Insuring my first car: Car in dad's name and second named driver on his insurance?

mynameispaul

So basically I'm asking about the pros and cons of:

* Putting the car in my name, and being first-name-driver

V.S.

* Putting it in my dad's name, and being second-named-driver on his insurance?

I'm in my mid 20s, on a provisional licence (having completed my lessons) and I need my own car to get to work. (The alternative is a 5 hour commute on Dublin Bus)
I can afford to buy a reliable, albeit not very fancy car, maintain it, fuel it etc but the insurance is really stretching my budget.
I've been quoted well over €2,000 for the year to be the first named driver on my own car, as a provisional driver (and these are cheap, small, reliable, 1 liter cars like..)
My dad has suggested I put the car in his name, become a second-named-driver on his insurance, and just drive my car that way.
Being a second named driver on his insurance sounds like it would be a lot cheaper... can anyone tell me why this wouldn't work? Is it allowed? Is it insurance fraud? Would it cost just as much?
Basically, it sounds too good to be true... if it's that easy, why doesn't every young man with their own car just do that?

Stheno

It will probably not be much cheaper.

Also what you are proposing is called fronting and frowned on by insurance companies
does your father already have a car?

bazz26

Insurance companies have wised up to "fronting" so these days they will just load the highest risk driver on the policy no matter whether they are the policy holder or just a named driver.

Also another thing to note about being added as a named driver on your dad's policy is that if there is a claim made against you then it's your dad's NCB that can be impacted as it's his policy that is being claimed against. If he has another policy on his own car then this can also be impacted as he has to inform that insurance company of the claim too.

At the end of the day you will eventually have to get a policy of your own in order to build up your own NCB. This is how you prove to insurance companies that you are a low risk by having a policy of your own for x number of years without a claim. Insurance is expensive for everyone at the beginning so it's down to whether you want to suck up the high initial cost now or at a later stage. Insurance will only then start getting cheaper.

mynameispaul

Stheno wrote: »

It will probably not be much cheaper.

Also what you are proposing is called fronting and frowned on by insurance companies
does your father already have a car?

Yeah, he's already insured on his own car, and has a really big no claims bonus, so his insurance is like a couple hundred a year.

mynameispaul

bazz26 wrote: »

Insurance companies have wised up to "fronting" so these days they will just load the highest risk driver on the policy no matter whether they are the policy holder or just a named driver.

Also another thing to note about being added as a named driver on your dad's policy is that if there is a claim made against you then it's your dad's NCB that can be impacted as it's his policy that is being claimed against. If he has another policy on his own car then this can also be impacted as he has to inform that insurance company of the claim too.

At the end of the day you will eventually have to get a policy of your own in order to build up your own NCB. This is how you prove to insurance companies that you are a low risk by having a policy of your own for x number of years without a claim. Insurance is expensive for everyone at the beginning so it's down to whether you want to suck up the high initial cost now or at a later stage. Insurance will only then start getting cheaper.

Yeah the point is really that I want to suck it up at a later stage. Right now I just need to get to work.

How much of a difference would this actually make in cost though?

Say I'm getting quoted 2200 for a car in my own name, with me as first named driver

versus a car in my dad's name, that's ~300 per year now, how much would adding me to that policy up the cost?

slimjimmc

Well for a start, if you're driving while not accompanied by a full licence holder you are in breach of your learner permit conditions and many insurers take issue with that no matter if you're on your own policy or your father's.

Insurance policies generally require the policy holder to be the main driver and the person with an insurable interest in the car (e.g. legal owner or in a lease/hire purchase contract). Failing to declare this information or being dishonest could have serious consequences especially if someone claims against the policy.
Insurance companies are wise to what your father is proposing and will usually quote based on the highest risk driver (you). In addition your father is unlikely to use his NCB on more than one policy so it'll cost him more in the first place.

jimmycrackcorm

How do you propose getting to work driving on a provisional license? Is your dad going to accompany you and sit outside all day until you finish work?

Stheno

mynameispaul wrote: »

Yeah the point is really that I want to suck it up at a later stage. Right now I just need to get to work.

How much of a difference would this actually make in cost though?

Say I'm getting quoted 2200 for a car in my own name, with me as first named driver

versus a car in my dad's name, that's ~300 per year now, how much would adding me to that policy up the cost?

Probably not much less than what you've been quoted for yourself get some quotes online and see

mynameispaul

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

How do you propose getting to work driving on a provisional license? Is your dad going to accompany you and sit outside all day until you finish work?

Sure.

Noccy_Mondy

People say that insurance companies load based on the highest risk driver, and there's nothing in the difference between that and getting your own policy. I know of young lads, and family members who are setting out on permits. Taking one for example, lad on his own, has licence a year, was getting a quote of 1,900. Puts mammy as the main driver and it drops to 900. This was the end of last year. You need to be careful if this is the route you go. There's lots of clauses, such as your dad can't be the main driver of two cars etc. It differs between companies. If money is tight then going this way might be the best for a year or so. Be careful about going out driving on your own, gardai have clamped down on this, not something I'd advise. Do your test asap and then you can drive freely.

mgbgt1978

Your Father can only use his no-claims discount on one policy.
If he was to take out a 2nd policy (as you suggest) then he will have zero no-claims on that policy. He would have to start from scratch and build up a 2nd no-claims discount.

And as already mentioned what you are proposing is called 'Fronting' and Insurers will spot this one a mile away as your Father already has a policy in force.

What's the car, op?
Those quotes seem high?

I started out at 24 with a 1.4 litre Focus hatchback and my quote (third party only) was 1,309 exactly (chill.ie).

Maybe a change of car might help you out?

(I'm 26 now, so that was only two years ago). I also only had a provisional.


I have a friend, he started at the same age (I think.. Maybe 23) in a 206 and despite the smaller engine size, he was paying more than me (we lived in the same place, etc.).

Maybe the focus is looked at as low risk or something? Could be worth taking a reg plate off one for sale, and running it by your Insurance company? Just to see...?

mynameispaul

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What's the car, op?
Those quotes seem high?

I started out at 24 with a 1.4 litre Focus hatchback and my quote (third party only) was 1,309 exactly (chill.ie).

Maybe a change of car might help you out?

(I'm 26 now, so that was only two years ago). I also only had a provisional.


I have a friend, he started at the same age (I think.. Maybe 23) in a 206 and despite the smaller engine size, he was paying more than me (we lived in the same place, etc.).

Maybe the focus is looked at as low risk or something? Could be worth taking a reg plate off one for sale, and running it by your Insurance company? Just to see...?

I was quoted 2300 in a ford focus from chill.ie (I think it was a 1.2).
I'd kill for 1300! I'm also 24. No idea why it's so much.

Mycroft H

mynameispaul wrote: »

I was quoted 2300 in a ford focus from chill.ie (I think it was a 1.2).
I'd kill for 1300! I'm also 24. No idea why it's so much.

You've no driving licence, that's why. Who's going to insure you cheaply on a learner permit

amtc

Don't. You'll never build up a Ncb and hence it'll never reduce your insurance...first question is what is ncb in own name.

Mind you there are weird things with insurance. I am 41 and have my own insurance since 20. However last year it went up (no claims) so the AA suggested I added someone to my policy as a named driver, so I added my mother. She has no claims but doesn't drive my car...we're in different countries....and the price dropped to below 300 euro ...nearly 120 off. I then added my friend...who doesn't drive at all...and another 40 off! This was with Allianz.

mullingar

Breaching the T&C or a learners permit is very serious.

The bottom line is you MUST have a licenced driver with you to forfil the terms of your learner permit. A leaner permit is NOT a licence. Without a licenced driver with you, you technically have NO licence therefore NO insurance.

I have heard a few stories that some newly qualified drivers had their premiums mushroom when they qualified, simply because they are only now legally able to drive on their own.

lollsangel

Would AXA drivesafe policy be of aby use to you. Friend of mine got a fairly decent quote for her son on it.

mynameispaul

Mycroft H wrote: »

You've no driving licence, that's why. Who's going to insure you cheaply on a learner permit

Go away. He specifically said he was on a provisional as well.

corktina

your Father ought to bear in mind that if you crash, his NCB is at risk on his own car

Mycroft H

mynameispaul wrote: »

Go away. He specifically said he was on a provisional as well.

A learner permit is not a licence.

mynameispaul

mullingar wrote: »

Breaching the T&C or a learners permit is very serious.

The bottom line is you MUST have a licenced driver with you to forfil the terms of your learner permit. A leaner permit is NOT a licence. Without a licenced driver with you, you technically have NO licence therefore NO insurance.

I have heard a few stories that some newly qualified drivers had their premiums mushroom when they qualified, simply because they are only now legally able to drive on their own.

I really appreciate your reply, but the real bottom line is that I need to get to work and can't afford to lose my job.

I (and my certified driving instructor) am confident that I'm a safe driver. It's only for a month or so until I have enough road experience to confidently sit the test without just throwing away money on the fees.

corktina

I'd rather you stayed off the roads until you pass your test , i 'm not happy sharing roadspace with unqualified drivers. If you're a safe driver, then do your test,

Mycroft H

Mycroft H wrote: »

A learner permit is not a licence.

mynameispaul wrote: »

Go away. He specifically said he was on a provisional as well.

Yeah, Mycroft: It was me that said I got a €1,309 quote off chill, with no driving experience, and only a learner permit.


A friend of mine started driving there about two months ago (if even that). He's 29, I believe, and is in a 04 Punto that he picked up for about €900. His insurance is around the 2k mark, too (also on a learner permit).

I'm not sure why my quote was so competitive, to be honest, compared to what other people seem to be getting.

corktina wrote: »

I'd rather you stayed off the roads until you pass your test , i 'm not happy sharing roadspace with unqualified drivers. If you're a safe driver, then do your test,

He did. He got his learner permit. Therefore he is qualified to drive a car on the public roads.


It's mad that, although I'm not the most experienced driver, with only two years under my belt, and having only travelled about 30,000km, I've still yet to be cut off, aggressively overtaken, or drove out in front of by an L driver.

But yet all of the above have happened, numerous times, by 'qualified' drivers.

Worst I ever see is cutting out at traffic lights. Jeez, them L drivers really are a danger, on the roads. :rolleyes:

Noccy_Mondy

Oh lord KKV, what have you done! You'll have them off now :P

corktina

so you are saying L drivers on permits are better than qualified drivers?

mgbgt1978

mullingar wrote: »

Breaching the T&C or a learners permit is very serious.

The bottom line is you MUST have a licenced driver with you to forfil the terms of your learner permit. A leaner permit is NOT a licence. Without a licenced driver with you, you technically have NO licence therefore NO insurance.

I have heard a few stories that some newly qualified drivers had their premiums mushroom when they qualified, simply because they are only now legally able to drive on their own.

He would be covered by insurance. They might try to recoup the costs of any claim made on his policy but they would have to pay out initially. That's like saying that any damage caused by a drunk driver is not covered because drink driving is against the law. It's simply not the case.
This is in no way condoning what the OP is suggesting, just pointing out that his insurer would have to pay out in the event of a claim.

mynameispaul

amtc wrote: »

Don't. You'll never build up a Ncb and hence it'll never reduce your insurance...first question is what is ncb in own name.

Mind you there are weird things with insurance. I am 41 and have my own insurance since 20. However last year it went up (no claims) so the AA suggested I added someone to my policy as a named driver, so I added my mother. She has no claims but doesn't drive my car...we're in different countries....and the price dropped to below 300 euro ...nearly 120 off. I then added my friend...who doesn't drive at all...and another 40 off! This was with Allianz.

There's 0 no claims bonus in my own name. I've only driven in my driving instructors' cars.

mynameispaul

lollsangel wrote: »

Would AXA drivesafe policy be of aby use to you. Friend of mine got a fairly decent quote for her son on it.

Don know anything about AXA drive safe. Can you give me the gist?

corktina

corktina wrote: »

so you are saying L drivers on permits are better than qualified drivers?

Substitute word "better" for "safer", and I'd probably agree.


I'd also be interested to see figures (if there are any?) of number of crashes/deaths caused by learner drivers VS drivers holding a full license.

mynameispaul

mynameispaul wrote: »

Don know anything about AXA drive safe. Can you give me the gist?

The idea is that they put a 'black box' in your car that tracks you and your driving. They can see if you're speeding, have lots of sudden stops, or 'racey' take offs, etc.

The idea being that the 'safer' you are, the less you should pay.


The reality of it is they're a business out to make profits. So it'd seem to me that they'd use this information to penalise you in any possible way.

For example, where I live, there's a road that has a speed limit of 50kp/h. If you actually did this speed on the road, you'd be beeped off it and gave abuse. It's a fairly busy road and even buses travel about 60-65 on it.

If you kept with the flow of traffic, Axa would have you down as speeding every day of the week. Thus you'd be a higher risk.

They're not spending money putting a box in your car so they can lose money on insuring you. It's in their interest to get as much money out of you as they can, so they'll do whatever they can to charge as much as they can.

All you're doing is giving them an opportunity to turn around and say "well, actually, you're quite high risk! So you're new quote is..".



(that's all just in my opinion, of course. I wouldn't let an insurance company track me, no matter how cheap they were).

mynameispaul

corktina wrote: »

I'd rather you stayed off the roads until you pass your test , i 'm not happy sharing roadspace with unqualified drivers. If you're a safe driver, then do your test,

I appreciate what you're saying. Honestly I'd prefer to have another option really, but I don't.

If it makes you feel any better, I am qualified to drive on public roads - I've studied the rules of the road, I've passed the theory test, I've spent hundreds on professional driving lessons. Frankly I'd say I've taken learning to drive orders of magnitude more seriously than my peers and previous generations. I don't take the privilege lightly.

If I was even *close* to the biggest danger you faced on the roads, you would be a lot safer.

All I'm doing different is driving to work for a few months until I can (A) get an appointment for the test and (B) have the road experience to lads it confidently, which I'd need to do anyway.

So yeah, sh'up you.

Noccy_Mondy

mynameispaul wrote:

All I'm doing different is driving to work for a few months until I can (A) get an appointment for the test and (B) have the road experience to lads it confidently, which I'd need to do anyway.

Don't mean to pick on you, but you're kind of contradicting yourself. You say you've done loads of lessons and what not, but yet you admit you still need road experience to build confidence. To save yourself potential hassle, book your test asap, take it, if you fail, fair enough, at least you will have experienced it, and build from there.

mullingar

mynameispaul wrote: »

I appreciate what you're saying. Honestly I'd prefer to have another option really, but I don't.

If it makes you feel any better, I am qualified to drive on public roads - I've studied the rules of the road, I've passed the theory test, I've spent hundreds on professional driving lessons. Frankly I'd say I've taken learning to drive orders of magnitude more seriously than my peers and previous generations. I don't take the privilege lightly.

If I was even *close* to the biggest danger you faced on the roads, you would be a lot safer.

All I'm doing different is driving to work for a few months until I can (A) get an appointment for the test and (B) have the road experience to lads it confidently, which I'd need to do anyway.

So yeah, sh'up you.

No you are not.

The laws of the land are not optional to pick and choose as you wish. The laws do not care for how good or bad a driver you are as long as you are fully licensed and insured and drive an NCT'd car.

The simple facts are it is illegal to drive on your own if all you have is a learners permit. A leaner permit as stated twice above is NOT a licence.

Yes, if you do get into an accident the insurance may pay out only as a third party obligation , but they are 100% entitled to recoup the losses from you if you were proven to be at fault as you clearly breached the terms of the insurance policy as you have agreed that a fully licensed driver will always be present.

Don't be a dick.

mullingar

Just to add, you do know that if you were caught driving on your own, it's 2 points plus an €80 fine? And a further 2 points and a €60 if you are also caught with no L plates just in case your tempted not to display them?

Just 6 points and you are definitely off the road

slimjimmc

mullingar wrote: »

Just to add, you do know that if you were caught driving on your own, it's 2 points plus an €80 fine? And a further 2 points and a €60 if you are also caught with no L plates just in case your tempted not to display them?

Just 6 points and you are definitely off the road

I agree with the sentiment of your post however there are a number of inaccuracies.
You can only get one set of points if you're detected for multiple offences at the same time. The points will be for whichever offence carries the highest points. So if the OP did get caught driving unaccompanied with no L-plates he'll only get a total of 2 points and both fines (€120), not 4 points.
http://www.garda.ie/controller.aspx?page=1654
And the disqualification threshold for learners is 7 points not 6.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2014/en/act/pub/0003/sec0008.html#sec8

mullingar

mullingar wrote: »

No you are not.

It's a pity you didn't reply "Oh no you're not!", cos then my reply of "Oh yes he is!" would make this even more of a pantomime of a thread. :P


The reality of it is he passed his theory and is now allowed to legally drive on the road.

My experience of learner permit drivers crashing is fairly limited. However, I'm pretty sure "did you have a licensed driver with you" has never been asked by an insurance company, as they don't care. Whether or not you have one with you has no bearing on the accident.

Much like having no NCT doesn't automatically void your insurance (I'm fairly sure they have to demonstrate that the lack of NCT contributed to the crash, or exacerbated the damage).


It's one thing saying "I think you should have an accompanied driver", but these stories of how insurance companies will hang you out to dry are just scaremongering.

mullingar

Deleted User wrote: »

The reality of it is he passed his theory and is now allowed to legally drive on the road.

.. ONLY with a fully licensed driver with them. No licenced driver with them is an offence so NOT legal to drive, hence the penalty points

Regarding the rest of your post, you can try to justify it to yourself any way you want but don't fool yourself. Just stay legal.

mullingar

mullingar wrote: »

you can try to justify it to yourself any way you want but don't fool yourself

But I believe I am correct.

mynameispaul

mullingar wrote: »

No you are not.

The laws of the land are not optional to pick and choose as you wish. The laws do not care for how good or bad a driver you are as long as you are fully licensed and insured and drive an NCT'd car.

The simple facts are it is illegal to drive on your own if all you have is a learners permit. A leaner permit as stated twice above is NOT a licence.

Yes, if you do get into an accident the insurance may pay out only as a third party obligation , but they are 100% entitled to recoup the losses from you if you were proven to be at fault as you clearly breached the terms of the insurance policy as you have agreed that a fully licensed driver will always be present.

Don't be a dick.

Shut up you tit. You can be high and mighty 'til you're blue in the face. having a driver in the car with me to tell me which lane I should be in really doesn't have any bearing on how safely I drive.

You clearly have no interest in answering my question and are just looking for a row. Go and rant at someone else.

Mycroft H

Hey, no point in giving out about it, we've all had to do it.

Have an accident while driving unaccompanied is a good way to loose any cover. They'll pay out on 3rd party as they're obliged to but they possibly will chase you for the costs.

al22

Get a better paid job and use a taxi. I did that decision 3 years ago and it cost me less than keeping the car and no headache. :-)

JohnBoy26

Some amount of goody two shoes high horses on here :rolleyes:

amtc

mynameispaul wrote: »

There's 0 no claims bonus in my own name. I've only driven in my driving instructors' cars.

I meant when you do start asking for your own insurance that is the first q you will be asked.

amtc

Also if you look for a test date and say it's for work you get priority. Friend of mine applied last weds and was given test date by phone for tues next week.

EazyD

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Some amount of goody two shoes high horses on here :rolleyes:

It's not really though. When I was a learner over 6 years ago I adhered to the rules and always made alternative arrangements to get to work. If anything it pushed me to get the license asap. Nothing goody two shoes about that.

By all means the OP can take that risk if they so choose but should be aware of the severe risks of doing so (and not have a go at people who are trying to get this across!)

To Elland Back

Deleted User wrote: »

My experience of learner permit drivers crashing is fairly limited. However, I'm pretty sure "did you have a licensed driver with you" has never been asked by an insurance company, as they don't care. Whether or not you have one with you has no bearing on the accident.

It's one thing saying "I think you should have an accompanied driver", but these stories of how insurance companies will hang you out to dry are just scaremongering.

You couldn't be more wrong on those points. It is true that they won't chase a recovery against you if the payout is more than your assets, but they can seek a judgement against you, cancel your cover and repudiate any own damage claim.

That's a whole lot of trouble for years to come

kirving

What is the commute OP? I can't believe that you'd spend 5 hours a day on a bus, and if you did, however there aren't hundreds of other people making the same if not similar journies to you.

You might be surprised at the good will on boards if you had instead asked if "Anyone commuting from A to B daily want to make and extra €50 per week until I get my test?"

ironclaw

Kevin Irving wrote: »

What is the commute OP? I can't believe that you'd spend 5 hours a day on a bus, and if you did, however there aren't hundreds of other people making the same if not similar journies to you.

If you lived in South Dublin / Shankill / Bray and worked in CityWest / Clondalkin / Tallaght, you could easily put in a 2 hour trip either way by public transport. Dublin Bus et al is great if you want to into the city, but forget it if you want to traverse it Laughably, by car, the same journey is 25 mins on a good run.

OP, faster you are on your own policy the better. Even as a learner. As soon as you get it, go for the test and if you get the test within the year, you'll get a refund. You'll also start to build an own name no claims bonus, which is the golden ticket to reducing your premium.

Also, please don't drive on your own. Its inexcusable in my opinion.

high horse

mynameispaul wrote: »

Shut up you tit. You can be high and mighty 'til you're blue in the face. having a driver in the car with me to tell me which lane I should be in really doesn't have any bearing on how safely I drive.

You clearly have no interest in answering my question and are just looking for a row. Go and rant at someone else.

Your question has been answered multiple times it's just not the one you want to hear.

You're not licenced to drive on your own until you pass the driving test. You have 2 options : do your test and pass it or move closer to where you work.

mynameispaul

high horse wrote: »

Your question has been answered multiple times it's just not the one you want to hear.

You're not licenced to drive on your own until you pass the driving test. You have 2 options : do your test and pass it or move closer to where you work.

And I'm having a discussion with the people who answer my question.

The fact of the matter is that I don't 'only have two options', and trying to simplify the problems of others into dichotomies is dismissive and unhelpful. ("Oh, you're depressed? Welp you've two options buddy, kill yourself or try harder")

You can try to put whatever spin on it you like, someone chiming into this question with those answers is at best jumping at the opportunity to feel smug on the Internet and hear their own voice. That makes them a sap. Simple as.

Tl;dr these posts are stating the obvious, and almost certainly for the sake of hearing the sound of their own voice... So I told them to shut up. Get over it.

mynameispaul

Kevin Irving wrote: »

What is the commute OP? I can't believe that you'd spend 5 hours a day on a bus, and if you did, however there aren't hundreds of other people making the same if not similar journies to you.

You might be surprised at the good will on boards if you had instead asked if "Anyone commuting from A to B daily want to make and extra €50 per week until I get my test?"

My commute is south county Dublin to south west county Dublin.

It doesn't sound so far but the fastest way to traverse it by public transport is to go into town and back out again.

So it's 10 minute walk + 40 minute LUAS + 50 minute Bus Journey + 15 minute walk.

Which makes my commute one way just over two hours on a perfect day. When you include traffic, waiting at stops etc if usually averages out at about 5 hours.

The sick thing is that, thanks to the M50 and the placement of my office, if I left my house at the same time of day (6am) it would take me ~18 minutes to commute in a car.