Why 30 km/h speed limits are important in the context of Jake's Legacy vigil

rp

Thinkingaboutit wrote: »

Driving at the established urban speed limit is not wrongdoing.

It may or may not be: the speed limit states the maximum speed permissible, and assumes perfect conditions, with regards to weather, driver's mental and physical state, traffic, pedestrians and so on. If you drive past a school at 50 in a 50 kph limit where the pavements are swarming with kids (as David Cameron might put it) you would not be able to stop in time if a child fell into the road, then that is clearly wrongdoing.

Iwannahurl

the groutch wrote: »

just came here to post that, and I think it's one of the dumbest ideas ever.
roads are for driving/cycling, and should be kept that way.

Roads and children existed long before cars (and bicycles).

expectationlost

Deirdre Heney on Newstalk http://www.newstalk.com/listen_back/13240/20443/31st_July_2015_-_The_Pat_Kenny_Show_Part_2/ about 2/3s in, she first raised this in feb 2012https://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/YourCouncil/CouncilMeetings/Documents/Adjourned%20Meeting%2010%2009%202012.pdf and only now going to pilot on one road

can't find the Transportation SPC minutes or agendae on the DCC website anybody else?

strandroad

galwaycyclist wrote: »

It created a situation where the Irish republic had the highest child pedestrian death rate in Western Europe, where parents feel forced to drive children everywhere, where we are facing an obesity epidemic in part because children cannot play in their normal play areas - eg residential streets.

These are all "issues"

This death rate might actually be caused by children playing in the streets being somehow normal in Ireland. In any other first world country I visited children play in the green, a shared (court)yard, in a playground, in the park or in their own gardens. Never on the road.

galwaycyclist

mhge wrote: »

This death rate might actually be caused by children playing in the streets being somehow normal in Ireland. In any other first world country I visited children play in the green, a shared (court)yard, in a playground, in the park or in their own gardens. Never on the road.

I suspect we do not have a shared understanding of the term "first world". Elsewhere in Northern Europe there are thousands of streets with speed limits that go down to walking speed and where children playing on the road have legal priority over motorised traffic.

If by "first world" you mean the UK then they also have an appalling child safety record. When we had the highest child pedestrian death rate in Western Europe they were in second place.

strandroad

galwaycyclist wrote: »

I suspect we do not have a shared understanding of the term "first world". Elsewhere in Northern Europe there are thousands of streets with speed limits that go down to walking speed and where children playing on the road have legal priority over motorised traffic.

If by "first world" you mean the UK then they also have an appalling child safety record. When we had the highest child pedestrian death rate in Western Europe they were in second place.

Continental Europe and Scandinavia mostly - I have family there, and visited plenty. I don't actually know UK that well in this aspect. Children may play on the footpath, I agree, especially in Scandinavia, but not on the actual road. They don't need to either - they have their greens or amenities for games. Why would they want to be on the road?

galwaycyclist

mhge wrote: »

Continental Europe and Scandinavia mostly - I have family there, and visited plenty. I don't actually know UK that well in this aspect. Children may play on the footpath, I agree, especially in Scandinavia, but not on the actual road. They don't need to either - they have their greens or amenities for games. Why would they want to be on the road?

Sweden
https://sv.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A5ngfartsomr%C3%A5de

The idea has been around in other countries and international law for years.

With respect maybe have a read of the rest of the thread?

Edit: Out of curiosity how do these Scandanavian children get to these "greens"? Do they have to take their chances with drivers who feel entitled to drive at 50km/h on residential roads in the presence of children?

strandroad

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Sweden
https://sv.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A5ngfartsomr%C3%A5de

The idea has been around in other countries and international law for years.

With respect maybe have a read of the rest of the thread?

I don't know how popular these are as in my years there I've never seen children on the road itself is all I'm saying.
What might be unique to UK/Ireland is the estate as a building concept, with its one entrance and the maze of roads within, affecting visibility - over there it's typically roads with road traffic.
It's one thing to discuss speed limits within estates but to advocate for children playing on the actual road is something else entirely.

galwaycyclist

mhge wrote: »

I don't know how popular these are as in my years there I've never seen children on the road itself is all I'm saying.
What might be unique to UK/Ireland is the estate as a building concept, with its one entrance and the maze of roads within, affecting visibility - over there it's typically roads with road traffic.
It's one thing to discuss speed limits within estates but to advocate for children playing on the actual road is something else entirely.

The "roads" in estates are "roads" - to state the obvious - that is what this thread is about.

Thinkingaboutit

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Much of the above is reactionary and ill-informed. 30 and 20 km/h zones are supported by evidence and best practice.

There are no "basic freedoms" associated with driving mechanically-propelled vehicles. Children were children and play was play long before roads were invented, never mind cars.

Ireland is very backward on this issue compared to advanced EU countries, and the backwardness of our politics is one major reason for this state of affairs. This is a republic, allegedly, not a haven for reactionaries with American-style Republican mindsets.

You are just being silly. No reasonable person will adhere to a 20km speed limit. A bicycle is faster than that, twice as fast nearly. This country is great for passing for passing laws and local ordinances that no one pays a blind bit of attention to, unless there's money to be made, like with parking and motorway speed cameras. 'Evidence and best practice' sounds to me like something with a circular chain of evidence or argumentation which QUANGOs specialise in making.

Children can be taught basic road sense, obviating any need for making the law look foolish by creating 20km/h speed limits.

SeanW

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Edit: Out of curiosity how do these Scandanavian children get to these "greens"? Do they have to take their chances with drivers who feel entitled to drive at 50km/h on residential roads in the presence of children?

You obviously have no clue what a "speed limit" is. It is not an OK to drive at the posted limit.

You are required at all times to drive at a safe speed, or the speed limit, whichever is lower.

I.E. speed limit is 50kph but 80kph would be safe, responsible and proportionate? Legal maximum is 50kph.

Or

Speed limit is 80kph but anything over 50kph would be irresponsible disproportionate or unsafe? Legal maximum is 50kph.

Speed limits are not required to have any relationship whatsoever to safe, responsible driving and I would estimate that 90%+ convictions for "speeding" relate to cases where not only was there no victim, but there could not possibly be one.

Likewise speed limits that are too high have zero legal effect, you are expected to ignore a "too high" limit and they'd be no defence in court if you caused an accident.

galwaycyclist

SeanW wrote: »

You obviously have no clue what a "speed limit" is. It is not an OK to drive at the posted limit.

You are required at all times to drive at a safe speed, or the speed limit, whichever is lower.

I.E. speed limit is 50kph but 80kph would be safe, responsible and proportionate? Legal maximum is 50kph.

Or

Speed limit is 80kph but anything over 50kph would be irresponsible disproportionate or unsafe? Legal maximum is 50kph.

Speed limits are not required to have any relationship whatsoever to safe, responsible driving and I would estimate that 90%+ convictions for "speeding" relate to cases where not only was there no victim, but there could not possibly be one.

Likewise speed limits that are too high have zero legal effect, you are expected to ignore a "too high" limit and they'd be no defence in court if you caused an accident.

http://www.routesnorth.com/planning-your-trip/driving-sweden/

What are the speed limits when driving in Sweden?

Generally speaking, the speed limits in Sweden are as follows. Remember this is only a guide; you should always pay attention to the signposts when driving. Note that speed limits often drop just before a busy junction or speed camera – worth remembering when you’re driving on the motorways.

Built-up areas: 30km/h – though limits of 20km/h are common too

http://driving.in-sweden.org/

Speed limits

Speed signs are round and yellow with a red outline, indicating the current speed in kilometres per hour. The ones you will see are 30, 50, 70, 90 and 110. Roads outside of built-up areas have a speed limit of 70 km/h (55 mph) unless otherwise indicated. Highways have a speed limit of 110 km/h (68 m/h)

Note that many fellow drivers will be annoyed with you if you drive at (or even worse, slightly below!) the limit on 70 or 90 km/h roads; there is not much respect for the limits on these fasters roads. However, speeding on 30 km/h roads is very much frowned upon.

If you get caught speeding, expect a fine between 1500-4000 SEK depending on how much over the limit you were. Note that there are about 1000 speed cameras spread all over Sweden; they can also get you a fine! They are, however, clearly marked with signs beforehand.

Iwannahurl

Thinkingaboutit wrote: »

You are just being silly. No reasonable person will adhere to a 20km speed limit. A bicycle is faster than that, twice as fast nearly. This country is great for passing for passing laws and local ordinances that no one pays a blind bit of attention to, unless there's money to be made, like with parking and motorway speed cameras. 'Evidence and best practice' sounds to me like something with a circular chain of evidence or argumentation which QUANGOs specialise in making.

Children can be taught basic road sense, obviating any need for making the law look foolish by creating 20km/h speed limits.

You're being the ill-informed reactionary typical of these parts.

20 km/h zones are successfully operational in various European countries. In fact some countries have applied even lower speed limits. I saw 15 km/h applied in Copenhagen, and I believe that in some places motor vehicles are restricted to walking speed, though I have not personally encountered such ultra-low limits.

Quite rightly these European countries press on and do what's desired and effective, without waiting for Irish wisdom to inform them about what's reasonable.

kazamo

rp wrote: »

It may or may not be: the speed limit states the maximum speed permissible, and assumes perfect conditions, with regards to weather, driver's mental and physical state, traffic, pedestrians and so on. If you drive past a school at 50 in a 50 kph limit where the pavements are swarming with kids (as David Cameron might put it) you would not be able to stop in time if a child fell into the road, then that is clearly wrongdoing.

Using your example, it anyone travelled at 20km past the school and couldn't stop in time, then they would also be guilty of wrongdoing.
Perhaps there should be a vehicle ban around schools at opening and closing times. Wouldn't be popular at my local school as the parents like driving but in the interest of child safety perhaps it should be tried.

expectationlost

via Deirdre Heney

April 2013 then went to traffic SPC in June 2013
I attach report that was presented to SPC

The Minute from the June 2013 meeting was:

5. “Temporary Minor Street Play Orders (Bristol experiment) (report attached)

Members expressed their support for the proposal and highlighted insurance as an issue to be addressed. Cllr P. McCartan suggested that Saturday mornings/week-end times be considered also. Mr K. McGlynn, Senior Executive Engineer, Traffic Management and Control, responded to Members questions. He said that an interdepartmental group will be put together to develop a brochure for the holding of events. The Chairperson said that at that stage the Committee could select streets on the north

these things take a while to progress

rp

kazamo wrote: »

Using your example, it anyone travelled at 20km past the school and couldn't stop in time, then they would also be guilty of wrongdoing.

Correct. The Rules of the Road spell this out quite explicitly:

RSA wrote:

A vehicle must not be driven at a speed exceeding that which will enable its driver to bring it to a halt within a distance the driver can see to be clear.
As a driver, you must always be aware of your speed and judge the appropriate speed for your vehicle, taking into account:

• driving conditions,
• other users of the road,
• current weather conditions,
• all possible hazards, and
• speed limits.

Other users of the road include motor-cyclists, cyclists, pedestrians, school children, animals and all others you as a driver should anticipate will or may be on the road.

kazamo

rp wrote: »

Correct. The Rules of the Road spell this out quite explicitly:

Yes it does make it clear
will enable its driver to bring it to a halt within a distance the driver can see to be clear

So if driving at 20km per hour and an adult or child on the footpath steps out onto the road without looking or falls out onto the road 10 feet in front of my car when the rest of the road is clear......if there is a collision, that is an accident, nothing more.

I would welcome the 20km speed limits in housing estates and outside of schools and would also like to see double yellow lines on public roads outside schools. And for it to be enforced.
If we are serious about child safety then put in all measures that help that and not just blame the 3rd party driving past the school for all incidents.....creating a bottleneck with abandoned cars outside schools doesn't help either.

rp

kazamo wrote: »

Yes it does make it clear
will enable its driver to bring it to a halt within a distance the driver can see to be clear

So if driving at 20km per hour and an adult or child on the footpath steps out onto the road without looking or falls out onto the road 10 feet in front of my car when the rest of the road is clear......if there is a collision, that is an accident, nothing more.

I disagree, read the final paragraph again: "school children, animals and all others you as a driver should anticipate will or may be on the road."
That's the way I drive, no way do I want to live with killing a kid on my conscience, just to save a couple of seconds on a journey time, and "ah sure, it was just an accident" would not make me feel any better. How about you?

kazamo

rp wrote: »

I disagree, read the final paragraph again: "school children, animals and all others you as a driver should anticipate will or may be on the road."
That's the way I drive, no way do I want to live with killing a kid on my conscience, just to save a couple of seconds on a journey time, and "ah sure, it was just an accident" would not make me feel any better. How about you?

I don't want to just avoid killing kids, I have the same attitude towards adults as well. To me life is precious regardless of age.

You are focusing on may be on the road. But if they are on a footpath facing away from you and suddenly decide to walk across the road without looking left or right and you are travelling below the speed limit, the driver still takes all the blame !

Road safety laws are based on what you or I would reasonable expect to happen. No matter how slow you are driving it will not eliminate all accidents but to place all responsibility on the driver in every situation is I believe unreasonable. Drivers are at fault in the majority of cases but if travelling at 20km per hour and a child runs out from behind a parked car or van, and the driver has 10 feet to avoid the accident, then it is unreasonable to blame the driver in that instance.

I drive at 20km in my housing estate and past all schools at opening\closing times but don't do so all day long as I would probably fall foul of another part of road safety

"While you must keep a safe distance away from the vehicle in front of you should not drive so slowly that your vehicle unnecessarily blocks other road users. If you drive too slowly, you risk frustrating other drivers, which could lead to dangerous overtaking."

SeanW

galwaycyclist wrote: »

http://www.routesnorth.com/planning-your-trip/driving-sweden/




http://driving.in-sweden.org/

Ah yes, Sweden.

Home of the worlds worst Tax-to-GDP ratios (i.e. where the government takes the most of the countrys GDP in tax every year, since at least 1975), the most ridiculous taxes and regulations on alcohol, the misandrist "Swedish model" on sex work, a drugs policy that would not be out of place in the US in the 1920s that causes twice as many drug related fatalities as the Netherlands, an immigration policy that has been a complete disaster, leading among other things to the Simon Wiesenthal Center putting a travel advisory on Malmo because it's such a hellhole, oh and lest we forget, a biased media with government "subsidies" to ensure a government friendly editorial policy, one of the most biased groups of journalists in the world.

Sweden seems to think that every problem is solved by more government, pushing more Authoritarian-Left policies. For every problem. I've felt for a very long time that Sweden really has no reason to exist except as a "lunatics running the asylum" playground for deranged leftists at home, and a deeply questionable model for anyone, anywhere else.

No surprise then that they view transport in much the same terms. I am, unfortunately, not surprised to see certain parties on here promoting yet another "Swedish model" that, surprise surprise, is also rabidly Authoritarian-Left.

galwaycyclist

SeanW wrote: »

Ah yes, Sweden.

Home of the worlds worst Tax-to-GDP ratios (i.e. where the government takes the most of the countrys GDP in tax every year, since at least 1975), the most ridiculous taxes and regulations on alcohol, the misandrist "Swedish model" on sex work, a drugs policy that would not be out of place in the US in the 1920s that causes twice as many drug related fatalities as the Netherlands, an immigration policy that has been a complete disaster, leading among other things to the Simon Wiesenthal Center putting a travel advisory on Malmo because it's such a hellhole, oh and lest we forget, a biased media with government "subsidies" to ensure a government friendly editorial policy, one of the most biased groups of journalists in the world.

Sweden seems to think that every problem is solved by more government, pushing more Authoritarian-Left policies. For every problem. I've felt for a very long time that Sweden really has no reason to exist except as a "lunatics running the asylum" playground for deranged leftists at home, and a deeply questionable model for anyone, anywhere else.

No surprise then that they view transport in much the same terms. I am, unfortunately, not surprised to see certain parties on here promoting yet another "Swedish model" that, surprise surprise, is also rabidly Authoritarian-Left.

Hmm Sweden wasn't the only example given of 30km/h zones. So anyway we can't protect our children because its the thin edge of some kind of "state control" conspiracy?

Nice

monument

Moderator warning: everybody get back on topic.

SeanW wrote: »

Ah yes, Sweden.

Home of the worlds worst Tax-to-GDP ratios (i.e. where the government takes the most of the countrys GDP in tax every year, since at least 1975), the most ridiculous taxes and regulations on alcohol, the misandrist "Swedish model" on sex work, a drugs policy that would not be out of place in the US in the 1920s that causes twice as many drug related fatalities as the Netherlands, an immigration policy that has been a complete disaster, leading among other things to the Simon Wiesenthal Center putting a travel advisory on Malmo because it's such a hellhole, oh and lest we forget, a biased media with government "subsidies" to ensure a government friendly editorial policy, one of the most biased groups of journalists in the world.

Sweden seems to think that every problem is solved by more government, pushing more Authoritarian-Left policies. For every problem. I've felt for a very long time that Sweden really has no reason to exist except as a "lunatics running the asylum" playground for deranged leftists at home, and a deeply questionable model for anyone, anywhere else.

No surprise then that they view transport in much the same terms. I am, unfortunately, not surprised to see certain parties on here promoting yet another "Swedish model" that, surprise surprise, is also rabidly Authoritarian-Left.

Moderator:

If we followed this argument we could say motorways are evil because motorways were pushed heavyly by a past Germany govenment.

Or you could say the same about rail freight because of the same govenment used that. Although the motorway argument may be stronger as rail freight was not as unique.

This is the reason why we have rules. You can deal with the topic and the facts and views of such, or you can stop posting.

-- Moderator

expectationlost

saw this tweet

Playtime.ie ‏@PlaytimeJB 16m16 minutes ago
https://twitter.com/PlaytimeJB/status/635430363989442560
In UK Town Police Clauses Act 1847 used for play streets and guess what? Still on Irish Statute book. Lets create some here @DubCityCouncil!

Power to make orders for preventing obstructions in the streets during public processions, &c.
Town Police Clauses Act, 1847
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1847/en/act/pub/0089/sec0021.html
21. The commissioners may from time to time make orders for the route to be observed by all carts, carriages, horses, and persons, and for preventing obstruction of the streets, within the limits of the special Act, in all times of public processions, rejoicings, or illuminations, and in any case when the streets are thronged or liable to be obstructed, and may also give directions to the constables for keeping order and preventing any obstruction of the streets in the neighbourhood of theatres and other places of public resort; and every wilful breach of any such order shall be deemed a separate offence against this Act, and every person committing any such offence shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding forty shillings.

which led me to

playtime.ie

In 2006 Jackie founded Playtime, an initiative which aims to raise awareness of the right to play and freedom in the city.
She successfully campaigned to have children included in Irish planning legislation.

Planning And Development (Amendment) Act 2010
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/pdf/2010/en.act.2010.0030.PDF
13.—
Section 20 of the Principal Act is amended
—
(b)(ii) in paragraph (b), by the insertion of the following sub-
paragraph after subparagraph (iii):
“(iv) that children, or groups or associations representing the interests of children,
are entitled to make submissions or observations under subparagraph (iii)."

22/06/2009 – In Defence of Street Play! http://www.playtime.ie/index.php/playtimelatest/in_defence_of_street_play

under the National Play Policy, Home Zones, whereby the use of the street by children takes precedence over the car, are promoted.

National Play Policy
http://www.dcya.gov.ie/documents/publications/NCOPlayPolicy_eng.pdf

OBJECTIVE 3: To ensure that children’s play needs are met through the development of a child-friendly environment
No. 8
Action: The National Children’s Office will liaise with local authorities and the Department of Transport to establish a pilot scheme of ‘Home Zones’, where the living environment predominates and the Department over traffic.
Responsibility:The National Children’s Office, local authorities and the Department of Transport
Target Date 2004

page 58
Play & Rights
http://www.playtime.ie/index.php/responsibility/playandrights

Under the national policy each City and County Development Board (CBD) has to include a commitment to play in their County Development Plan.

Dublin City Development Board
Play here, Play there,
Play everywhere
https://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content//Community/childrensservicesunit/Documents/DublinCityPlayPlan2012-2017.pdf

lets of words on street play Key Action
Theme 3
Create an effective city play
infrastructure and improve the design
of our play spaces

Key Action 7 Work with children and young people to support, defend and lobby for their right to play
and to be able to play within reach of their own homes.

expectationlost

expectationlost wrote: »

via Deirdre Heney

April 2013 then went to traffic SPC in June 2013
I attach report that was presented to SPC

The Minute from the June 2013 meeting was:



these things take a while to progress

forgot about attachment of detailed report , what law could be used https://docs.google.com/document/d/14lU8sAc9sokQ4rC6YIizlKI20EYLYLBo5Tl1mAakqEk/edit?usp=sharing


currently costs 2300 and need ad in paper etc to close road, or the gardaii can close it,DCC intend to develop new permit

expectationlost

RSA calls for 30km per hour speed limit in school areas
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0824/723170-news-in-brief/

interview on rte mi 4 minutes in http://podcast.rasset.ie/podcasts/audio/2015/0824/20150824_rteradio1-morningireland-roadsafety_c20833996_20834065_232_.mp3

RSA and ESB Networks have teamed up to distribute 85,500 high visibility vests FREE to every child starting school this year
http://www.rsa.ie/en/Utility/News/2015/Road-Safety-still-a-concern-as-three-children-die-on-our-roads-this-year/

how many primary schools kids walkingto school in the dark? would ppl have problem with, expecting kids to wear hi-vis, or is this just an advertising campaign for ESB?


The ‘Back to School’ campaign and other Road Safety Authority Educational Initiatives
http://www.rsa.ie/backtoschool/

Carawaystick

High viz vests don't work in the dark, Reflective vests work in the dark, as long as something lights them up.

Hi Viz works in twilight and when there's lots of skylight with a larger proportion of light being UV, to fluoresce.

SeanW

expectationlost wrote: »

RSA calls for 30km per hour speed limit in school areas
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0824/723170-news-in-brief/

Without a Variable Speed Limit regime (where the speed limit changes depending on the time of day) what exactly is the point in setting a speed limit outside a school?

Because 30kph is likely to be too fast at 8:45AM on a term weekday, but way too slow, say, at 9PM on a Sunday evening.

Again, the posted limit is only one of a pair of constraints on speed. Prevailing conditions impose a legally enforceable speed limit as well, and the maximum permissible speed is always the lower of the two.

Anyone who believes that motorists should always drive at the same speeds past schools at all times is crazy. So is trying to cover both cases with a single, non-variable limit.

This is a much better system.

expectationlost

SeanW wrote: »

Without a Variable Speed Limit regime (where the speed limit changes depending on the time of day) what exactly is the point in setting a speed limit outside a school?

Because 30kph is likely to be too fast at 8:45AM on a term weekday, but way too slow, say, at 9PM on a Sunday evening.

Again, the posted limit is only one of a pair of constraints on speed. Prevailing conditions impose a legally enforceable speed limit as well, and the maximum permissible speed is always the lower of the two.

Anyone who believes that motorists should always drive at the same speeds past schools at all times is crazy. So is trying to cover both cases with a single, non-variable limit.

This is a much better system.

Guidelines on Speed Limits

2.3 Variable or Periodic Special Speed Limits Variable and Periodic Special Speed Limits are provided for both in legislation and in the Traffic Signs Manual. These speed limits are generally intended for use on motorways, tunnels and at schools

http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/files/upload/general/Guide_Speed_Limits_Mar_2015.pdf more detail on page 62 section 7.5

wonder how much those electronic signs cost?

expectationlost

Proposed 30kph Pilot Speed Limit Bye-Laws Fingal County Council http://bit.ly/1RzZu5l gardai made submissions, about the size of the areas, and the piecemeal approach, not sure what they are getting at, national attention re having smaller or bigger areas of restriction. will have to look at the maps again, weren't there maps can't find them

btw

Engineering measures are not restricted solely to ramps, and it is not the
Council’s intention to place ramps as part of this pilot speed limit scheme.

ah they removed the bye-laws and content when the consultation was over, http://www.fingalcoco.ie/media/Speed%20Limits%20250415.pdf http://www.fingalcoco.ie/roads-and-travel/roads-bye-laws/ they could atleast archive it

summary http://www.fingalcoco.ie/media/Proposed%202015%20Fingal%20CC%20speed%20limit%20Bye-laws%20No2%2030kmh.pdf

found direct links here's the howth malahide maps
HM http://www.fingalcoco.ie/media/Howth%20Malahide%20Area%20Maps.pdf
BS http://www.fingalcoco.ie/media/Balbriggan%20Swords%20Area%20Maps.pdf
CM http://www.fingalcoco.ie/media/Castleknock%20Mulhuddart%20Area%20Maps.pdf

expectationlost

the amount councils are looking for in relation to speed restriction measures https://www.facebook.com/jakeslegacy/photos/a.773528799364347.1073741829.770043803046180/1030753680308523/?type=3 via jake's legacy, which say the amounts are very small

the email they came with https://www.facebook.com/jakeslegacy/photos/a.771651756218718.1073741828.770043803046180/1030318257018732/?type=3