Losing everything after 3 days in rental

acb

Hi ,
Looking for some advice.

We are recently home from abroad and with rents crazy in Dublin and surrounds we decided to rent a house in the countryside.

Prior to move in day we paid a months rent in advance (700EUR) and a deposit equivalent also of 700EUR, so 1400EUR in advance. When we were inspecting the property we asked the agent what would happen if we moved out before the specified contract lease date. She told us, just give us 28 days notice. She never mentioned anything about retaining our deposit. The first time we seen anything about retaining our deposit was when she left the contract for the lease with us and gave us the key.

On the Saturday we met the estate agent at the property and she gave us the key.. She also gave us two copies of the lease contract to sign - it was at this stage , it was the first time we seen the issue about the agent keeping our bond if we moved out of the premises early.
Anyway so come Monday I realised i just couldn't stay there. Tuesday morning 9 am, we rang and notified the management agent we were moving out with immediate effect and did so.

We know we made a mistake. We re just looking for other opinions regarding getting our deposit back.
We approached her and said obviously how v sorry we were and for the inconvenience caused and said we would pay 700EUR and relisting fee for Daft.

It has been a week since we have moved out and have heard v little from the agent. Our telephone calls are going to answer machine. We have emailed also.
I should add we did not sign the lease agreement and still have the two blank lease agreements here.

I know contracts can be written, oral or even implied so I guess my question is; where do we stand regarding getting our deposit back?

1,400 is a huge amount of money to lose on 3 nights accommodation.
I should also add, on the tuesday when we moved out to the next months due date for rent is 28 days.

Thanks in advance for your help.

....
I have a feeling many will reply and say we just messed them around and entitled to nothing back! but look people make mistakes and we have apologised profusely for this but still think losing 1400 is too big an amount to just write off. We are landlords to tenants for our apartment and always give people benefit of a doubt..so hoping karma might come back around to us!

_Kaiser_

I don't get it... you moved out purely because of the clause that the landlord/agent would retain your deposit if you did so before the end of the lease? No other reason?

If so then you'll find that's standard in any rental (they're actually technically allowed to charge you for the rent lost while they find a new tenant) and while most don't enforce it they are entitled to.

dubrov

No lease => No contract.
You should get your full deposit back.

I'm surprised that they let you move in without signing the lease.

It would be reasonable for them to charge you a pro-rated amount for the 3 days you stayed there though.

Michael D Not Higgins

You are entitled to the deposit back, minus the cost of the pro rata amount of time owed from the date of the start of the tenancy to the date the next tenant moves in. The landlord is obliged to minimise their loss by renting the place as soon as possible. You are also liable for the advertising costs.

acb

NO we moved out after a couple of days for a myriad of reasons! Just come back to Ireland 3 weeks ago and our head is all over the place and literally as soon as we d moved in we realised it was a massive mistake.

My understanding was deposits should be retained for damage or unpaid bills.

Michael D Not Higgins

dubrov wrote: »

No lease => No contract.
You should get your full deposit back.

I'm surprised that they let you move in without signing the lease.

It would be reasonable for them to charge you a pro-rated amount for the 3 days you stayed there though.

The lease is implied at the point they handed over cash and got the keys.

acb

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

You are entitled to the deposit back, minus the cost of the pro rata amount of time owed from the date of the start of the tenancy to the date the next tenant moves in. The landlord is obliged to minimise their loss by renting the place as soon as possible. You are also liable for the advertising costs.

That s kinda my understanding...ive been watching and don't see the house listed for rent again
She did say to my husband on the phone they had another couple interested in the house but we got it.
Anyway when we aren't receiving any contact from her its hard to know whats happening
Thank you for your reply

Michael D Not Higgins

acb wrote: »

That s kinda my understanding...ive been watching and don't see the house listed for rent again
She did say to my husband on the phone they had another couple interested in the house but we got it.
Anyway when we aren't receiving any contact from her its hard to know whats happening
Thank you for your reply

If they're intentionally delaying in order to retain your deposit, open a dispute with the PRTB.

acb

Literally i met her at the house, she gave me the key and left the contract with me to look over and sign. It was then i seen the issue about retain the deposit.

tried to ring the PRTB for advice....on hold so long i just hung up.

NinjaTruncs

It's not clear why you moved out? you simply say you just couldn't stay there. unfortunately you've paid 700 in advance for the month so there is little hope of getting that back as there is nothing stopping you from staying there for the rest of the month.

I may be wrong but I don't think they can keep your deposit, however they can deduct lost rent and re-letting fees from it. Also if you signed a fixed term lease you could be liable for the remainder of the term if the landlord is unable to let the property.

TheChizler

acb wrote: »

My understanding was deposits should be retained for damage or unpaid bills.

http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/disputes/deposit-refund

Therefore if a tenant ends a tenancy by giving a landlord less than the required period of notice, or only verbal notice, or a written notice that does not comply with the Act, it is at the landlord's discretion whether to make a deduction from the deposit in respect of the outstanding rent appropriate to the notice period to which he/she was entitled by way of a valid Notice of Termination.

cerastes

why did you move out?
Give 28 days notice,
is it fixed term or periodic
I dont believe there is any right to withold the deposit, unless there is some specific justification, but rights which are afforded cannot be written out if existenc in a contract

acb

I really feel having been in Australia and seen how rental market is regulated over there in relation to proper procedure with deposits / bonds...why are the PRTB not doing something similar here? As i said earlier, we are landlords ( though not out of choice) and I feel the PRTB are of no assistance to either landlords or renters

TheChizler

If you've paid the first month up front and only required a month's notice, then at maximum you surely would only be liable for the month you paid, plus part of the deposit for relisting the property. Also the landlord is obliged to minimise their costs and find tenants as fast as possible so you might get some of that first month back. As the lease could be implicitly signed (stop me if I'm wrong!) check the terms for an early break, it's probably 28 days as they said.

Get acquainted with the tenant section of the PRTB website! And also threshold.ie.

acb

literally 3 pm on Saturday we met her there and got the key.
Tuesday morning 9am we rang and said we were moving out. By late afternoon we were gone.

I don't have any solid reasons for moving out- as I said earlier we realised we made a big mistake.
We are only back in Ireland (a month today) after 3 years away and moved to a very rural part of the country with no one around us. I just felt completely isolated and rather than try to preserve , said just move out. So thats what we did! I can't tell you it was any one thing but a combination of lots of things...Feb wasn't helping!!

So as it stands, we are down 1,400 EUR

We just want half of that back which sounds reasonable to us (maybe we re completely in the wrong!)

acb

TheChizler wrote: »

If you've paid the first month up front and only required a month's notice, then at maximum you surely would only be liable for the month you paid, plus part of the deposit for relisting the property. Also the landlord is obliged to minimise their costs and find tenants as fast as possible so you might get some of that first month back.

thats what we suggested but have heard nothing. WE ve posted back the keys to the estate agent by registered post.

ted1

dubrov wrote: »

No lease => No contract.
You should get your full deposit back.

I'm surprised that they let you move in without signing the lease.

It would be reasonable for them to charge you a pro-rated amount for the 3 days you stayed there though.

A lease can be implied, them moving in implies that they accept it

syklops

acb wrote: »

NO we moved out after a couple of days for a myriad of reasons! Just come back to Ireland 3 weeks ago and our head is all over the place and literally as soon as we d moved in we realised it was a massive mistake.

My understanding was deposits should be retained for damage or unpaid bills.

An important life lesson I have learnt is never make rash decisions when your head is all over the place, thats for both moving in somewhere and moving out.

I really feel having been in Australia and seen how rental market is regulated over there in relation to proper procedure with deposits / bonds...why are the PRTB not doing something similar here? As i said earlier, we are landlords ( though not out of choice) and I feel the PRTB are of no assistance to either landlords or renters

If I were you, I wouldnt take your own thread off topic.

TheChizler

acb wrote: »

thats what we suggested but have heard nothing. WE ve posted back the keys to the estate agent by registered post.

They could just be being slow, the agent has to contact the landlord for things like this to get their approval. I'm waiting over two weeks now for a €1,500 deposit to be returned, unfortunately it's not uncommon!

acb

the whole thing confusing me is we didn't get to see the contract prior to moving in. it was left with us too look over...so i don't think making us liable for future loss of rent would be right

Michael D Not Higgins

acb wrote: »

the whole thing confusing me is we didn't get to see the contract prior to moving in. it was left with us too look over...so i don't think making us liable for future loss of rent would be right

The law allows the landlord to cover their loss, your viewing of the lease after handing over money was an error on your part, but ignorance of the law is not a defence.

You should get your deposit back if they manage to rent it within the month. You need to talk to the estate agent, even if it means showing up at their door.

conorhal

It's a bit confused, since you moved in you forfit the first months rent that you paid in advance but you are entitled to say for the duration that you have paid for. As for the deposit, is it explicit in the lease you signed that it is forfit if you break the lease? Smart move on the part if the landlord if its as he's not just out of pocket for the cost of re-advertizing but also for rental income until the place is let again which can take a very long time in rural areas. If it is in the lease as I think you indicated then you are unlikely to get the money back.
I'm having a hard time sympathizing to be honest, it's messing of the highest order on your part.

Greenmachine

OP did you find somewhere you preferred over this place. You can tell us we are all friend here. I imagine the deposit is lost as it is a retaining deposit, but you may only be liable, for paying rent for a partial period of first month. Have you made yourself available to let the agent inspect the property again, have you returned the keys etc.

dubrov

OP, you'll need to contact the PRTB to confirm what applies to your situation.

I really can't see how they can keep your deposit given there is no lease.
An implied lease isn't worth the paper it is printed on.

acb

Nope haven't found anywhere better- we ve moved back in with family...we re starting to consider moving back into our apartment with the 2 little kids.

We know we messed them around and do genuinely feel really awful about it but my god 1400 is just a huge amount of money. I feel absolutely sick about it.



@conorhaul...thats the thing we never signed any lease.

acb

Will the PRTB even know!!? Im wondering should i bother ringing them and being placed on hold for best part of a hour.
They have no powers.

TheChizler

acb wrote: »

the whole thing confusing me is we didn't get to see the contract prior to moving in. it was left with us too look over...so i don't think making us liable for future loss of rent would be right

There's a minimum set of rules that applies to any tenancy, regardless of the lease, and I THINK the 28 day notice thing from the start of a tenancy is part of that. Just found it here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html

Tenants can terminate a tenancy without giving a reason but must give notice.

Length of tenancy|Notice by tenant
Less than 6 months|4 weeks (28 days)
6 months to 1 year|5 weeks (35 days)
1 – 2 years|6 weeks (42 days)
2 or more years|8 weeks (56 days)

So it seems that the 28 day thing is pretty solid. The most they can hold you to is any rent owed up to 28 days from when you gave notice. And as you hadn't even seen the lease when you started the tenancy I'd cautiously hazard a guess that you wouldn't even be liable for the advertisement costs. The reason I'm cautious is because you were aware you were supposed to be entering a fixed term lease.

Best ring Threshold!

acb

ok thanks everyone. Will ring threshold now and see where we stand. Fingers crossed.


But you know i really feel just getting half back would be fine. We do feel really bad about it all, but seriously....I want to put this behind me!

Michael D Not Higgins

TheChizler wrote: »

There's a minimum set of rules that applies to any tenancy, regardless of the lease, and I THINK the 28 day notice thing from the start of a tenancy is part of that. Just found it here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html



So it seems that the 28 day thing is pretty solid. The most they can hold you to is any rent owed up to 28 days from when you gave notice. And as you hadn't even seen the lease when you started the tenancy I'd cautiously hazard that you wouldn't even be liable for the advertisement costs. The reason I'm cautious is because you were aware you were supposed to be entering a fixed term lease.

Best ring Threshold!

This may be true for periodic tenancies, but the OP is bound by a fixed term lease and the 28 days notice doesn't discharge their duties to the term. As I already said, however, the landlord is required to minimise their loss by renting it out again asap.

Captain Flaps

My understanding would be that it's entirely up to the landlord whether they hang on to your first month's rent (which they're probably entitled to do), but they have to give back your deposit. TBH I would write off the 700 but argue for the deposit if it comes to that, remember when dealing with the agent/landlord that you did mess them around and be civil even in the face of them being awkward. It's a bit early to be talking about getting the PRTB involved if you don't even know there's a problem yet!

Arbiter of Good Taste

dubrov wrote: »

No lease => No contract.

The thread on the legal forum regarding "myths" would love this.

Arbiter of Good Taste

dubrov wrote: »

OP, you'll need to contact the PRTB to confirm what applies to your situation.

I really can't see how they can keep your deposit given there is no lease.
An implied lease isn't worth the paper it is printed on.

There doesn't need to be a lease!!!!

For future reference a contract does not need to be in writing.

TheChizler

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

This may be true for periodic tenancies, but the OP is bound by a fixed term lease and the 28 days notice doesn't discharge their duties to the term. As I already said, however, the landlord is required to minimise their loss by renting it out again asap.

It depends if the lease, or part of the lease, was valid or not. As they hadn't even seen it by the time the tenancy started I can't be sure they'd have to abide by terms within it. As I said they knew before they moved in it would be a fixed term, so they might be screwed on that part.

mrbrianj

The agent has shown the property, (maybe more than once), arranged keys, provided contracts and copies. Also they probably had some dealing with Utilities, even if only readings. They receive their fee when the property is let. This could be around the €700 mark.
Who carries this cost?

The property has been rented (if only for 30 days and lived in for just 3). There may be a mortgage to pay every month.
Other interested parties may have rented elsewhere and it is never good for business if the property is re advertised immediately.

Now I know thats all the landlord problem, and so it should be. But maybe the landlord is entitled to think that your change of mind is not his problem either.

I know how hard getting the right place to live is, and I do feel sorry for you going through the ringer this time. But when you do get the right place and are sure of this you wont regret dodging this place.

cerastes

acb wrote: »

I really feel having been in Australia and seen how rental market is regulated over there in relation to proper procedure with deposits / bonds...why are the PRTB not doing something similar here? As i said earlier, we are landlords ( though not out of choice) and I feel the PRTB are of no assistance to either landlords or renters

Tbh that is of no concern

acb wrote: »

literally 3 pm on Saturday we met her there and got the key.
Tuesday morning 9am we rang and said we were moving out. By late afternoon we were gone.

I don't have any solid reasons for moving out- as I said earlier we realised we made a big mistake.
We are only back in Ireland (a month today) after 3 years away and moved to a very rural part of the country with no one around us. I just felt completely isolated and rather than try to preserve , said just move out. So thats what we did! I can't tell you it was any one thing but a combination of lots of things...Feb wasn't helping!!

So as it stands, we are down 1,400 EUR

We just want half of that back which sounds reasonable to us (maybe we re completely in the wrong!)

and after further reading, Id be pretty annoyed with this kind of attitude myself, of taking it and then moving out on the same day.
Can you clear up whether this was supposed to be a fixed term lease or not?

acb wrote: »

Nope haven't found anywhere better- we ve moved back in with family...we re starting to consider moving back into our apartment with the 2 little kids.

We know we messed them around and do genuinely feel really awful about it but my god 1400 is just a huge amount of money. I feel absolutely sick about it.

@conorhaul...thats the thing we never signed any lease.

Doesnt matter, you agreed to move in and actually did, in the least have you supplied a correct termination notice given you are so particular about the rules being followed elsewhere?

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

This may be true for periodic tenancies, but the OP is bound by a fixed term lease and the 28 days notice doesn't discharge their duties to the term. As I already said, however, the landlord is required to minimise their loss by renting it out again asap.

Has this been removed? I couldnt see this mentioned and tried to get clarification.

TheChizler wrote: »

It depends if the lease, or part of the lease, was valid or not. As they hadn't even seen it by the time the tenancy started I can't be sure they'd have to abide by terms within it. As I said they knew before they moved in it would be a fixed term, so they might be screwed on that part.

If they had a fixed term lease, they would have to abide by it.

The thing is, the agent may need to be paid again, so the landlord may get them to get someone else in and technically they might charge the landlord again, in all likelyhood they will have others that viewed, but if its remote maybe they wont.
So even in the case of a periodic lease, if the property is being let again, the landlord may have to pay a second time, If it was a fixed term lease then the OP would be liable for the full term, never mind what they feel they have lost up till this point, and it wouldnt be unreasonable to expect them to pursue, however unlikely that is.

ie
be warned and read any lease agreement before you get into it, Id say verbally agreeing to it was the contract signed and irreversible, but moving in was it sealed.

The Op may have an out if its a periodic lease but unless the agent thgrough goodwill gets another, well they did source the tenant, but its not their fault or the landlords.
my sympathy waned there after reading more.

cerastes

mrbrianj wrote: »

The agent has shown the property, (maybe more than once), arranged keys, provided contracts and copies. Also they probably had some dealing with Utilities, even if only readings. They receive their fee when the property is let. This could be around the €700 mark.
Who carries this cost?

The property has been rented (if only for 30 days and lived in for just 3). There may be a mortgage to pay every month.
Other interested parties may have rented elsewhere and it is never good for business if the property is re advertised immediately.

Now I know thats all the landlord problem, and so it should be. But maybe the landlord is entitled to think that your change of mind is not his problem either.

I know how hard getting the right place to live is, and I do feel sorry for you going through the ringer this time. But when you do get the right place and are sure of this you wont regret dodging this place.

Its the landlords problem, but its not their fault.

The OP seems to think 1400 has just vanished into thin air, the first 700 was for the rent, at the least they should have stayed for the time they paid and made use of it as that is gone anyway, maybe they should have given it a chance I think, the 700 for the deposit may suffer deductions legitimately out of proportion to the duration of stay, ie advertising the property again, changing utilities, agent fee mostly. The landlord would be justified in being unhappy with this scenario.

seamus

acb, unfortunately you seem to be a victim of your own rashness in this episode.

You handed over money without seeing contracts presumably because you felt under pressure to secure it.

Then after only 3 days you decided to move out rather than give 28 days' notice and just stick it out for those 28 days.

It would be understandable if the property was unfit for habitation or burned down after 3 days, but you seem to have just decided that you didn't like it.

Since you're staying with family it seems to me that you could have arrived back in Ireland, stayed with them while you found a place and reviewed the property and contracts before handing over any cash.

Others have already dealt with the deductions that can be made from your deposit at this stage.

There is a slight chink here around contracts in relation to agreeing to contracts that you have not seen. That is, in the past some people have managed to get out of a contract on the basis that they agreed to it without having seen it and therefore it (or part of it) was invalid.

However, in general a judge won't entertain this argument unless one was threatened/coerced into the contract, the contract contains grossly unreasonable or atypical terms ("failure to give proper notice will require 2 years rent to be paid in full"), or the contract was unreasonably withheld from you.

In any scenario, taking a case is a painful and expensive experience with no guarantee of winning. You've only lost €700 (and you might get some of that back). You'll have to chalk this one down to experience and take more care to consider the consequences before acting rashly.

dubrov

ted1 wrote:

A lease can be implied, them moving in implies that they accept it

Surely it only implies they were happy to move in.

I don't understand how a contract can be enforced when it hasn't been signed or even seen.

The_Morrigan

dubrov wrote: »

Surely it only implies they were happy to move in.

I don't understand how a contract can be enforced when it hasn't been signed or even seen.

It's a concept in contract law...acquiescence

dubrov

Thanks. I've looked it up.

I can see how moving in implies certain things but surely not a 12 month contract.

If that was the case any landlord could let short term and force a 12 month lease.

The_Morrigan

dubrov wrote: »

Thanks. I've looked it up.

I can see how moving in implies certain things but surely not a 12 month contract.

If that was the case any landlord could let short term and force a 12 month lease.

Lease was provided on the Saturday with the keys, they waited until the Tuesday to up sticks and leave. That is plenty of time to review and sign a lease agreement imo. If they had refused the keys until they had signed the lease maybe they could argue otherwise but they didn't.

Also consider a verbal agreement to rent under the terms of the advertisement. Most ads have the duration listed.

conorhal

conorhal wrote: »

It's a bit confused, since you moved in you forfit the first months rent that you paid in advance but you are entitled to say for the duration that you have paid for. As for the deposit, is it explicit in the lease you signed that it is forfit if you break the lease? Smart move on the part if the landlord if its as he's not just out of pocket for the cost of re-advertizing but also for rental income until the place is let again which can take a very long time in rural areas. If it is in the lease as I think you indicated then you are unlikely to get the money back.
I'm having a hard time sympathizing to be honest, it's messing of the highest order on your part.

sorry......Landlord is not entitled to keep the deposit. I have been both a landlord and a tenant and I can see if from both sides. However I am sympathethic as the rental costs in Dublin could push anyone into a rash decision now! This was a mistake and not done deliberately. Isolation is a killer and maybe even a month would have been too much. Check out Citizens Information website (here is quote) and also ring PRTB/Threshold for verification. (I have broken leases and got my rent back - and as a landlord I have given deposits back always unless there was damage)

Obligations of a landlord

As a landlord, you must:

• Provide a a Building Energy Rating (BER) for the property
• Register the tenancy with the PRTB
• Provide your tenant with a rent book or statement of rent paid
• Make sure that the property meets certain minimum standards
• Repair and maintain the interior of the property to the standard it was in at the start of the tenancy
• Repair and maintain the structure of the property
• Reimburse tenants for any repairs they carry out which are your responsibility
• Insure the property (if it is impossible to get insurance, or if the cost is unreasonable, this obligation doesn’t apply)
• Provide the tenant with information about any agents who are authorised to deal on your behalf (such as management companies, agencies, personal representatives)
• Ensure the tenant knows how to contact you (or your agent)
• Give tenants 28 days notice of a rent review
• Provide tenants with a valid notice of termination (in writing) if terminating the tenancy. Read more information on termination here.
• Return deposits to the tenants (unless they have not paid the rent or have damaged the dwelling)

You must also make sure that the tenants meet their obligations. Anyone who is affected by your tenants’ failure to meet their obligations can make a complaint against you to the PRTB. Read more on tenants' obligations here.

acb

U P D A T E **

Ok so thought Id be a good OP and post the outcome.

I contacted the letting agent again yday and they are going to return 700Eur and keep other 700EUR.
We re completely fine with this. Obviously loosing 700Euro hurts but we know it was our fault.

Just glad I can forget about it now and move on.

Thanks for everyones advice.:)

rightoldpickle

Good result. Costly lesson but that happens. Hope it all turns out well for you. It's tricky moving home!

cerastes

cerastes wrote: »

Its the landlords problem, but its not their fault.

The OP seems to think 1400 has just vanished into thin air, the first 700 was for the rent, at the least they should have stayed for the time they paid and made use of it as that is gone anyway, maybe they should have given it a chance I think, the 700 for the deposit may suffer deductions legitimately out of proportion to the duration of stay, ie advertising the property again, changing utilities, agent fee mostly. The landlord would be justified in being unhappy with this scenario.

acb wrote: »

U P D A T E **

Ok so thought Id be a good OP and post the outcome.

I contacted the letting agent again yday and they are going to return 700Eur and keep other 700EUR.
We re completely fine with this. Obviously loosing 700Euro hurts but we know it was our fault.

Just glad I can forget about it now and move on.

Thanks for everyones advice.:)

Id consider yourselves lucky, also, you didnt really lose the money.
You know where it went and what it was for, saying its lost suggests you had no control or hand in it being spent, you voluntarily took on a lease and voluntarily ended it..