The timing slipped on startup. We got it in yesterday and put on a new chain and did a compression test. No compression. Removed the head and all 8 intake valves are bent. There is no damage to the head itself or to the bottom end. Head is currently having new valves fitted and the car should be back on the road on Monday or Tuesday of next week.

What sort of service history does the car have? Do regular oil changes make any difference or is it inevitable that it will eventually happen.

George Dalton

I haven't actually looked at the history of this particular car (we haven't seen it before) but judging by how dirty the engine internals are I would say it hasn't been maintained especially well.

Up until about a year ago I would have been of the opinion that if you looked after these properly then they would be ok but over the past 12 months I have seen so many of them that I have changed my mind and now I reckon they are just Trouble with a capital T!

walus

George, would you link long service intervals recommended by VW on these engines (30k km or every 2years) as a major contributor to timing chain issues? I can't see how oil would protect sufficiently the engine for that long.

paddydriver

George Dalton wrote: »

Any news on this?

Coincidentally we have one in at the moment with the same issue. The timing slipped on startup. We got it in yesterday and put on a new chain and did a compression test. No compression. Removed the head and all 8 intake valves are bent. There is no damage to the head itself or to the bottom end. Head is currently having new valves fitted and the car should be back on the road on Monday or Tuesday of next week.

Hi George, will PM you when back to laptop. It has ended up in the dealer garage but hasn't been worked on yet so I'll get them to call you. What you are saying above is similar to what I heard today in that they don't know if damage to head or bottom end (robbing your terminology there).

Thanks

George Dalton

walus wrote: »

George, would you link long service intervals recommended by VW on these engines (30k km or every 2years) as a major contributor to timing chain issues? I can't see how oil would protect sufficiently the engine for that long.

I would say that the long life intervals are definitely a contributing factor. Cars on long life servicing seem to suffer from the issue at lower mileage than cars on fixed interval servicing.

However sticking to fixed interval (15,0000km) servicing seems to only delay the inevitable with them.

jca

What actually happens to cause the chain to slip? Is it a hydraulic tensioner that can't pump up quickly enough from start up? Would getting the improved chain, tensioner etc done before failure be a good idea? I know it would be expensive but it would surely be better than getting the head done too.

George Dalton

The tensioner is spring loaded and also oil pressure driven.

What happens is that as the chain stretches the tensioner plunger gradually extends until it reaches the end of its travel and can no longer maintain tension on the chain. The chain meanwhile continues to stretch until it reaches the point where the cam sprockets can slip on the chain. I posted 2 pictures on here a few years back showing the difference in the extension of the tensioner plunger on an old chain vs new.

In most cases the MIL will come on to give warning of the problem before the timing slips. However this is not always the case.

George Dalton

Pictures in the post below:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76658867&postcount=18

jca

I suppose good clean oil would help but in the end the chain is too light for the load it has to carry. Is the replacement chain heavier construction? As you probably know I have the 122 bhp turbo only in my car are these less susceptible or am I just fooling myself. Strange that the chain doesn't start to rattle when the tensioner reaches the limit of its travel.

George Dalton

The replacement chain is apparently an improved design but there are no obvious visual differences between the old and new when comparing them side by side.

However I must say that we have never had a TSI back with chain issues after fitting the supposedly improved parts so maybe there is a difference in them.

John T Carroll

George Dalton wrote: »

I would say that the long life intervals are definitely a contributing factor. Cars on long life servicing seem to suffer from the issue at lower mileage than cars on fixed interval servicing.

However sticking to fixed interval (15,0000km) servicing seems to only delay the inevitable with them.

In view of this "to only delay the inevitable" in your very experienced opinion, I am now thinking that I will recommend to my daughter to get a new chain and tensioner in her 2008, 125 BHP 1.4 TSI Passat with 160k kms as I couldnt live with the thought of wrecking the head for want of spending a "few" euros.

jca

John T Carroll wrote: »

In view of this "to only delay the inevitable" in your very experienced opinion, I am now thinking that I will recommend to my daughter to get a new chain and tensioner in her 2008, 125 BHP 1.4 TSI Passat with 160k kms as I couldnt live with the thought of wrecking the head for want of spending a "few" euros.

I'm considering doing the same myself. A stitch in time and all that...

George Dalton

The turbo-only versions don't seem to give anything like the trouble that the twin-charged engines do.

jca

George Dalton wrote: »

The turbo-only versions don't seem to give anything like the trouble that the twin-charged engines do.

Does the chain carry extra load on the twin - charged engines? The supercharger is driven by a seperate belt I think. I've never seen a twin - charged tbh.

Special Circumstances

jca wrote: »

Does the chain carry extra load on the twin - charged engines? The supercharger is driven by a seperate belt I think. I've never seen a twin - charged tbh.

Good question. Or is it that twin charged engines are just very hard on oil and even the latest and greatest oils can't last long under the stress of cooling and lubing a supercharger and a turbo?

I wonder if the US market has this engine? They'd probably change oil every 3k miles if they did, used oil analysis etc etc.

walus

George Dalton wrote: »

The turbo-only versions don't seem to give anything like the trouble that the twin-charged engines do.

It does not mean that they are free from timing chain/tensioner problems does it? My dan drives a 2009 1.4TSI 122bhp and I'd like to establish if he needs to be prepared for these sort of engine trouble and act on it before a serious damage is done.
Thanks.

John T Carroll

The chain stretching may just possibly stem from the tensioner/oil quality?, If the tensioner, for whatever reason, isnt maintaining a constant loading on the chain, then it might lead to this problem so just maybe if the tensioner/spring is upgraded then the chain quality doesnt need upgrading.

jca

John T Carroll wrote: »

The chain stretching may just possibly stem from the tensioner/oil quality?, If the tensioner, for whatever reason, isnt maintaining a constant loading on the chain, then it might lead to this problem so just maybe if the tensioner/spring is upgraded then the chain quality doesnt need upgrading.

It's a bit like the old clutch/ flywheel debate. If you're that far into the engine to replace the tensioner you'd be as well to go the extra mile and change the chain as well. Surely at some stage vag must have fitted all cars with the new improved components.

finalfurlong

As i said earlier got the chain done last year at 34 k miles on 2011 golf.looking to trade in later in year and was wondering if vw have rectified problem in the mk 7 golf-ie the 2013 model on?If so would be tempted to go again for a tsi as lovely car otherwise.Maybe George you could tell us if any mk 7 s in for this repair.The replacement chain fitted last year seems to have done job well as it aven improved design.I hope it is standard on the 2013 golf onwards-surely VW have fitted it ?

walus

finalfurlong wrote: »

As i said earlier got the chain done last year at 34 k miles on 2011 golf.looking to trade in later in year and was wondering if vw have rectified problem in the mk 7 golf-ie the 2013 model on?If so would be tempted to go again for a tsi as lovely car otherwise.Maybe George you could tell us if any mk 7 s in for this repair.The replacement chain fitted last year seems to have done job well as it aven improved design.I hope it is standard on the 2013 golf onwards-surely VW have fitted it ?

I think that new TSIs run timing on belts.
What were the symptoms that flagged the issue with a timing chain on your golf so early?

John T Carroll

finalfurlong wrote: »

As i said earlier got the chain done last year at 34 k miles on 2011 golf.looking to trade in later in year and was wondering if vw have rectified problem in the mk 7 golf-ie the 2013 model on?If so would be tempted to go again for a tsi as lovely car otherwise.Maybe George you could tell us if any mk 7 s in for this repair.The replacement chain fitted last year seems to have done job well as it aven improved design.I hope it is standard on the 2013 golf onwards-surely VW have fitted it ?

Maybe the most prudent way to go, generally, is to think of the timing chain as akin to a timing BELT, most owners will change the timing belt at least once and in a lot of cases twice during ownership, so one could think 1 timing chain+tensioner change = 2 timing belt changes (cost wise). This might ease the pain of thinking about the cost. VAG are not the only one with these problems, a friend of mine who owns a 2007 Honda Accord had a repair bill of €5.5K when his chain slipped, he had reported a few weeks previously to the Main Dealer that he thought it was noisy, it went before they could fit him in for repairs. Even thoug the car was over 5 years old Honda met a large share of the bill, he had had the car serviced at this Main Dealers since he bought it new which no doubt helped.

finalfurlong

Walrus,alarm bells raised when engine got noticeably rattly and noise not unlike a wheel bearing gone.Its my wifes car so it was probably there for couple of days before i got to hear it.Luckily I had it booked in for a service so probably avoided damage to head,valves in getting it seen to.It would be all too easy to leave it a few days and then you would b done big time financially.With goodwill i got spared brunt but i think the orinal figure was north of 1000 for chain replacement and tensioners ,rails etc.On the other hand i ran an 08 tsi passat 125 bhp for 3 years without an ounce of trouble and had 90000 miles when selling on.John- this is similar to your daughters car and you need to weigh up cost of replacing chain pre emptively with current value of car.All i can say is that the replacement chain seems the fix and will probably give plenty of more miles, if the car suits her needs now.

kyote00

presumably they cant really quote a repair cost without opening up the engine ?

Currently suffering with a 1.4tsi ( 72k kms (2008)) - check engine light came on. Brought it to main dealer, they ran diagnositics which showed a host of timing related issues.
Then quote 4.5k for repair ..... seriously ..... 72k kms and it needs a new engine....

VW Ireland just washed their hands of it --- direct quote today was 'there are no known timing chain issues with tsi engine' and 'there has never been any recalls'

I know all manufactorers have issues - but what distinguished the good from the bad is how the deal with customers when things go wrong....

finalfurlong wrote: »

Walrus,alarm bells raised when engine got noticeably rattly and noise not unlike a wheel bearing gone.Its my wifes car so it was probably there for couple of days before i got to hear it.Luckily I had it booked in for a service so probably avoided damage to head,valves in getting it seen to.It would be all too easy to leave it a few days and then you would b done big time financially.With goodwill i got spared brunt but i think the orinal figure was north of 1000 for chain replacement and tensioners ,rails etc.On the other hand i ran an 08 tsi passat 125 bhp for 3 years without an ounce of trouble and had 90000 miles when selling on.John- this is similar to your daughters car and you need to weigh up cost of replacing chain pre emptively with current value of car.All i can say is that the replacement chain seems the fix and will probably give plenty of more miles, if the car suits her needs now.

jca

kyote00 wrote: »

presumably they cant really quote a repair cost without opening up the engine ?

Currently suffering with a 1.4tsi ( 72k kms (2008)) - check engine light came on. Brought it to main dealer, they ran diagnositics which showed a host of timing related issues.
Then quote 4.5k for repair ..... seriously ..... 72k kms and it needs a new engine....

VW Ireland just washed their hands of it --- direct quote today was 'there are no known timing chain issues with tsi engine' and 'there has never been any recalls'

I know all manufactorers have issues - but what distinguished the good from the bad is how the deal with customers when things go wrong....

They surely can give you an accurate quote if the engine is still running. Had there been piston to valve contact the engine wouldn't be still running. Another job for George Dalton me thinks. What service history is with the car? Service history is a big factor in deciding whether you'll get goodwill or not I think.

kyote00

VW service history while under warranty, and indy after that - serviced on schedule.

Car drove into dealer for diagnostic but now wont start....

They (VW Ireland) dont recognise it as a problem hence no good will

jca wrote: »

They surely can give you an accurate quote if the engine is still running. Had there been piston to valve contact the engine wouldn't be still running. Another job for George Dalton me thinks. What service history is with the car? Service history is a big factor in deciding whether you'll get goodwill or not I think.

George Dalton

So what are you going to do?

spiggotpaddy

VW Ireland just washed their hands of it --- direct quote today was 'there are no known timing chain issues with tsi engine' and 'there has never been any recalls'

So the weakest link isn't in the chain, it's in the main dealer.

kyote00

can of petrol and box of matches.......:D

Have a few quotes around the 1500-1700 mark

The concern is that once its opened up, what happens if further problems are found....also in another year or 50k miles will it fail again ?

If its a full top end rebuild and some pistons, then its probably quicker to drop a new engine in (have sourced a very low mileage BMY engine from a rear end write off)

either way, its going be very hard to trade or sell it on

kyote00

Lets be clear, we all know its horse**** from VW Ireland to manage costs....

As I understand it, it happens in 140bhp, twin charge engines from (about) 2007 to 2011 and its 'probably' due to poor manufactory of the chain or tensioners. All this can be made worse by the propensity of the TSI to use oil.
Following other threads here on and VAG uk forums its seems there have been many cases, it has been written about several times in auto bild in germany in 2013.

The legal and financial separation of dealers and VW Ireland also makes it hard for the customer ..... and easy for them to play phone tag....

spiggotpaddy wrote: »

VW Ireland just washed their hands of it --- direct quote today was 'there are no known timing chain issues with tsi engine' and 'there has never been any recalls'

So the weakest link isn't in the chain, it's in the main dealer.

jca

kyote00 wrote: »

can of petrol and box of matches.......:D

Have a few quotes around the 1500-1700 mark

The concern is that once its opened up, what happens if further problems are found....also in another year or 50k miles will it fail again ?

If its a full top end rebuild and some pistons, then its probably quicker to drop a new engine in (have sourced a very low mileage BMY engine from a rear end write off)

either way, its going be very hard to trade or sell it on

Get your own engine done, no point in replacing the engine with one of unknown history or you'll end up back at square one. If the engine is done properly it should add to its trade in value, make sure to put all receipts in the service book.

George Dalton

spiggotpaddy wrote: »

VW Ireland just washed their hands of it --- direct quote today was 'there are no known timing chain issues with tsi engine' and 'there has never been any recalls'

So the weakest link isn't in the chain, it's in the main dealer.

More like it's in VW Ireland. The dealer has to go with whatever VW Ireland say so their hands are tied to a certain extent.

jca

Do any of the Haynes manuals cover the 1.4 TSI engine in either the Golf or the Passat because the only octavia covered is the diesel or the older petrol engined models.

John T Carroll

jca wrote: »

Do any of the Haynes manuals cover the 1.4 TSI engine in either the Golf or the Passat because the only octavia covered is the diesel or the older petrol engined models.

I'd say Haynes are well behind the curve, I believe BENTLEY (USA) do outstanding manuals, they do manuals up to 2010 which might/should? cover the TSI engines.... have a google.