How common is "TERF" in Ireland?

Lau2976

I was curious as to whether this is common in Ireland? As in either being one or being called one by someone else.

Littlekittylou

Do you mean turf?

Lau2976

Littlekittylou wrote: »

Do you mean turf?

Sorry should have explained!

It means Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist.

I was curious as I've only really heard it once or twice in Ireland while in short periods of time have heard it several times in other countries.

bee06

Never heard of it before.

Littlekittylou

Ah I would imagine you mean feminists that are transphobic and don't include transwomen in feminism or accept them?

It's not a common position anywhere I think.

A subgroup of radical feminism characterized by transphobia, especially transmisogyny

Most feminsts I know accept trans women as women. The term might not be used but the idea it represents I think is understood. I have never really come across many feminists who don't accepts trans women as women. There are a few though and they do tend to be radical. I have never met someone with that opinion though. I have personally never met a terf. I would just call her a transphobic bigot.

Morag

It is more of a UK thing in my experience.

We have a lot more SWEF here, Sex Worker Exclusionary Feminism, including mainstream feminist NGO like the National Council for Women unfortunately.

mahamageehad

First I've ever heard of it! I also read it as Turf first, I was thinking that must be some odd pet name in Connemara or something! :P

Links234

No I've never really come across any transphobic or trans exclusionary feminists in Ireland, thankfully. You know, despite some issues, Ireland is actually a pretty decent place for trans people.

nokia69

its easy enough to see why some feminists are against the idea of transgender

it undermines a large part of the modern feminist world view, so they have to fight it

krankykitty

nokia69 wrote: »

it undermines a large part of the modern feminist world view, so they have to fight it

How so? Genuinely interested, I wasn't aware of this concept.

nokia69

krankykitty wrote: »

How so? Genuinely interested, I wasn't aware of this concept.

many modern feminists can't admit that their might be any innate gender difference between men and women, they believe that we are born as blank slates that get programmed or brainwashed by society or the patriarchy

the existence or the idea of transgender people is a threat to this core belief

IvyTheTerrible

I haven't studied feminism or anything like that so these terms are news to me, but the idea of "exclusionary" feminism doesn't sit right with me at all.

iwantmydinner

nokia69 wrote: »

many modern feminists can't admit that their might be any innate gender difference between men and women, they believe that we are born as blank slates that get programmed or brainwashed by society or the patriarchy

the existence or the idea of transgender people is a threat to this core belief

I'm really not sure any of that holds up to scrutiny.

TheBeardedLady

Links234 wrote: »

No I've never really come across any transphobic or trans exclusionary feminists in Ireland, thankfully. You know, despite some issues, Ireland is actually a pretty decent place for trans people.

Really? I'm really delighted to hear that.

nokia69

iwantmydinner wrote: »

I'm really not sure any of that holds up to scrutiny.

well then why so much hate from some feminists

how many transsexuals are there, they are so few in number its easy to ignore them and just live and let live

there is a good documentary made in Norway called brainwashing that shows feminists who no matter what evidence you show them, they just can't admit that there might be differences between men and women, its not about transsexuals but it raises the same issues for some feminists

if you watch the documentary below you will see what I mean, its not about transsexuals but it is about the same core issue

or you can read about the case of David Reimer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

the feminists who hate transsexuals would still be following the very same ideas of the doctor that destroyed Reimers life

eviltwin

With any group you will get extremes, thankfully they don't seem to be taken seriously this side of the world and haven't gotten much traction. I don't have any issue with trans women. I see them as much a woman as I am and I don't know any feminists who have issues with trans women. Any of the Irish/UK feminist groups I'm in don't care. If you look around some of the American feminist groups though, you will see this kind of thing and its horrible to see. We're all united by a common cause and it shouldn't matter how you started out in life or what you had between your legs, if you are living as a woman then you face most of the same crap those of us born female do.

iwantmydinner

nokia69 wrote: »

well then why so much hate from some feminists

how many transsexuals are there, they are so few in number its easy to ignore them and just live and let live

there is a good documentary made in Norway called brainwashing that shows feminists who no matter what evidence you show them, they just can't admit that there might be differences between men and women, its not about transsexuals but it raises the same issues for some feminists

if you watch the documentary below you will see what I mean, its not about transsexuals but it is about the same core issue

or you can read about the case of David Reimer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

the feminists who hate transsexuals would still be following the very same ideas of the doctor that destroyed Reimers life

Saying "many modern feminists" treat people this way is wildly inaccurate. And you know that.

Links234

nokia69 wrote: »

its easy enough to see why some feminists are against the idea of transgender

it undermines a large part of the modern feminist world view, so they have to fight it

No it doesn't, what you're talking about there is gender roles, being transgender is about gender identity which is best described as your sense of self in relation to your body. When feminism talks of gender as a social construct, it is gender roles they are talking about. Transgender people hate being used as a stick to beat feminists with in this way, and for what it's worth, the transphobic elements are a throwback from the 70's and not to do with modern feminism at all. This is often a claim made by some MRA types, who's hatred of transgender people is just as bad.

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

Really? I'm really delighted to hear that.

Yeah, I think I'm pretty lucky to be born where I was, I have friends in the UK who've been targetted by these transphobic feminist types, and it is downright horrible. They've had their names, pictures and personal details, any information that might be dug up including old names, and posted on some of their websites, with extremely nasty comments and accusations made about them. Even worse, in the US transgender people have even had these types go after them and contact their employers, family, schools and even cases of their medical providers. They've contacted emergency services on people before, claiming they were a suicide risk, a tactic that's not far off swatting. Imagine how terrifying that would be, to have someone you don't know calling up your work, school or your doctor, trying to **** with your life?

I know that if we did have this problem in Ireland, if there was a whiff of transphobic "feminism" on boards, I'd be out in a second. I wouldn't just be closing my account, I'd be going full on scorched earth on it, contacting admins and getting any pictures I've posted in the past removed, or any information that could be used to identify me expunged. Long story short, they're up there with gamergaters for dispicable tactics

eviltwin

Slightly off topic but Links have you ever considered doing an AMA?

Links234

eviltwin wrote: »

Slightly off topic but Links have you ever considered doing an AMA?

Yeah, I have actually, might do it at some point if I feel up to it

nokia69

iwantmydinner wrote: »

Saying "many modern feminists" treat people this way is wildly inaccurate. And you know that.

I never said they treat people any way

I said they hold the same views, which they do, its a simple fact

Links234

nokia69 wrote: »

I said they hold the same views

No they don't

nokia69

Links234 wrote: »

No they don't

yes they do

look at the documentary I posted, some of the feminists will not admit to any differences between men or women

Amica

nokia69 wrote: »

there is a good documentary made in Norway called brainwashing that shows feminists who no matter what evidence you show them, they just can't admit that there might be differences between men and women

I watched the clip you posted. I found it interesting but I didn't see those Norwegians sociologists defining themselves as feminists at any point in that film. Plus there were only...what...3 of them? Even if they HAD defined themselves as feminists, it would hardly prove that modern feminism as a whole shares that view

"I said they hold the same views, which they do, its a simple fact"
I wouldn't think it's a simple fact that modern feminists all hold the same views - more like an opinion than a fact. I thought the one thing everybody agreed upon re: feminism was that there are multiple versions and varieties of it and that people who identify as feminists have very different views, even disagreeing on what it means to be a feminist

iwantmydinner

nokia69 wrote: »

I never said they treat people any way

I said they hold the same views, which they do, its a simple fact

It's your assertion (completely unsupported) that MANY feminists are transphobic that I am getting at.

eviltwin

nokia69 wrote: »

I never said they treat people any way

I said they hold the same views, which they do, its a simple fact

I don't hold those views, no feminist I know holds those views. If you take a look at this on feminist forums you'll find very little support for these ideas.

baby and crumble

The amount of TERF's I've come across unwittingly on Twitter is unreal. It's so odd because I tweet and blog within the butch lesbian community, which has it's own experience of gender and being targeted because of our presentation (and before I go on let me reiterate that being trans is not about "presentation", I realise that. I'm just saying there are some kinds of shared experiences there) and yet some can be bizarre. I've had people tell me that I'm a disgrace to the lesbian community because I don't have an issue/ am quite passionate about advocating for trans rights. They start off sane enough, and then hit you with this vitriolic hatred that's just crazy. Some of the tweets I've had sent to me are just nuts.

nokia69

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't hold those views, no feminist I know holds those views. If you take a look at this on feminist forums you'll find very little support for these ideas.

I NEVER said that many or all feminists were transphobic, I just offered a theory as to why SOME feminists are transphobic

if you have a better theory or reason why SOME feminists are transphobic I would like to hear it

I did say that many feminists think that gender is a social construct, and yes many of them do, NOT all of them, I'm NOT claiming that all feminists are the same

baby and crumble

nokia69 wrote: »

I NEVER said that many or all feminists were transphobic, I just offered a theory as to why SOME feminists are transphobic

if you have a better theory or reason why SOME feminists are transphobic I would like to hear it

I did say that many feminists think that gender is a social construct, and yes many of them do, NOT all of them, I'm NOT claiming that all feminists are the same

Actually, most of the TERF's I have come across focus purely on physical characteristics. Their main argument is that if someone ever had a penis, they are men. Regardless of their identity, regardless of any social constructs that have influenced them etc. So to that end, your argument is flawed.