New licences coming - what do we need?

Trick of the Tail

The BAI are to publish requests for expressions of interest for two new FM licences in the next few months.

It's not going to be specified which type of licence, the area, coverage, content. It's up to interested parties to propose.

So what do we think the country needs?

My $0.02 is that the country needs a large-area country music station.

I wouldn't be able to listen to it, but an audience undoubtedly exists.

Next?

Declan A Walsh

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

The BAI are to publish requests for expressions of interest for two new FM licences in the next few months.

It's not going to be specified which type of licence, the area, coverage, content. It's up to interested parties to propose.

So what do we think the country needs?

My $0.02 is that the country needs a large-area country music station.


I wouldn't be able to listen to it, but an audience undoubtedly exists.

Next?

I think you are right about a large-area country music station. Maybe, it could be broken up into a few regional areas, for example north, north-east, west/north-west, south/south-west and midlands. There is definitely a strong interest in country music, especially the country-and-western variety, once you get outside the big urban areas.

How about an album-oriented station - one that plays lesser known songs by at least reasonably well-known artistes? I'm not sure if this would be a Dublin station, a nationwide station or regional station.

Other suggestions: national dance station, rock station for the south-east (Zenith Classic Rock anyone??), a multi-city funky jazz station (not trad jazz!!), regional easy-listening stations (west/north-west, south-east and south-west), opera station for Wexford, agricultural/farming news station broken into different regions (south, east/south-east, south-west, midlands, west and north-west/north) and a multi-city and adjacent areas blues-oriented station.

I was just brain-storming! Hopefully, some half-decent ideas might come out of that selection.

L1011

I can't see the advertising market holding another two stations, realistically.

Two country regionals were the only ones left on the old licencing plan that was suspended when it was clear i/4/Nova/Phantom were in trouble getting going, so I'd be surprised if its *not* those; although Nova's suggestion of going national means they must at least think there's a suitable licence being offered.

mada82

Isn't there already a country music station around 106.8?

Personally I'd like to hear a genuine underground dance station. With no requirements for news.

Hard to believe spin got the dance licence all those years ago. Sickening listening to presenters in the mid 20's and 30's trying to talk like American teenagers.

L1011

mada82 wrote: »

Isn't there already a country music station around 106.8?

Dublin only, and effectively country music-less since its licence renewal.

Trick of the Tail

No, there's no country station any more. Dublin's Country has changed its name to Sunshine and is now largely an easy-listening/AC, Q102 type thing.

As well as a Country station, I think there should be a rock/album station, like Zenith and a nostalgia/beautiful music station.

Whether the market can handle it or not is irrelevant. No one wonders about that if a new newspaper or corner shop starts up.

If the BAI allow the stations to use a smaller business model than the currents, I think they'd work.

L1011

Until the BAI is willing to let a station fail it's critically important that they don't over licence

Losty Dublin

mada82 wrote: »

Hard to believe spin got the dance licence all those years ago.

There isn't and never has been a dance licence. A youth one, yes. A dance one, no.

SavageEYE

I really think there is a strong case for a licensed 'dance' station in Dublin/Ireland. There is certainly people within a wide spanning demographic who listen to dance orientated music, which is now itself such a broad genre with roots back to the late 80's. It has never been catered for on a full time basis legally in this country and the fact that the majority of pirates that exist around the country with an evidential large following play dance music I think says it all really.

Declan A Walsh

Some more ideas for licenses: 1. An Irish-only music station - as in the musical content. This possibly could be nationwide, or maybe certain regions.

2. An "oldies" station - preferably playing old tunes not normally played anywhere else - the small and medium past hits. This could be nationwide. I think the most recent stuff it would play would be about 15 years back, but would tend to concentrate on songs going back 25 to 45 years, with the odd song going back further - maybe specialist shows to cover certain decades or music eras.

Fran1985

I think there's definitely room for a nation wide country music station. That music is massive outside of Dublin. The only problem is it's not sexy enough for the super cool agencies which are mostly Dublin based so there'll be revenue problems. This will result in the music being diluted down over time after a promising start.

The dance music station would be great, but the problem is the audience would be quite young. Young people don't have a lot of money to spend, which will put certain limits on advertisers. So the board of this station will want to make the audience a bit older after about 6 months. This will result in the music being diluted down over time after a promising start.

Nova will have a strong case to make their station nationwide which I think will be a good shout. They've worked hard with temp licences over the years since coming on air. My opinion would be that all niche stations should be nationwide. Not always viable as the cost of transmission would be enormous but it would bring a bit of variety nationwide, not just to Dublin

SavageEYE

Fran1985 wrote: »

The dance music station would be great, but the problem is the audience would be quite young. Young people don't have a lot of money to spend, which will put certain limits on advertisers. So the board of this station will want to make the audience a bit older after about 6 months. This will result in the music being diluted down over time after a promising start.

I suppose the most popular 'dance' song in history would be New Order's Blue Monday, if we go with the most popular '88 version, somebody who was 21 then would be 48 now. The genre has morphed into many things over the decades but has remained hugely popular, so the argument that the audience would be "quite young" is quite loose. If programmed well, the right people are involved and clever marketing is rolled out, I can't see how it couldn't be successful.

The dance music industry in itself is a multi-billion euro business.

AwaitYourReply

The case for an Oldies/Easy Listening/Classic Rock & Pop genre on a Regional or Multi-City Radio licence basis sounds similar to what the original incarnation of national independent station: Radio Ireland was when it first launched in 1997 (within 12 months it had to relaunch under 100-102 TODAY FM as it was not probably attracting enough listeners/advertising revenue) The original line-up at Multi-City Station: 4FM Radio (later rebranded to Classic Hits 4fm) had more variety and programming but has now focused mainly on music and it's resident shock jock phone-in radio show on weekdays at lunchtime and again the same evening!

The question is, can the formula now survive as a sustainable business model in a small country like Ireland as we now have a large number of radio stations broadcasting here and relatively easy access to many other genres via DAB/Internet/Satellite too these days!

zoobizoo

Fran1985 wrote: »

I think there's definitely room for a nation wide country music station. That music is massive outside of Dublin. The only problem is it's not sexy enough for the super cool agencies which are mostly Dublin based so there'll be revenue problems. This will result in the music being diluted down over time after a promising start.

Not the case.

The agencies will follow the listenership. If people listen to it, they'll advertise on it - in the same way that they advertise on locals.

SimonMaher

zoobizoo wrote: »

Not the case.

The agencies will follow the listenership. If people listen to it, they'll advertise on it - in the same way that they advertise on locals.

Absolutely true. There may be more and less desirable audiences but if you have enough numbers of any audience it will deliver revenue. Perhaps different advertisers and at a different rate but still revenue!

On the bigger question, rather than a whole dance around two licences should we not be looking at this the other way around? Run the expression of interest phase, see what people are interested in providing and then provide a set of technical and business model solutions to those proposals whether that be full size Multi-city FM or small scale local, shared frequency or god forbid DAB?

Given the speed that technology is developing and how quickly "radio" as we know it is changing (particularly in the younger end of the market), should we not be doing whatever we can to keep people listening to indigenous radio (through whatever platform they want) rather than doing limited 1990's style beauty contests while the crazy kids give their ears (and their cold hard cash) to Deezer or Spotify or iTunes radio?

My two cents

Simon

SEPT 23 1989

a carbon copy of Absolute Radio 90's

Harry Palmr

Album (read Classic) Rock station - everything from Abba to ZZ Top, with genre specific shows in the evening and weekend.

radioland

Abba are rock ?

Harry Palmr

No but this is the BAI we are talking about - if it were pitched as AC/DC to ZZ Top they'd throw it out immediately!

end of the road

mada82 wrote: »

Personally I'd like to hear a genuine underground dance station. With no requirements for news.

so would i, however i suspect it would end up being dumed down after a while. same happened to the stations in the uk which started off playing dance music and similar.

mada82 wrote: »

Hard to believe spin got the dance licence all those years ago. Sickening listening to presenters in the mid 20's and 30's trying to talk like American teenagers.

spin was never a "dance" licence, all be it was thought it would be. agree with the rest of that post though, spin was always like that IMO.

end of the road

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

No, there's no country station any more. Dublin's Country has changed its name to Sunshine and is now largely an easy-listening/AC, Q102 type thing.

As well as a Country station, I think there should be a rock/album station, like Zenith and a nostalgia/beautiful music station.

Whether the market can handle it or not is irrelevant. No one wonders about that if a new newspaper or corner shop starts up.

If the BAI allow the stations to use a smaller business model than the currents, I think they'd work.

exactly. let them operate on what business model works for them as long as they follow the basic rules of any business.

Sideshow Mark

They need to do away with the news/speech requirement of these smaller stations. I'd favour a nationwide country/roots station and expanding Nova's catchment area.

lertsnim

I'd take anything that gives some variety to radio in the southeast. The airwaves here have absolutely nothing for anyone over the age of 25 that wants to listen to music. Zenith Clasdic Rock when given the temporary license was a breath of fresh air

end of the road

lertsnim wrote: »

I'd take anything that gives some variety to radio in the southeast. The airwaves here have absolutely nothing for anyone over the age of 25 that wants to listen to music. Zenith Clasdic Rock when given the temporary license was a breath of fresh air

even a pirate or to would be something. we had some great ones back years ago.

ghostdancer

lertsnim wrote: »

I'd take anything that gives some variety to radio in the southeast. The airwaves here have absolutely nothing for anyone over the age of 25 that wants to listen to music. Zenith Clasdic Rock when given the temporary license was a breath of fresh air

Nova is clearly aimed at the over-25s, and I'd imagine it's pretty close to whatever "classic rock" was played on Zenith.

end of the road

ghostdancer wrote: »

Nova is clearly aimed at the over-25s, and I'd imagine it's pretty close to whatever "classic rock" was played on Zenith.

afraid not.

Losty Dublin

Declan A Walsh wrote: »

An "oldies" station - preferably playing old tunes not normally played anywhere else - the small and medium past hits. This could be nationwide. I think the most recent stuff it would play would be about 15 years back, but would tend to concentrate on songs going back 25 to 45 years, with the odd song going back further - maybe specialist shows to cover certain decades or music eras.

Lite FM and 4FM were originally licenced to do just that!

Oops69

We need a ' Moan fm ' channel to put all those negative Moany programmes like Joe duffy and liveline , moaning ireland , Ray darcy etc so they are permanently on one channel and don't pop up unexpectedly when turning the dial so normal people can get on with their lives instead of being brought down by this lot.

lertsnim

ghostdancer wrote: »

Nova is clearly aimed at the over-25s, and I'd imagine it's pretty close to whatever "classic rock" was played on Zenith.

Clearly you have never listened to Zenith Classic Rock

Kensington

end of the road wrote: »

so would i, however i suspect it would end up being dumed down after a while. same happened to the stations in the uk which started off playing dance music and similar.

"Dance music" radio just doesn't seem to work in any market to the point of being viable - for whatever reason...

Maybe it's too broad - consider there's 4 or 5 "dance" pirates on-air in Dublin at the moment, with little or no similarity between any of them in the types of music they play.
Maybe the middle of the road stuff gets played elsewhere anyway and gives a better variety being mixed with other genres for listeners?

Some of the other markets have tried the dance radio format too and it's generally not worked out...

UK - Galaxy FM, Kiss FM - both never quite got the audience needed, the former was collapsed into a national version of Capital London (think FM104), the later now much more R&B focused. By all accounts doing well under the new formats.

France - Fun Radio, NRJ - both national, playlist became very similar to the Spin format a number of years ago, more Bieber/Minaj/Swift than anything else. All the specialist stuff pushed into the late weekend/graveyard slots.

Spain - Flaix, Maxima, Loca - all but Loca switched to that same Spin-type format and have done fairly well. Loca carried on with specialist shows throughout the day but has shed listeners left, right and centre. For an almost nationwide station in a country of some 47mn people, they have less listenership than some local stations do here in Ireland!

thejuggler

How about a nationwide death notices station covering a different county every 15 mins? They are big business on local stations outside the urban areas.

A carefully selected playlist would be required. Boys II Men - End of the road, Travelling Wilburys End of the Line. The Jam Going Underground and Burn by Usher are some examples.

Presenters with solemn voices would be required.

Something tells me the BAI wouldn't go for it though

L1011

Kensington wrote: »

with little or no similarity between any of them in the types of music they play.

This is why a "dance" station won't work commercially.

People who listen to one genre often dislike other genres to the point that they'll actually switch off. You either end up with a stranded format that has little to no inter-show listenership and serious trouble building a brand, or you end up playing one genre with a tiny audience - or you end up becoming Spin.

end of the road

Kensington wrote: »

"Dance music" radio just doesn't seem to work in any market to the point of being viable - for whatever reason...

seems so. i think a licenced dance station couldn't compete now anyway as us dance music fans have lots of places to listen whether it be pirates here or oline stations or being able to listen to the uk pirates.

Kensington wrote: »

"Maybe it's too broad - consider there's 4 or 5 "dance" pirates on-air in Dublin at the moment, with little or no similarity between any of them in the types of music they play.

its broad yes, but plenty of styles not covered by the pirates here. i think the pirates in dublin are very similar in terms of output, some may play a little more underground stuff but the output is mostly house with some variety on some but really not enough if i'm honest.

Kensington wrote: »

"Maybe the middle of the road stuff gets played elsewhere anyway and gives a better variety being mixed with other genres for listeners?

you might get a little bit but mostly if you want middle of the road or commercial dance its online you need to go. the UK is a little different with the likes of capital extra playing some and kiss at a stretch.

Kensington wrote: »

"Some of the other markets have tried the dance radio format too and it's generally not worked out...

UK - Galaxy FM, Kiss FM - both never quite got the audience needed, the former was collapsed into a national version of Capital London (think FM104), the later now much more R&B focused. By all accounts doing well under the new formats.

France - Fun Radio, NRJ - both national, playlist became very similar to the Spin format a number of years ago, more Bieber/Minaj/Swift than anything else. All the specialist stuff pushed into the late weekend/graveyard slots.

Spain - Flaix, Maxima, Loca - all but Loca switched to that same Spin-type format and have done fairly well. Loca carried on with specialist shows throughout the day but has shed listeners left, right and centre. For an almost nationwide station in a country of some 47mn people, they have less listenership than some local stations do here in Ireland!

don't forget slam fm in the netherlands, once ID&T radio. flaix fm are mostly commercial dance though aren't they? thats all i seem to hear them play when i listen online. i don't mind it to be honest but flaix itself has a very tight playlist and lots of adds so not really something for long term listening but only diping in and out the odd time

Ciaran

Oops69 wrote: »

We need a ' Moan fm ' channel to put all those negative Moany programmes like Joe duffy and liveline , moaning ireland , Ray darcy etc so they are permanently on one channel and don't pop up unexpectedly when turning the dial so normal people can get on with their lives instead of being brought down by this lot.

All those shows are on Radio 1, I think you may already have got your wish.

gavindowd

SavageEYE wrote: »

I really think there is a strong case for a licensed 'dance' station in Dublin/Ireland. There is certainly people within a wide spanning demographic who listen to dance orientated music, which is now itself such a broad genre with roots back to the late 80's. It has never been catered for on a full time basis legally in this country and the fact that the majority of pirates that exist around the country with an evidential large following play dance music I think says it all really.

RTE PULSE does that job, specialist shows at the weekend. I feel the market is saturated as it currently stands, and that there isn't enough space for another two viable stations

end of the road

gavindowd wrote: »

RTE PULSE does that job, specialist shows at the weekend.

not on fm it doesn't. nor does it cover everything

gavindowd wrote: »

I feel the market is saturated as it currently stands, and that there isn't be enough space for another two viable stations

why not. there is space for a good few frequencies permitting. if they fail they fail. time for the BAI protectionist nonsense to end and stations survive on their own merrits

Losty Dublin

L1011 wrote: »

This is why a "dance" station won't work commercially.

People who listen to one genre often dislike other genres to the point that they'll actually switch off. You either end up with a stranded format that has little to no inter-show listenership and serious trouble building a brand, or you end up playing one genre with a tiny audience - or you end up becoming Spin.

This happened in the mid 90's. Sunset and Power FM were complementing each other and Club were on and then the reincarnations of Sunset that were Rhythm FM and Hot FM in late 1994/5; all stations that were playing a fairly contemporary output with some specialist shows. Add to it the pop output of Kiss FM and DLRs's on off dance output and there was a lot of out there.

Underneath the top tier were God knows how many bedroom/joke efforts who were all playing (insert dance genre here) as if they were the next Johnny Beerling. Invariably they'd have some fight or split then there'd be two more stations playing (insert dance sub genres here) more dance music, all of which sounded the same and who came with poor to middling TX and audio. Often they'd even share DJ's in spite of their supposed different genres

Declan A Walsh

I have some more ideas for licenses. Before you say it, they may not be very realistic or practical by themselves, but I think all the different suggestions in this thread could be looked at to see if there is any pattern or common thread between the various proposals. The idea is to get people thinking of the possibilities.

1. A pure soul music station. This would favour the '60s and '70s, but would play more recent stuff too. Where? A local station, perhaps - maybe Galway?

2. An all reggae station. Multi-city license perhaps?

3. An electronic music station - all the "synth"-based music from past and present. I'm not sure what the geography of this one would be - nationwide, perhaps?

As I said in the first paragraph of this post, look at these ideas in conjunction with others in the thread.

end of the road

a

Declan A Walsh wrote: »

I have some more ideas for licenses. Before you say it, they may not be very realistic or practical by themselves, but I think all the different suggestions in this thread could be looked at to see if there is any pattern or common thread between the various proposals. The idea is to get people thinking of the possibilities.

1. A pure soul music station. This would favour the '60s and '70s, but would play more recent stuff too. Where? A local station, perhaps - maybe Galway?

2. An all reggae station. Multi-city license perhaps?

3. An electronic music station - all the "synth"-based music from past and present. I'm not sure what the geography of this one would be - nationwide, perhaps?

As I said in the first paragraph of this post, look at these ideas in conjunction with others in the thread.

you could have a station playing, jazz, reggae, soul, R&B (not the **** in the charts that passes for it these days) .

lertsnim

gavindowd wrote: »

RTE PULSE does that job, specialist shows at the weekend. I feel the market is saturated as it currently stands, and that there isn't be enough space for another two viable stations

That radio station only available online or via Saorview for a lot of the country?

end of the road

lertsnim wrote: »

That radio station only available online or via Saorview for a lot of the country?

yes that one. its not bad admittedly, but its not fantastic either. plenty of much better stations online.

castle2012

I would think rte would have ambitions to put rte pulse on fm. After all its running anyway and costing rte money . It would make sense to bring to fm. If I was a betting man this may happen

SavageEYE

gavindowd wrote: »

RTE PULSE does that job, specialist shows at the weekend. I feel the market is saturated as it currently stands, and that there isn't be enough space for another two viable stations

RTE Pulse is a DAB only service, we are talking a mass appeal FM license.

LovelyFella

I've after listening to the Irish airwaves through the years, it's become more and more stiff, afraid of diversity, or any real difference in content.

It feels like all the big stations have thrown in the hat and unashamedly just go for the widest appeal possible, for the widest profit, which is fine for business, but with podcasts and internet radio, anyone interested can listen to NPR from the US, BBC Radio 4, Venice Classic Radio all the way from Italy - or any number of amazing podcasts and independant shows like Serial, This American Life, Keith and The Girl, 99% Invisible, Love and Radio~ the list is endless.

TheArtOfNoise

We need a national station that plays 1990s danceand electronic music from Madchester scene, Warp records sheifield, Drum and bass, Bleep and bass, Scanner, FSOL, Tricky, Moby, Bjork, Goldie, Orbital and classic Rave stuff etc. "Enjoy the Silence" by Depeche Mode could be the theme tune! These bands ate still making music and touring today....The listener demograhic would be aged 30+...lets do it!

castle2012

Its the one thing left the pirates have had to fill the gap over the last 20 years or so . I think it would make sense to license the dance part of the market. But young people don't want to listen to chat shows or the Irish language. (the rule would have to change )I think that would prevent a private sector going after the license

DubTony

We need a Dublin only news station. Cos I really don't give a sh!t about the fcuking ploughing championships, or how much a farmer gets for his "Yoes"

gavindowd

DubTony wrote: »

We need a Dublin only news station. Cos I really don't give a sh!t about the fcuking ploughing championships, or how much a farmer gets for his "Yoes"

That was Newstalk pre-2006 afaik

jrmb

It would be nice to have an international speech station with a mixture of original programmes and programmes from services like the BBC, DW and NPR. It could be achieved by making something like Near FM or Dublin City FM more widely available. RTÉ Choice had a nice range of programmes but it was digital-only and the automation interfered with live shows and extended editions.

gavindowd

jrmb wrote: »

It would be nice to have an international speech station with a mixture of original programmes and programmes from services like the BBC, DW and NPR. It could be achieved by making something like Near FM or Dublin City FM more widely available. RTÉ Choice had a nice range of programmes but it was digital-only and the automation interfered with live shows and extended editions.

So, are you suggesting something like a national community station to provide to a 'community of interest' as opposed to a geographical community?

jrmb

gavindowd wrote:

So, are you suggesting something like a national community station to provide to a 'community of interest' as opposed to a geographical community?

Yeah, maybe a multi-city speech/education service.