The government wimped out again

bpmurray

Apparently four new multi-denominational schools are to open in Ireland. Why on earth did the government go so far but missed the absolutely critical last step and make these non-denominational and thus non-religious?

AFAIK, Ireland is the only country in the EU with zero non-denominational schools. With atheists making up the second-largest belief grouping, surely that extra step would have made sense (and, of course, helped win votes).

For the vast majority in the country, the government's insistence in ignoring the instructions from the UN human-rights folk means that there is no choice but to subject their children to a discriminatory education system riddled with proselytizing bigots, admittedly only a few teachers are like that, but There's Always One.

4zn76tysfajdxp

bpmurray wrote: »

There's Always One.

There is One, and his name is Lord. Let Christ into your heart, bpmurray. You know it makes sense.

BoJack Horseman

People who don't want to baptise their child lose out.

We had our first born, in September & I assumed he would be on an equal footing with other citizens wrt access to education ....

Wrong, people of no denomination are put bottom of the pile.

So, we had little choice but to reluctantly indoctrinate him into the RCC.

Ridiculous, backward & wrong.

The Backwards Man

I'd hazard a guess that most atheists currently in Ireland were educated in Catholic schools, and it didn't make them into altar rail kissers.

It's a step.

bpmurray

The Backwards Man wrote: »

It's a step.

Nope - it's a missed opportunity!

mcbert

Abigail Broad Hemp wrote: »

There is One, and his name is Lord. Let Christ into your heart, bpmurray. You know it makes sense.

There are many, whose chief is Lord of Constellations, king of gods, spirits and demons. Let Anu into your heart Abigail Broad Hemp. You know it makes just as much sense.

old_aussie

Is it the same government that was elected to represent the voters.

I bet you vote them back in next elections

newport2

Abigail Broad Hemp wrote: »

There is One, and his name is Lord. Let Christ into your heart, bpmurray. You know it makes sense.

Ah yes, Del-Boy's favourite line in Only Fools and Horses. I'm not buying it Del

reprise

The Backwards Man wrote: »

I'd hazard a guess that most atheists currently in Ireland were educated in Catholic schools, and it didn't make them into altar rail kissers.

It's a step.

Good point.

It never ceases to amaze me how many atheist bores feel such an overwhelming and strong need to announce their self evident enlightenment to a bored rigid audience.

It's almost like having made God redundant, they assumed the position.

Saipanne

mcbert wrote: »

There are many, whose chief is Lord of Constellations, king of gods, spirits and demons. Let Anu into your heart Frada. You know it makes just as much sense.

Nonsense. Let Thors hammer strike your heart, and lift you to the feet of Odin.

You know it makes sense.

wes

reprise wrote: »

Good point.

It never ceases to amaze me how many atheist bores feel such an overwhelming and strong need to announce their self evident enlightenment to a bored rigid audience.

It's almost like having made God redundant, they assumed the position.

In fairness, access to schools on a equal basis is a perfectly reasonable thing to be pissed off about. BTW, that doesn't just effect Atheists, but every other Religous minority group.

From what I could see the op isn't having a go at Religion, but rather highlighting our education system, which is unfair to Atheists and other minority groups.

Saipanne

wes wrote: »

In fairness, access to schools on a equal basis is a perfectly reasonable thing to be pissed off about. BTW, that doesn't just effect Atheists, but every other Religous minority group.

From what I could see the op isn't having a go at Religion, but rather highlighting our education system, which is unfair to Atheists and other minority groups.

Sure isn't it better that one belief rules them all................

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

The Backwards Man

bpmurray wrote: »

Nope - it's a missed opportunity!

To do what, commit political suicide? Again?.:D

The reality is there isn't enough appetite for non denominational schools yet.

Also there's two things altar rail kissers are good at;

1) talking out of both sides of their mouths

2) voting

Ghost Buster

reprise wrote: »

Good point.

It never ceases to amaze me how many atheist bores feel such an overwhelming and strong need to announce their self evident enlightenment to a bored rigid audience.

It's almost like having made God redundant, they assumed the position.

You mean here on boards where it's relevant to the topic under duscussion to make such an announcement?
It must be what you mean cos I for one certainly dont encounter it in the real world.
Will you be taking issue with those prominently displaying ashes on their brows on ash wednesday?

bpmurray

reprise wrote: »

Good point.

It never ceases to amaze me how many atheist bores feel such an overwhelming and strong need to announce their self evident enlightenment to a bored rigid audience.

It's almost like having made God redundant, they assumed the position.

Actually, it's just that we don't want or need to hear what we construe as absurdities being pushed onto us and/or our children. There's no real issue with pushing our ideas - we just want other to stop pushing theirs onto us. Treating children as pariahs, sending them out of the class (that's traditionally a punishment), ridiculing them and feeding the bullies with ammunition, and so on, is definitely not the way to run an educational system.

So wake up and realise your view is actually a refusal to see discrimination of a sizable minority by a bored rigid majority.

reprise

wes wrote: »

In fairness, access to schools on a equal basis is a perfectly reasonable thing to be pissed off about. BTW, that doesn't just effect Atheists, but every other Religous minority group.

From what I could see the op isn't having a go at Religion, but rather highlighting our education system, which is unfair to Atheists and other minority groups.

I appreciate your point, I send my children to rc to establish some sort of a moral compass. They are free to reject it when they are old enough and it in no way impedes their ability or my wish that they see the imperfections or the alternatives.

kylith

The Backwards Man wrote: »

I'd hazard a guess that most atheists currently in Ireland were educated in Catholic schools, and it didn't make them into altar rail kissers.

It's a step.

I can tell you from experience that to be an atheist in a Catholic school is not a fun thing. Being told that you're going to hell. Clashes with teachers. Being forced to stand, sit, and kneel and proclaim the magnificence of something you don't believe in is an embittering experience.

Get religion out of schools. If parents want to raise their children religious then let them do it themselves rather than outsourcing it to the people whose time would be better spent teaching those children to read and add up.

Saipanne

reprise wrote: »

I send my children to rc to establish some sort of a moral compass.

You can't do that? **** me...

reprise

bpmurray wrote: »

Actually, it's just that we don't want or need to hear what we construe as absurdities being pushed onto us and/or our children. There's no real issue with pushing our ideas - we just want other to stop pushing theirs onto us. Treating children as pariahs, sending them out of the class (that's traditionally a punishment), ridiculing them and feeding the bullies with ammunition, and so on, is definitely not the way to run an educational system.

So wake up and realise your view is actually a refusal to see discrimination of a sizable minority by a bored rigid majority.

I honestly do not know what sort of school you went to, it resembles nothing like the one I or my children know.

Ghost Buster

reprise wrote: »

I appreciate your point, I send my children to rc to establish some sort of a moral compass. They are free to reject it when they are old enough and it in no way impedes their ability or my wish that they see the imperfections or the alternatives.

I bring my kids up well to establish a moral compass. I don't need religion to do it for me. That seems odd to me.

reprise

Saipanne wrote: »

You can't do that? **** me...

I haven't been done for child abuse so far, but come the revolution.......

The Backwards Man

kylith wrote: »

I can tell you from experience that to be an atheist in a Catholic school is not a fun thing. Being told that you're going to hell. Clashes with teachers. Being forced to stand, sit, and kneel and proclaim the magnificence of something you don't believe in is an embittering experience.

Get religion out of schools. If parents want to raise their children religious then let them do it themselves rather than outsourcing it to the people whose time would be better spent teaching those children to read and add up.

You must be a lot older than me, I just got to read the encyclopedias (encyclopediae?) when the godly stuff was going on.

Celticfire

bpmurray wrote: »

Apparently four new multi-denominational schools are to open in Ireland. Why on earth did the government go so far but missed the absolutely critical last step and make these non-denominational and thus non-religious?

AFAIK, Ireland is the only country in the EU with zero non-denominational schools. With atheists making up the second-largest belief grouping, surely that extra step would have made sense (and, of course, helped win votes).

For the vast majority in the country, the government's insistence in ignoring the instructions from the UN human-rights folk means that there is no choice but to subject their children to a discriminatory education system riddled with proselytizing bigots, admittedly only a few teachers are like that, but There's Always One.

Absolutely nothing stopping you or anyone else setting up a non-denominational school in much the same way that Educate Together went about setting up their schools.

Irish schools work on a Patronage system so The Government doesn't actually set up new schools.

Instead of bemoaning the fact why don't you or others that this bothers go about setting up your own school?

Captain Chaos

reprise wrote: »

, I send my children to rc to establish some sort of a moral compass. .

You need religion to do that for you, really??

Natural common decency from a good educated upbringing instils a perfectly good moral compass.

Read any old testiment in the Bible, God had next to no moral compass in it. And being gay is seen as a sin. Great moral compass there. It's great being able to cherry pick religion points to go by and ignor the rest. Why not just make up your own morals in that case as your children will just pick the ones they want to follow anyway.

kylith

The Backwards Man wrote: »

You must be a lot older than me, I just got to read the encyclopedias (encyclopediae?) when the godly stuff was going on.

I don't think I am.

I wasn't excused from religion classes. I was made to sing in church, and pray at least twice a day. I'd have loved it if they'd just let me read down the back. I was so jealous of the COI girls, they got to do their homework during RE.

ElWalrus

Saipanne wrote: »

Nonsense. Let Thors hammer strike your heart, and lift you to the feet of Odin.

You know it makes sense.

No, let Anubis guide you to the afterlife where Ra's blinding light can illuminate your soul!

You know it makes sense!

reprise

Ghost Buster wrote: »

I bring my kids up well to establish a moral compass. I don't need religion to do it for me. That seems odd to me.

As is your right, I respect it.

I allow for the day that mummy and daddy aren't God either.

Delirium

Celticfire wrote: »

Absolutely nothing stopping you or anyone else setting up a non-denominational school in much the same way that Educate Together went about setting up their schools.

Irish schools work on a Patronage system so The Government doesn't actually set up new schools.

Instead of bemoaning the fact why don't you or others that this bothers go about setting up your own school?

The State (i.e. taxpayers) pay the bulk of the building, running costs and wages for the schools.

Cost of site - new national schools


The State pays the full cost of the site. The patron still has the choice of funding the site cost. If the State pays, then the State owns the school building and leases it to the patron under a lease or a deed of trust.


If the patron pays, the patron owns the school. If the State pays, it does not change who the patron is.

Building costs

There is still a local or patron contribution to building costs. It is now limited to 5% of the total cost up to a maximum amount set by the Department of Education and Skills (DES).

For special schools and schools designated as disadvantaged, the limit is 5% up to a maximum amount set by the Department.

Running costs of schools

The State pays a direct capitation grant of €178 per student to each primary school. The State pays the teachers' salaries. Enhanced capitation grants are paid for children with special educational needs in special schools or who attend special classes in mainstream schools. Capitation grants are used for the day-to-day running of schools and for teaching materials and resources.

Primary schools also receive a grant for caretaking and secretarial services (called the Ancillary Services Grant Scheme) and this is €147 per student or €73.50 per student, depending on whether the school gets the full-rate or half-rate grant. A local contribution was formerly required but has now been abolished.

Each school also receives a book grant. This is €21 per pupil for DEIS schools and €11 per pupil for non- DEIS schools.

Each school gets a grant towards the cost of minor works.

Some schools qualify for enhanced funding under various schemes for tackling disadvantage in primary schools such as DEIS and Early Start.

Source

So it's not exactly unreasonable that people suggest a more equal school model be adopted.

reprise

Captain Chaos wrote: »

You need religion to do that for you, really??

Natural common decency from a good educated upbringing instils a perfectly good moral compass.

Read any old testiment in the Bible, God had next to no moral compass in it. And being gay is seen as a sin. Great moral compass there. It's great being able to cherry pick religion points to go by and ignor the rest. Why not just make up your own morals in that case as your children will just pick the ones they want to follow anyway.

I don't recall any religious teachings about homosexuality when I was brought up and their were plenty of priests involved. You?

shruikan2553

Celticfire wrote: »

Absolutely nothing stopping you or anyone else setting up a non-denominational school in much the same way that Educate Together went about setting up their schools.

Irish schools work on a Patronage system so The Government doesn't actually set up new schools.

Instead of bemoaning the fact why don't you or others that this bothers go about setting up your own school?

They can't, schools have to have some sort of denomination. Maybe learn about what is actually possible before bemoaning if they bother you.

Hoop66

bpmurray wrote: »

AFAIK, Ireland is the only country in the EU with zero non-denominational schools.

Not quite. There's a few Educate Together schools that are non-denominational. My two kids go to one and there's not a sniff of religion; any kids whose parents want them to do communion etc. do it as an extra-curricular activity. It's great and, I would say, never have I seen such a happy bunch of kids.

arayess

how many different schools do you want Op?
Should a different school cater for all tastes and if they were would you give out that they were too far away from you? will you ever be happy?

despite the rantings of people like you on boards - the majority appetite is for the catholic ethos.
This may change in the future. But in my experience in my local area, the vast majority of foreign nationals seem to be nominally christian and insist on sending their kids to the catholic school, coupled with the Irish who seem to want that too . I wouldn't hold me breath Op.
That godless paradise you crave isn't on the cards quite yet.

bpmurray

reprise wrote: »

I honestly do not know what sort of school you went to, it resembles nothing like the one I or my children know.

My kids went to the local school which was a Catholic-managed and Catholic ethos school, although with all lay staff. The sort of stuff they were subjected to were:

• Sent out of the room to sit unsupervised in the hall during religion classes. This sort of thing is normally reserved as a punishment and was seen as such both by my kids and by the rest of the class.
• A teacher one of my kids had was a shriveled spinster with a rabid devotion to Catholicism, and would use every opportunity to say prayers and refer to those who did not adhere to the One True Faith as being somehow evil/inferior/insert epithet here.
• The comments from teachers when my kids were not participating in the religion class were often hurtful and poked fun at them, feeding the beast in the other kids, basically giving them the green light to bully.
• And more ...

After numerous visits to chat with the principal and after I tore one teacher a new one, things improved, but it should never have come to that. A simple situation should have been treated as that, and my kids should have been treated with dignity and respect, as I'm sure yours are (and rightly so).

And, from talking to others in the same situation, this is all quite normal. With, of course, the extra twist nowadays where if your kids aren't baptised they can't go to school at all.

shruikan2553

arayess wrote: »

how many different schools do you want Op?
Should a different school cater for all tastes and if they were would you give out that they were too far away from you? will you ever be happy?

despite the rantings of people like you on boards - the majority appetite is for the catholic ethos.
This may change in the future. But in my experience in my local area, the vast majority of foreign nationals seem to be nominally christian and insist on sending their kids to the catholic school, coupled with the Irish who seem to want that too . I wouldn't hold me breath Op.
That godless paradise you crave isn't on the cards quite yet.

Or could always make a school system suitable for everyone

Ghost Buster

reprise wrote: »

As is your right, I respect it.

I allow for the day that mummy and daddy aren't God either.

It's an obligation to do so. Not a right. I don't outsource my parental responsibility.

Ghost Buster

shruikan2553 wrote: »

They can't, schools have to have some sort of denomination. Maybe learn about what is actually possible before bemoaning if they bother you.

Why does a place of education need to brings others personal beliefs into the classroom?

The Backwards Man

kylith wrote: »

I don't think I am.

I wasn't excused from religion classes. I was made to sing in church, and pray at least twice a day. I'd have loved it if they'd just let me read down the back. I was so jealous of the COI girls, they got to do their homework during RE.

Ah, you should have told them you don't believe in transubstantiation rather than you don't believe in heaven, only a white lie and you would have got your homework done.

eviltwin

Hoop66 wrote: »

Not quite. There's a few Educate Together schools that are non-denominational. My two kids go to one and there's not a sniff of religion; any kids whose parents want them to do communion etc. do it as an extra-curricular activity. It's great and, I would say, never have I seen such a happy bunch of kids.

I don't really understand the difference between multi and non denominational. My son is in an ET, there is no religion class, there is an ethics class but so far they haven't touched on religion at all, its more about being a good person and being kind and all that stuff. I don't have an issue with kids learning about other cultures and customs and religion is part of that. Its the faith formation I have an issue with and thankfully our school doesn't do anything like that.

There is a class after school twice a week for those who want their kids to do communion and confirmation. I don't know why this can't be the norm. Its quite common for kids to stay behind for music, dance or sport so why not for religion too?

reprise

bpmurray wrote: »

My kids went to the local school which was a Catholic-managed and Catholic ethos school, although with all lay staff. The sort of stuff they were subjected to were:
(.............., )the extra twist nowadays where if your kids aren't baptised they can't go to school at all.

I sympathise with your experience, but it is a stretch to say that this is representative of every school or atheist schools would be models of perfection.

bpmurray

Hoop66 wrote: »

Not quite. There's a few Educate Together schools that are non-denominational. My two kids go to one and there's not a sniff of religion; any kids whose parents want them to do communion etc. do it as an extra-curricular activity. It's great and, I would say, never have I seen such a happy bunch of kids.

I think Educate Together is a wonderful movement, but don't get your facts wrong. They are actually a multi-denomational movement, not non-denominational. While I believe that most of the schools only teach religion in the form of comparative religion, some do include a "spiritual ethos".

From their home page:

From that first school, which brought new thinking to Irish education, the Educate Together network has grown. Today Educate Together operates 74 multi-denominational primary schools around the country. The growth in the Educate Together school network continues to be driven by parental demand

Hoop66

arayess wrote: »

despite the rantings of people like you on boards - the majority appetite is for the catholic ethos.

How do you explain the empty places at three local catholic schools and the 500% over-subscribed waiting list for the non-denominational school?

Perhaps I just live in a particularly godless area...

You're kidding yourself if you think that people send their kids to a catholic school because they specifically want a catholic ethos in their education. People send them to those schools because, in a lot of cases, there is no alternative, or because "that's where they've always gone".

Hoop66

bpmurray wrote: »

I think Educate Together is a wonderful movement, but don't get your facts wrong. They are actually a multi-denomational movement, not non-denominational. While I believe that most of the schools only teach religion in the form of comparative religion, some do include a "spiritual ethos".

From their home page:

From that first school, which brought new thinking to Irish education, the Educate Together network has grown. Today Educate Together operates 74 multi-denominational primary schools around the country. The growth in the Educate Together school network continues to be driven by parental demand

In name only, I can assure you. In my experience anyway.

And as long as they're not forcing any particular religious ethos on the kids they are, to all intents and purposes, non-denominational.

reprise

Ghost Buster wrote: »

It's an obligation to do so. Not a right. I don't outsource my parental responsibility.

Nor do I. One complements the other.

Ghost Buster

reprise wrote: »

I sympathise with your experience, but it is a stretch to say that this is representative of every school or atheist schools would be models of perfection.

What is or would be an atheist school?
Perhaps you mean secular.?

CptMackey

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

People who don't want to baptise their child lose out.

We had our first born, in September & I assumed he would be on an equal footing with other citizens wrt access to education ....

Wrong, people of no denomination are put bottom of the pile.

So, we had little choice but to reluctantly indoctrinate him into the RCC.

Ridiculous, backward & wrong.

Going through the same thing myself. Not sure what to do really. Want to get him into the local school but don't want him to be indoctrinated

Very annoying that religion has any power in this area now

shruikan2553

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Why does a place of education need to brings others personal beliefs into the classroom?

Because supposedly people want it. Despite the fact that there is growing demand for otherwise.

Why do people want it? ****ed if I know.

Personally I would prefer to condense everything so the best facilities possible can be provided but people value which book they prefer more.

reprise

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't really understand the difference between multi and non denominational. My son is in an ET, there is no religion class, there is an ethics class but so far they haven't touched on religion at all, its more about being a good person and being kind and all that stuff. I don't have an issue with kids learning about other cultures and customs and religion is part of that. Its the faith formation I have an issue with and thankfully our school doesn't do anything like that.

There is a class after school twice a week for those who want their kids to do communion and confirmation. I don't know why this can't be the norm. Its quite common for kids to stay behind for music, dance or sport so why not for religion too?

An ethics class? Almost like a secular version of religion?

Nodin

reprise wrote: »

I sympathise with your experience, but it is a stretch to say that this is representative of every school or atheist schools would be models of perfection.

There are "atheist schools" in Ireland?

bpmurray

arayess wrote: »

how many different schools do you want Op?
Should a different school cater for all tastes and if they were would you give out that they were too far away from you? will you ever be happy?

despite the rantings of people like you on boards - the majority appetite is for the catholic ethos.
This may change in the future. But in my experience in my local area, the vast majority of foreign nationals seem to be nominally christian and insist on sending their kids to the catholic school, coupled with the Irish who seem to want that too . I wouldn't hold me breath Op.
That godless paradise you crave isn't on the cards quite yet.

Actually, a fair shake is all that's required. The constitution guarantees freedom of religion, and the UN has told Ireland to provide for non-Catholics. A school should provide for everyone: the government should not be in the religion business. If you want some extra-curricular education, that's absolutely fine, but don't expect that every kid will participate, and don't pillory them for not doing so.

Hoop66

reprise wrote: »

An ethics class? Almost like a secular version of religion?

Absolute nonsense. Ethics is about right and wrong, not "doing what god tells you".