Aer Lingus Fleet/Routes Discussion

LXFlyer

Tenger wrote: »

It seems to be slowly getting eroded in this era of accountancy led mgmt in aviation.

I, as an accountant, do get a bit fed up of this constant bashing of our profession.

In tough times unfortunately tough decisions have to be implemented and yes it is the accountants who drive them.

However it is equally up to all other strands of management to put their case forward where necessary. And as pointed out above surely a captain will retain overall responsibility for each individual flight from a safety perspective.

I really think a little less focussing on accountants as the bad guys is needed. Every company will have a management team to make the decisions. Every business needs an accountant to survive as much as it needs all the other departments.

Tenger

lxflyer wrote: »

I, as an accountant, do get a bit fed up of this constant bashing of our profession.

However it is equally up to all other strands of management to put their case forward where necessary. And as pointed out above surely a captain will retain overall responsibility for each individual flight from a safety perspective.

Every company will have a management team to make the decisions. Every business needs an accountant to survive as much as it needs all the other departments.

I must apologise. I was using a phrase I recently read on a US flight deck opinion piece on the changes in aviation. I fully agree that costs must be kept in check and that any airline, indeed, any airline must heed the advice of their accountants.

My opinion is based on personal experience where-in the accountants at my employer are given greater 'power' than other depts.

I fully agree with the principal that each mgnr must put forward their own business plan and it gets a yes or no depending on its own merits.

I do not see accountants in general as "bean counters", however I have had some interaction with individuals who regardless of their profession are "bean counters".

I think a good company will have a balance of accountants, strategists, frontline experience, HR, and marketing. (Am prob missing about 10 other professions too....oh well there goes my shot at an MBA!!!)

I think EI under Herr Mueller was a good example of a company being ruthless on cost rationalisation, while at the same time recognising the importance of some less tangible items such as bran image, PR efforts etc.
Most recently we see them sponsoring sporting events and (eventually) painting 2 aircraft in an IRFU livery.

Marcusm

Tenger wrote: »

I must apologise. I was using a phrase I recently read on a US flight deck opinion piece on the changes in aviation. I fully agree that costs must be kept in check and that any airline, indeed, any airline must heed the advice of their accountants.

My opinion is based on personal experience where-in the accountants at my employer are given greater 'power' than other depts.

I fully agree with the principal that each mgnr must put forward their own business plan and it gets a yes or no depending on its own merits.

I do not see accountants in general as "bean counters", however I have had some interaction with individuals who regardless of their profession are "bean counters".

I think a good company will have a balance of accountants, strategists, frontline experience, HR, and marketing. (Am prob missing about 10 other professions too....oh well there goes my shot at an MBA!!!)

I think EI under Herr Mueller was a good example of a company being ruthless on cost rationalisation, while at the same time recognising the importance of some less tangible items such as bran image, PR efforts etc.
Most recently we see them sponsoring sporting events and (eventually) painting 2 aircraft in an IRFU livery.

On this basis, IAG must be in the hands of a demigod as WW is both a commercial pilot and an accountant.

basill

An airline worth its salt will have a SMS (safety management system) that stretches across the entire organisation and requires accountability from all employees. To expect a captain to be the last line of defence is a bit rich. Accountants and middle managers are are all to happy to welcome a bonus culture and slash costs but are nowhere to be seen when something goes wrong.

LXFlyer

Tenger wrote: »

I must apologise. I was using a phrase I recently read on a US flight deck opinion piece on the changes in aviation. I fully agree that costs must be kept in check and that any airline, indeed, any airline must heed the advice of their accountants.

My opinion is based on personal experience where-in the accountants at my employer are given greater 'power' than other depts.

I fully agree with the principal that each mgnr must put forward their own business plan and it gets a yes or no depending on its own merits.

I do not see accountants in general as "bean counters", however I have had some interaction with individuals who regardless of their profession are "bean counters".

I think a good company will have a balance of accountants, strategists, frontline experience, HR, and marketing. (Am prob missing about 10 other professions too....oh well there goes my shot at an MBA!!!)

I think EI under Herr Mueller was a good example of a company being ruthless on cost rationalisation, while at the same time recognising the importance of some less tangible items such as bran image, PR efforts etc.
Most recently we see them sponsoring sporting events and (eventually) painting 2 aircraft in an IRFU livery.

I appreciate that response tenger, but I have to say I find my profession being called "bean counters" quite offensive.

Most accountants worth their salt need to understand the business too. Any business needs all of the strands to work together.

LXFlyer

basill wrote: »

An airline worth its salt will have a SMS (safety management system) that stretches across the entire organisation and requires accountability from all employees. To expect a captain to be the last line of defence is a bit rich. Accountants and middle managers are are all to happy to welcome a bonus culture and slash costs but are nowhere to be seen when something goes wrong.

So accountants go missing eh?

Really? You haven't got a clue if you think that.

I must have been dreaming all those days that I worked 15 hours for weeks on end in a company some years back to keep it afloat.

I've only ever had a salary in the jobs I've worked in (albeit an acceptable one). I find the bonus idea rather unnecessary.

A little less stereotyping wouldn't go amiss here.

Locker10a

Speaking of fleets and airline cabins, when will we see EI finally place an order to replace their Euro fleet ? Surly they have been waiting for the IAG thing to be sorted first, but what sort of order can we expect and when ? I know they have cooperated with Iberia in the past and received aircraft from them ?
But how does it all work now? Will IAG just block order planes and then distribute them among EI,BA,IB and Vueling ?

kevinandrew

IAG have already ordered over 200 Airbus narrowbody aircraft, it's been divided roughly between 100 firm orders and a further 100 options. So far most of those firm orders have been assigned to Vueling and British Airways but I haven't seen Iberia on the order books yet.

Aer Lingus aren't in a particular rush to replace their short haul fleet, it's relatively young and they have stated they'd prefer to replace aircraft on a frame by frame basis as leases expire until 2020 when the bulk of the fleet needs replacing. IAG may feel that Aer Lingus are in a good position now to start looking at an entire fleet replacement, the A320neo is the obvious choice but it'll be interesting to see if other options are looked at, the Bombardier C Series or Embraer E2 could have potential as a subfleet but there's also the likelihood of the A321neo joining as a 757 replacement.

JCX BXC

I wonder what the long haul fleet will be looking like next year.

Anyone have predictions?

billie1b

Carnacalla wrote: »

I wonder what the long haul fleet will be looking like next year.

Anyone have predictions?

Would love if BA off loaded a few of there 744's to EI before retirement, would be great to see one in the EI livery again

JCX BXC

billie1b wrote: »

Would love if BA off loaded a few of there 744's to EI before retirement, would be great to see one in the EI livery again

We would sooner see an A380 at CFN!

Would a 747 face much of a restriction in Dublin?

billie1b

Carnacalla wrote: »

We would sooner see an A380 at CFN!

Would a 747 face much of a restriction in Dublin?

Not sure, I would think it would have a small restriction but not much

Tenger

Carnacalla wrote: »

I wonder what the long haul fleet will be looking like next year.

Anyone have predictions?

Best case scenario would be 2 more A330 and 1 more B757. Might end up being 1 of each.

billie1b wrote: »

Would love if BA off loaded a few of there 744's to EI before retirement, would be great to see one in the EI livery again

Not a hope.

Carnacalla wrote: »

...
Would a 747 face much of a restriction in Dublin?

Dont see why. T2 was built with B773 and B744 taken into consideration. And DUB handles B773's on a regular basis.

billie1b

Tenger wrote: »

Not a hope.

I know, just my dreams getting the best of me

Carnacalla

Carnacalla wrote: »

We would sooner see an A380 at CFN!

Would a 747 face much of a restriction in Dublin?

Depends on the destination to be flown, full pax and cargo fine but don't think you are flying far in it, the fuel/range becomes an issue.

Anyway it's not a great time to be looking for spare A330s especially with GE engines. Not many at a loose end. This is probably the time EI will start kicking themselves a little that they rescheduled deliveries of their 350s, but you can't predict the future.

I'd say their will be someone glued to every new edition of the buy and sell looking for an A330 looking for a new owner.

Just spitballing here but it would be interesting to see BA lease EI a 787-8 or two after they take delivery of their 787-9s starting later this year and do a deal on crews etc.

Bussywussy

Possibly 2 more A330s.

L1011

Deleted User wrote: »

Just spitballing here but it would be interesting to see BA lease EI a 787-8 or two after they take delivery of their 787-9s starting later this year and do a deal on crews etc.

Unions would go insane unless it was EI crew. Training costs for a few aircraft on an entirely different manufacturer would be unrealistic.

smurfjed

Why would the 787 be any different to the ACL B757? The unions accepted that!

Plus there is still fat in the Dublin 757 schedule between it arriving back from JFK at 11 and departing at 8, not really much that could be done with it, there is time between the Toronto arriving at 5 am and departing later on as well.

Maybe a third 757 in Dublin could potentially free up enough wiggle room to add two new destinations. Toronto arrival does a few hour turn around to go to JFK freeing up the previous nights JFK arrival to fly somewhere at 6-7-8am. Third 757 could then do a late evening flight to somewhere Philly etc to link up with American, by late dep I'm talking about again 6-7-8-9pm dep like most European major airports have.

Jamie2k9

Think people have gone into overdrive in terms of fleet plans!!!

L1011

smurfjed wrote: »

Why would the 787 be any different to the ACL B757? The unions accepted that!

Fixed tern lease vs permanent replacement by a "parent" (sister) firm. It'd be seen as a beginning of replacing all self operated craft

Locker10a

L1011 wrote: »

Fixed tern lease vs permanent replacement by a "parent" (sister) firm. It'd be seen as a beginning of replacing all self operated craft

Not if it was based in Dublin with EI crew operating it !
I highly doubt BA would ever give at their 787s just like that though ! They have been desperately waiting for them! It's more likely EI may get some of the old BA 767s to tie them over !

Tenger

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Think people have gone into overdrive in terms of fleet plans!!!

Indeed. 1-3 more longhaul aircraft for S16 is the estimate.
EI had planned 1 extra airframe per year until 2020, IAG stated they would make it 2 extra per year until 2020.

L1011

Locker10a wrote: »

Not if it was based in Dublin with EI crew operating it !
I highly doubt BA would ever give at their 787s just like that though ! They have been desperately waiting for them! It's more likely EI may get some of the old BA 767s to tie them over !

That's why I said unless it was EI crew, but the training costs would be unjustifiable

Preset No.3

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Think people have gone into overdrive in terms of fleet plans!!!

The only thing that is guaranteed based on previous mergers/take overs is that nothing moves fast!

Razor44

It's more likely EI may get some of the old BA 767s to tie them over !

This is probably more realistic, should a need arise

Locker10a

L1011 wrote: »

That's why I said unless it was EI crew, but the training costs would be unjustifiable

If training was done in conjunction with BA would the cost be that unjustified? BA would have all provisions and facilities for cross training on the 78 or 76 for that matter so of the cost was shared it may not be that big of an issue! As partner airlines I dont see why EI couldn't use the BA 78 sim for example

Jamie2k9

Tenger wrote: »

Indeed. 1-3 more longhaul aircraft for S16 is the estimate.
EI had planned 1 extra airframe per year until 2020, IAG stated they would make it 2 extra per year until 2020.

Even in terms of fleet replacement they will not switch from Airbus, it's only a matter of when they sign a deal with Airbus for 320/321 NEO, 321 LR and they will have adequate long haul capacity for the next 10 years, the 9 350's will come and the youngest of the A330's will remain to make up the rest of the fleet requirements.

Jamie2k9

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Think people have gone into overdrive in terms of fleet plans!!!

I only suggested one 757 and spitballed a 787 as a conversation starter, I doubt we'll see 767's as they are probably life limited at this point, BA have been short hauling a good number of them for years so cycle time is short. Most of their 767s are coke cans now.

Really something needs to be looked at as time and air frames are short.