Target pulls Ireland t-shirt without Northern Ireland off the shelves

MakeEmLaugh

Target, the US discounted retailer, recently had to pull t-shirts from their shelves after complaints from customers.

The complaints were over the image on the front, which featured the colours of the Irish tricolour superimposed over an outline Ireland. The problem people had is that the outline was not of the whole of Ireland, and excluded Northern Ireland.

I don't see why people were so upset. The vast majority of the time, when people say 'Ireland', they mean the country where Enda Kenny is Taoiseach, Michael D. Higgins is head of state, the currency is Euro and the houses of parliament are in Dublin. None of these things are true of Northern Ireland.

What's more, an enormous majority of voters recognised that Northern Ireland was part of the United Kingdom in 1998, when they endorsed changing Articles 2 and 3 of our constitution.

Like it or not, the state of which those of us who hold Irish passports are citizens does not include Northern Ireland.

SEPT 23 1989

Its Saturday night

Birneybau

Does not live up to username.

kneemos

Free the Northern Six.

donvito99

That people would buy a t-shirt with this bollocks on it is the real story here.

Karl Stein

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

the state of which those of us who hold Irish passports are citizens does not include Northern Ireland.

The right of everyone born on the island to be Irish and to be allowed travel as such by way of an Irish passport is written into the Irish constitution.

Article 2

It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland

Also, the constitutional aspiration of a UI remains codified in the Irish Constitution.

Article 3 (1)

It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island.

Littlekittylou

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

Target, the US discounted retailer, recently had to pull t-shirts from their shelves after complaints from customers.

The complaints were over the image on the front, which featured the colours of the Irish tricolour superimposed over an outline Ireland. The problem people had is that the outline was not of the whole of Ireland, and excluded Northern Ireland.

I don't see why people were so upset. The vast majority of the time, when people say 'Ireland', they mean the country where Enda Kenny is Taoiseach, Michael D. Higgins is head of state, the currency is Euro and the houses of parliament are in Dublin. None of these things are true of Northern Ireland.

What's more, an enormous majority of voters recognised that Northern Ireland was part of the United Kingdom in 1998, when they endorsed changing Articles 2 and 3 of our constitution.

Like it or not, the state of which those of us who hold Irish passports are citizens does not include Northern Ireland.

It's not geographically accurate. And Americans get their geography from T Shirts. We need to be careful with that responsibilty. It should have the island divided by a borderline with the six counties marked NI and the rest Rep of Irl it should also play the theme from harry's game and have am image of a woman crying.

December2012

Link?

Karl Stein

What a thoroughly stupid looking t-shirt. They've even used a four leaf clover instead of a shamrock.

anncoates

Legitimate, Target?


/needs agitated, squeaky Belfast accent.

Albertofrog

I'm from The North and have an Irish passport, speak Irish, work in Dublin and pay taxes to the State.
Maybe the OP wants me to hand back my passport.
Is it school holiday time yet? ��

FunLover18

The T-shirt was right though. Northern Ireland is not part of the Republic, having a map of the whole island with the tricolour blazened across it would be more offensive and also incorrect. It woould be like having a map of the British Isles with the Union Flag spread across the whole island of Ireland.

darkpagandeath

FunLover18 wrote: »

The T-shirt was right though. Northern Ireland is not part of the Republic, having a map of the whole island with the tricolour blazened across it would be more offensive and also incorrect. It woould be like having a map of the British Isles with the Union Flag spread across the whole island of Ireland.

Not really you could include the whole Island, And not put the Tricolour into the North part.

FunLover18

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Not really you could include the whole Island, And not put the Tricolour into the North part.

Fair point

conorh91

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

an enormous majority of voters recognised that Northern Ireland was part of the United Kingdom in 1998

Although a formal territorial claim was abandoned, there was no formal acknowledgement of the legitimacy of the British territorial claim. The GFA left Ireland's--and Britain's--territorial claim on NI in a limbo.

The GFA and the 1999 amendment clearly envisaged a special relationship between Ireland and NI, and both territories contain contain the Irish nation, under Irish law.

I'm no shinner but claims like yours are too simplistic.

To go so far as to claim that you 'don't understand' the disagreement is either disingenuous or totally naive.

Iwasfrozen

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Not really you could include the whole Island, And not put the Tricolour into the North part.

Have Union flag on the Northern part?

darkpagandeath

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Have Union flag on the Northern part?

No need that was not the intention of the Tshirt.

Wonder how well a NI shirt only with a big Union jack/Tricolour only on it would go down. :pac:

MakeEmLaugh

Albertofrog wrote: »

I'm from The North and have an Irish passport, speak Irish, work in Dublin and pay taxes to the State.
Maybe the OP wants me to hand back my passport.

What part of my original post gives you that suggestion?

looksee

I'd say that was an insultingly ugly teeshirt design anyway, without even considering the political or nationalistic issues.

Albertofrog

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

What part of my original post gives you that suggestion?

Like it or not, the state of which those of us who hold Irish passports are citizens does not include Northern Ireland.

That bit maybe?

shruikan2553

It is technically correct. The flag used is for the republic of Ireland, northern Ireland has its own flag.

If they had the entire island people would complain and Willie would be telling us target is the IRAs US branch. What I'm wondering is who could be bothered to complain in the first place.

I'm surprised they kept in Donegal.

kneemos

I've never seen a map of Ireland with the North removed.
Would look ridiculous and unrecognisable.

TGJD

shruikan2553 wrote: »

It is technically correct. The flag used is for the republic of Ireland, northern Ireland has its own flag.

If they had the entire island people would complain and Willie would be telling us target is the IRAs US branch. What I'm wondering is who could be bothered to complain in the first place.

I'm surprised they kept in Donegal.

I think this is the salient point here. It's a map of the republic of ireland as the flag suggests. i think people just like to feel offended. If they included the north under the tricolour it would be offensive. No one is saying people from the north are any less irish but it's a separate country on the same land mass, why is a depiction of the roi only so wrong? you can argue all day that they could include northern ireland under it's own flag but why would they have to?

Kermit.de.frog

I see Northern Ireland as Irish like the rest of Ireland. I don't differentiate. Most British don't differentiate either.

That and I have always viewed the northern state as a subversive one in any case in relation to the rest of us. One I would like to see end sooner rather than later. For now though the T-shirt is accurate.

Just me though.

Joe Doe

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Not really you could include the whole Island, And not put the Tricolour into the North part.

Yep, simply graduate/blend it into gold and then maybe (a little bit) gold-orangey-red-blue, if done at an angle it wouldn't look so bad and perhaps less offensive than the original tee.

The real (socio-politico) border (not the official) maybe only starts at around 10-20 miles in past the mapped one anyway (in most cases). Perhaps ever a lot more in some places. It only becomes really deep orange towards the more extreme NE areas, and some parts of the middle.

Karl Stein

shruikan2553 wrote: »

northern Ireland has its own flag.

Which flag is that?


Edit: I'm setting a trap for you - don't fall in.

DEFTLEFTHAND

kneemos wrote: »

I've never seen a map of Ireland with the North removed.
Would look ridiculous and unrecognisable.

In our local Lions Club den we have a map of Ireland up without the north included, it pinpoints all other town and city chapters in the Republic. That said in fairness the Northern chapters operate under direction from the British head office.

JCTO

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

I don't see why people were so upset. The vast majority of the time, when people say 'Ireland', they mean the country where Enda Kenny is Taoiseach, Michael D. Higgins is head of state, the currency is Euro and the houses of parliament are in Dublin. None of these things are true of Northern Ireland.

Take it from me as someone who lives and works in Massachusetts in the US most Americans I work around and have as friends have no idea about the difference between NI and ROI. I am forever explaining the difference and the history of Ireland to people. And I live in a state full of Irish people and people who consider themselves Irish. I have come across some who do know the difference but these are usually Americans who have traveled a lot or are just educated on European History or Geography.

MakeEmLaugh

Albertofrog wrote: »

I'm from The North and have an Irish passport, speak Irish, work in Dublin and pay taxes to the State.
Maybe the OP wants me to hand back my passport. /quote]

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

What part of my original post gives you that suggestion?

Albertofrog wrote: »

Like it or not, the state of which those of us who hold Irish passports are citizens does not include Northern Ireland.

That bit maybe?

Is anything I said inaccurate?

I made no insinuation that people from Northern Ireland should relinquish their passports. You are just looking to be offended.

Albertofrog

Is anything I said inaccurate?

I made no insinuation that people from Northern Ireland should relinquish their passports. You are just looking to be offended.[/quote]

Unfortunately for you some people from the North are Irish citizens, just as some are British citizens.
Maybe you've been in the States too long.

Jawgap

In removing this t-shirt from sale is there not a risk we create a hierarchy of t-shirts

murpho999

FunLover18 wrote: »

The T-shirt was right though. Northern Ireland is not part of the Republic, having a map of the whole island with the tricolour blazened across it would be more offensive and also incorrect. It woould be like having a map of the British Isles with the Union Flag spread across the whole island of Ireland.

I agree with your point but I really hate that British Isles term.

Now I know somebody will now point out that it's a geographical rather than a political one but I think it's a geographical term created by the British in the first place and should no longer be used. I would certainly never use it.

Cienciano

Northies upset over flags? Wow, that's a surprise

vicwatson

I wish BBC would stop showing the Republic of Ireland in maps of the "United Kingdom"

vicwatson

murpho999 wrote: »

I agree with your point but I really hate that British Isles term.

Now I know somebody will now point out that it's a geographical rather than a political one but I think it's a geographical term created by the British in the first place and should no longer be used. I would certainly never use it.

Correct, its also politically incorrect to use it. Our friends across the water still send letters to "Eire" in this day and age !!! Must be an educational thing.

The Backwards Man

Joe Doe wrote: »

Yep, simply graduate/blend it into gold and then maybe (a little bit) gold-orangey-red-blue, if done at an angle it wouldn't look so bad and perhaps less offensive than the original tee.

The real (socio-politico) border (not the official) maybe only starts at around 10-20 miles in past the mapped one anyway (in most cases). Perhaps ever a lot more in some places. It only becomes really deep orange towards the more extreme NE areas, and some parts of the middle.

I'd love to see you go to Cushendun or Ballycastle and say that.

Richard

conorh91 wrote: »

Although a formal territorial claim was abandoned, there was no formal acknowledgement of the legitimacy of the British territorial claim. The GFA left Ireland's--and Britain's--territorial claim on NI in a limbo. .

There is no British claim, NI is part of the UK. That's enshrined in the GFA until
a majority say otherwise.

But this sounds like someone who's been on the CIA world factbook and has probably done something similar for other countries. IMHO keep flags on flagpoles and not on t-shirts.

jahalpin

At least it's not as bad as the weather map on certain BBC and ITV programmes where NI is an island on its own

deise08

It just looks so alien though not having the whole island on it.

(Now I wouldn't expect the flag to be printed over the north..)

But looking at it the way they have it, it could be Afghanistan with the flag.

it just looks wrong.

ch750536

Was in a meeting this week in the UK. They were proposing opening a "Southern Ireland" office. I kept saying "Ireland" but they didn't get it.

"I pity the fools!"

MakeEmLaugh

Albertofrog wrote: »

I'm from The North and have an Irish passport, speak Irish, work in Dublin and pay taxes to the State.
Maybe the OP wants me to hand back my passport.

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

What part of my original post gives you that suggestion?

Albertofrog wrote: »

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

Like it or not, the state of which those of us who hold Irish passports are citizens does not include Northern Ireland.

That bit maybe?

Albertofrog wrote: »

Is anything I said inaccurate?

I made no insinuation that people from Northern Ireland should relinquish their passports. You are just looking to be offended.

Albertofrog wrote: »

Unfortunately for you some people from the North are Irish citizens, just as some are British citizens.
Maybe you've been in the States too long.

Okay, I'm not going to spend any more time debating with you. Trying to school me on who can and can't hold Irish citizenship is pointless. I already may know more about it than you do, and certainly don't know any less.

As for being "in the States too long", that is what would be called an ad hominem argument, if it had any basis in fact.

I live in Dublin.

shruikan2553

Karl Stein wrote: »

Which flag is that?


Edit: I'm setting a trap for you - don't fall in.

Just to confuse the people who care about flags so much I'm pretty sure that NI has its own flag that is a red cross on a white background. Not sure if it has any official usage though.

reprise

anncoates wrote: »

Legitimate, Target?


/needs agitated, squeaky Belfast accent.

Smithers... Release the shinnerbots.

Richard

ch750536 wrote: »

Was in a meeting this week in the UK. They were proposing opening a "Southern Ireland" office. I kept saying "Ireland" but they didn't get it.

"I pity the fools!"

Yes but thet were presumably saying that they wanted to open up an office in the independent part of the Island, not NI, where they may or may not already have an office.

Richard

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Just to confuse the people who care about flags so much I'm pretty sure that NI has its own flag that is a red cross on a white background. Not sure if it has any official usage though.

Well the flag you mention is the flag of England. Add the six-pointed star, red hand and crown and you've got the "Government of Northern Ireland" i.e. the flag of the former unionist Stormont Government. When that parliament was porogued, official use ended, except for some councils and sporting organisations. The only official flag is the Union flag.

Regardless of any unification or otherwise, NI needs an inclusive flag to solely represent itself. The flag you mention (or UK/Irish national flags ) don't and can't do that.

Unification is much more likely to work if lots of people in NI don't mind enough to have really strong views.

Guy:Incognito

murpho999 wrote: »

I agree with your point but I really hate that British Isles term.

Now I know somebody will now point out that it's a geographical rather than a political one but I think it's a geographical term created by the British in the first place and should no longer be used. I would certainly never use it.

Should we remove all geographical terms created by the British or just the ones with the word British in them?

jahalpin wrote: »

At least it's not as bad as the weather map on certain BBC and ITV programmes where NI is an island on its own

Never seen a map of the US with a vast sea between the 48 States and Alaska?

Sometimes they even stick it off the coast of California.

Wonder do Canadians spend they days giving out on message boards?

Dan_Solo

ch750536 wrote: »

Was in a meeting this week in the UK. They were proposing opening a "Southern Ireland" office. I kept saying "Ireland" but they didn't get it.

"I pity the fools!"

I was at a meeting once in Belfast where one of the English guys said "we should hold the next meeting in the UK". Cue 10 minute political history speech...

Dan_Solo

Isn't that a four leaf clover on the T-shirt too, not a shamrock?

DeadHand

Poll badly needs an "I'm totally indifferent to this nonsense" option.

Fratton Fred

ch750536 wrote: »

Was in a meeting this week in the UK. They were proposing opening a "Southern Ireland" office. I kept saying "Ireland" but they didn't get it.

"I pity the fools!"

Was that somewhere in England, like Edinburgh?

diomed

Republic of Cork not show on the linked image?