Another BMW Timing Chain Thread! (Need Your Help)

myshirt

Just to add to the forum for anyone researching or considering buying a car with the 4pot N47 engine. Simply... don't.

Nothing but pain.

Dreaded rattle confirmed today. Just over €2k to sort. Or drive on and face engine failure.

Anyway.... can someone give me an opinion in general as to whether it's worth selling these heaps of sh!t as is; or fixing and selling; or fixing and keeping, given the cost? (in general)

I mean given the amount of them showing up at garages, has there been an accepted fix that has developed in the trade that is able to sort this out once and for all? Or is it just a waste of time?
(insofar as you can expect; obviously I'm not going to pin a fella to the wall if it rattles after another 100,000 miles, but don't want to pay for all that labour and waste everyones time and money if it's just not worth it)

mossy50

just paid 2100 for a new engine for a bmw 116 SH1TE BOX
Dodgy petrol broke the timing chain
like you we had 2 options sell as is or fix it
we would get nothing for it as was probably scrap value
hence we got it fixed

PaulKK

What year/build date is it myshirt?

Bought an April 2011 built n47 recently to avoid this issue. Was ment to be sorted from March 2011.

myshirt

It is a late 2008 build... just wondering if I get it fixed, how long is the engine good for after that....

These cars are a disaster. Serviced it every 10-12miles from 50,000. Just over 100,000 on the clock at the mo.

PaulKK

myshirt wrote: »

It is a late 2008 build... just wondering if I get it fixed, how long is the engine good for after that....

These cars are a disaster. Serviced it every 10-12miles from 50,000. Just over 100,000 on the clock at the mo.

The 08/09 engines are notorious. If you get the full job done (guide rails, tensioners, camshaft) I'm sure it will last the life of the car.

Not much consolation to you but it should be solid after that.

myshirt

PaulKK wrote: »

The 08/09 engines are notorious. If you get the full job done (guide rails, tensioners, camshaft) I'm sure it will last the life of the car.

Not much consolation to you but it should be solid after that.

Thanks man, I appreciate your reply. I am absolutely devastated with this car.

pred racer

myshirt wrote: »

Just to add to the forum for anyone researching or considering buying a car with the 4pot N47 engine. Simply... don't.

Nothing but pain.

Dreaded rattle confirmed today. Just over €2k to sort. Or drive on and face engine failure.

Anyway.... can someone give me an opinion in general as to whether it's worth selling these heaps of sh!t as is; or fixing and selling; or fixing and keeping, given the cost? (in general)

I mean given the amount of them showing up at garages, has there been an accepted fix that has developed in the trade that is able to sort this out once and for all? Or is it just a waste of time?
(insofar as you can expect; obviously I'm not going to pin a fella to the wall if it rattles after another 100,000 miles, but don't want to pay for all that labour and waste everyones time and money if it's just not worth it)

If it's just rattling, there are garages that will do it for a lot less than that.
13-1800 seems to be the going rate.

myshirt

Well look, I don't want to take the bread of any man's table.... I won't quibble and argue for a few hundred quid if a guy is going to be honest with me, sort it out and stand by his work.

Think about if I went into BMW themselves what they'd say... don't want to descend into a BMW bashing thread so I'll leave it at this... they overfilled my car with oil before by over a litre... and told me there was nothing wrong with flywheel when there was clearly a vibration in the gear box and clutch, and revs at idle were not right... it's just insane, very bad experience with them in three dealerships.

bazz26

It can be done for around €1500 these days from a good indy garage. As recommended on the bmw owners forums - Valdas in Motor Confidence in Ballycoolin, D15.

Unfortunately it is up to you if you want to spend the money on getting it done or take a big hit on the selling price if shifting it. Actually as the problem is fairly well known now buyers looking at these cars are actually seeking out cars that have had the chain already replaced.

myshirt

bazz26 wrote: »

It can be done for around €1500 these days from a good indy garage. As recommended on the bmw owners forums - Valdas in Motor Confidence in Ballycoolin, D15.

Unfortunately it is up to you if you want to spend the money on getting it done or take a big hit on the selling price if shifting it. Actually as the problem is fairly well known now buyers looking at these cars are actually seeking out cars that have had the chain already replaced.

Yeah that makes sense...

My point is just what can I reasonably expect out of a repair here. Is it worth it. Or am I just pissing against the wind and playing another game of ticking time bomb.
The car is not worth that; ultimate driving machine, executive leisure; whatever the marketing is. I'd rather just drive a Volvo or something.

But look, if this will €2k will fix it, I'll stick with the car. But I will never, ever buy a BMW again.

I am from Limerick originally and I will be back home soon... I won't be driving it after that.... I know to be honest that I shouldn't even drive it that far.... anyone any suggestions for someone in Limerick??

Kintarō Hattori

A second vote for Valdas here. Granted we have a petrol but we had to get the timing chain sorted on that after we bought it. We've also had him service it a few times as well.

bazz26

To be honest if you are around Dublin then getting Valdas to do is the best option imo. If the chain snaps then your looking potentially at an engine rebuild or replacement.

Clondrinagh Motor Centre just off the Ennis Road in Limerick are a BMW indy also and do alot of them but they are pricey enough the last time I heard. Brendan Holmes in Alpina-motorworks in Castlemungret is a German car specialists and supposed to be good but have no personal experience of using him. If your down by Abbeyfeale then Bavarian Auto Technik are also well regarded as BMW specialists.

Foxhole Norman

myshirt wrote: »

Yeah that makes sense...

My point is just what can I reasonably expect out of a repair here. Is it worth it. Or am I just pissing against the wind and playing another game of ticking time bomb.
The car is not worth that; ultimate driving machine, executive leisure; whatever the marketing is. I'd rather just drive a Volvo or something.

But look, if this will €2k will fix it, I'll stick with the car. But I will never, ever buy a BMW again.

I am from Limerick originally and I will be back home soon... I won't be driving it after that.... I know to be honest that I shouldn't even drive it that far.... anyone any suggestions for someone in Limerick??

The repair should sort it as the OEM fixtures are crap quality, most repairs upgrade the chain/tensioners/guides with uprated ones that should've been in there in the first place.

I do find it funny though that you'll never buy another one again based on your experience of one car and their entry level 5 at that.

myshirt

Just a bad experience my friend.... maybe my judgement is clouded as I am so upset about this... but I don't see myself enjoying a BMW anymore, my experience with this will always stick with me. It really has been a disaster of a car for me and anyone I have known.

myshirt

bazz26 wrote: »

To be honest if you are around Dublin then getting Valdas to do is the best option imo. If the chain snaps then your looking potentially at an engine rebuild or replacement.

Clondrinagh Motor Centre just off the Ennis Road in Limerick are a BMW indy also and do alot of them but they are pricey enough the last time I heard. Brendan Holmes in Alpina-motorworks in Castlemungret is a German car specialists and supposed to be good but have no personal experience of using him. If your down by Abbeyfeale then Bavarian Auto Technik are also well regarded as BMW specialists.

Yeah I have actually heard good things about Bavarian Auto Technik. I might try Clondrinagh and see what they think. I will ultimately get one or two quotes.

bazz26

Foxhole Norman wrote: »

The repair should sort it as the OEM fixtures are crap quality, most repairs upgrade the chain/tensioners/guides with uprated ones that should've been in there in the first place.

I do find it funny though that you'll never buy another one again based on your experience of one car and their entry level 5 at that.

In fairness having to spend €1500 to €2k to repair an obvious design fault, through no fault of the owner would leave a fairly bitter taste in most people's mouths. Shouldn't matter whether it is a 520d or a M5.

bazz26

Some interesting reading in this thread:
http://www.bmwhaus.ie/forum/showthread.php?tid=820

Foxhole Norman

bazz26 wrote: »

In fairness having to spend €1500 to €2k to repair an obvious design fault, through no fault of the owner would leave a fairly bitter taste in most people's mouths. Shouldn't matter whether it is a 520d or a M5.

Oh it's a blatant design fault, it's like my E39's coolant design fault, they made it pretty much entirely out of plastic so has to be done every now and again.

Aren't BMW offering goodwill on these issues?

bazz26

Foxhole Norman wrote: »

Oh it's a blatant design fault, it's like my E39's coolant design fault, they made it pretty much entirely out of plastic so has to be done every now and again.

Aren't BMW offering goodwill on these issues?

I think upto a certain age and mileage. However I think even when you take goodwill into account it still works out cheaper to get it done by an indy. Worth investigating though.

myshirt

Need full bmw service history, and less than 100k with all repair work done at bmw.

I don't have that as I moved away from BMW over 30k ago after bad service experience and also double price on flywheel and clutch kit replacement.

Voodoomelon

Foxhole Norman wrote: »

Oh it's a blatant design fault, it's like my E39's coolant design fault, they made it pretty much entirely out of plastic so has to be done every now and again.

I wouldn't call that a fault, sure they're all made from plastic but gave little to no trouble for the first 5-6 years of their lives, same with the E38s. I actually know a number of E39 owners, all with the majoroty of their original cooling components. Same with my last E38, on original everything bar thermostat after 13 years.

greasepalm

one thing gets noticed in the trade ins of bmws lack of servicing,next door took one in and went to service it and the paper oil filter was lost in a pile of crud needing a screwdriver to dig it out,turbo was toast also.

mossy50

PaulKK wrote: »

What year/build date is it myshirt?

Bought an April 2011 built n47 recently to avoid this issue. Was ment to be sorted from March 2011.

april 09

Foxhole Norman

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I wouldn't call that a fault, sure they're all made from plastic but gave little to no trouble for the first 5-6 years of their lives, same with the E38s. I actually know a number of E39 owners, all with the majoroty of their original cooling components. Same with my last E38, on original everything bar thermostat after 13 years.

Mine was on all original components too bar the rad which was replaced before, the cooling system is a notorious weakness of the cars from the E38/E39/E46, it really wasn't sufficient and it was widespread, you don't really hear of it on Audi's/Mercs of the time yet if you look at buying guides for the E39 it's all about making sure the cooling was overhauled and the suspension refreshed, which I must get on.....

myshirt

greasepalm wrote: »

one thing gets noticed in the trade ins of bmws lack of servicing,next door took one in and went to service it and the paper oil filter was lost in a pile of crud needing a screwdriver to dig it out,turbo was toast also.

Mine was serviced with the correct oil every 10-12miles from 50 on the clock to the 100k on the clock now, including fuel filter every 20miles.

80% of journeys were a minimum 14 miles or more, so car does get up to temperature and separate to that does get a good motorway run every week. There has been 50,000 put on it without a rattle. Now it's turned into a bag of spanners quicker than anything..

Majority of miles had been good miles. Some hard miles. But I took care of the car. I change gear at 2,500 to 3,000 RPMs and don't drive the bollox out of it. I give her 5 minutes in the morning before moving from stationary, all glow plugs are intact, and I let her cool down before turning off. She always had enough water and coolant etc.

In my view, they are just plain and simple a sh!t engine and there is f#ck all you can do to prevent the chain problem. Unless someone will correct me and what I done wrong, bar buying a 4 pot and 177bhp. Which is all a joke. Car is a disaster.

Do correct me where I am wrong guys, as I am not a mechanic, I appreciate yer help and comments.

dingus12

I do wonder how BMW made such a ****e job of this timing chain when they where able to make perfect timing chain set ups for 25 years before the N47,

My mother has a 2004 530d with 275k miles on it now, original chain/turbo/injectors in fact the only non service item changed on the engine was the bottom belt pulley and a crank shaft position sensor at 120k.

oil chainged every 15k miles, heater plugs stopped at 35k miles.

myshirt

Yeah... and then they point the finger of blame at mechanics outside the BMW network.... cos as we all know, BMW are the only people in the world who can service cars.

Anyway, we'll move on....

Tom Joad

Fell your pain myshirt and don't want to hijack your thread but could you give a bit more info on the rattle - I know it can be tricky to describe a "rattle".

I have one of the N47 engines which I have looked after since I got it (@5ok miles) but still the turbo went after 70k miles and have been paranoid about the timing chain going since and have been on the lookout for the telltale signs of the timing chain causing problems since. I've noticed a vibration in the car over the last few days and am hoping it's not the sign of timing chain issues.

This is my 5th BMW and I can safely say I'll never touch another one again.

myshirt

Tom, it's like a bag of spanners are having a rave under the bonnet.

But it also can be more sneaky than that, so put your ear by the passenger side under the bonnet and have someone very gently accelerate, or open the throttle, and listen.

I don't want to frighten anyone who has this car, but read my post above on my service history. This car was very well taken care of. So in my view, you have this car, it's very likely it's gonna happen more than it won't. You may get a warning. You may get no warning.

Caliden

Off topic: but I own a 2005 120d, does this timing chain fault affect that also?

Btw, Valdas is now located on Knockmitten lane near the long mile road junction, go to him regularly after the recommendations on here.


Edit: found out what I needed to know, it's the N47 affected by it. Mine has the M47 which didn't have those problems but it did have the swirl flaps issue which I got sorted last year before anything bad happened.

Tom Joad

myshirt wrote: »

Tom, it's like a bag of spanners are having a rave under the bonnet.

But it also can be more sneaky than that, so put your ear by the passenger side under the bonnet and have someone very gently accelerate, or open the throttle, and listen.

I don't want to frighten anyone who has this car, but read my post above on my service history. This car was very well taken care of. So in my view, you have this car, it's very likely it's gonna happen more than it won't. You may get a warning. You may get no warning.

Thanks for that myshirt.

From everything I've heard about the turbo issues and the timing chain problems it appears to me that a well maintained car doesn't stop these things happening. :rolleyes:

Tea 1000

Foxhole Norman wrote: »

The repair should sort it as the OEM fixtures are crap quality, most repairs upgrade the chain/tensioners/guides with uprated ones that should've been in there in the first place.

I do find it funny though that you'll never buy another one again based on your experience of one car and their entry level 5 at that.

The crankshaft has to be replaced for the job to be done correctly, so it's worth making sure whoever is doing it does the whole lot.
And in fairness, it's not just the N47 that has problems in the BMW camp!

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I wouldn't call that a fault, sure they're all made from plastic but gave little to no trouble for the first 5-6 years of their lives, same with the E38s. I actually know a number of E39 owners, all with the majoroty of their original cooling components. Same with my last E38, on original everything bar thermostat after 13 years.

There are far more with the cooling system changed than not though!
BMW have plenty of problems, I can see where the OP is coming from. Crap like this from a brand like BMW is just unacceptable. I had an N53 engine with no end of hardship, full BMW history on that too and 50k miles. Piece of shít. And BMW folk have the gall to laugh at Alfa's for reliability issues!
There's f**k all driving pleasure to be had from the passenger seat of the flatbed truck that your BMW is sitting on.
If I buy a BMW again, it'll be something of E39 vintage with all the issues ironed out and knowledge about how to sort future issues. The N53 doesn't even have a dipstick. Just the warning bong, which may as well be a Euro symbol appearing on the dash, cause you're about to get fairly broke. Again.
/Rant.
I'll be looking towards a Mazda MX5 for my weekend fun I reckon, until I can afford a GT86...

myshirt

Tea 1000 wrote: »

There's f**k all driving pleasure to be had from the passenger seat of the flatbed truck that your BMW is sitting on.

Quote of the thread.

xabi

Is this issue fixed on the F10's?

Voodoomelon

What was the service history of the car in the first 50,000 miles? I've put at least 2 people off buying the 09-early 11 520ds, hugh majority of people wouldn't have a clue.

MetzgerMeister

bazz26 wrote: »

In fairness having to spend €1500 to €2k to repair an obvious design fault, through no fault of the owner would leave a fairly bitter taste in most people's mouths.

*Cough*

bazz26

For those interested, this is how a stretched timing chain sounds on the N47 engine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIvdSPu5A5Q

myshirt

Voodoomelon wrote: »

What was the service history of the car in the first 50,000 miles? I've put at least 2 people off buying the 09-early 11 520ds, hugh majority of people wouldn't have a clue.

18miles, 36 miles, 50 miles, all by BMW.
I figured if that is where the damage was done, it would have shown up at about 70miles.

mfceiling

Ultimate Driving Machine my arse...

We had a 520d. Flywheel gave up after 2 months - from new. It blew bulbs every week without fail. Ate tyres and the tracking was always in sh*te after being done every few months.

It lay down and sh*t itself at 90,000kms....flywheel (again) and turbo along with clutch.

I told the guy from BMW on the phone that "ultimate driving machine" claim was utter bollix - spent more money on repairs than anything else.

Car was stolen in 2011 - house broken into and keys robbed. After the shock we had a laugh and said it probably broke down about a mile away!!

Never had another bmw since - probably never will again.

MetzgerMeister

mfceiling wrote: »

Ultimate Driving Machine my arse...

More like Ultimate money-spinning Machine!

With that said though, mine has been very reliable since I got it apart from having to get the turbos replaced.

Idbatterim

the bmws that have the issues have been well documented, before going out splashing out a serious wedge on a car, doing five minutes of research on the car might not be a bad idea. Of course the issue is a joke on bmw's part, but at least if you do some research you can make an informed decision... I drove an 03 325ci and in 3 years of ownership, the started motor going after 90,000 odd miles has been the only issue, E30 for a refurbished bosch one from an Irish seller on ebay... Put it this way, if you do your research on the particular model, have the car checked out and are in any way practical, they don't have to cost the world...

Elessar

I have this engine in my car but tbh I'm not too concerned. I do ensure it is serviced as required (I know this doesn't necessarily reflect if I will get the issue) and have the extended comprehensive warranty with breakdown assist. Tbh I absolutely love the car, the best I've ever owned.

The chain issue rears its head quite a bit but you only ever hear of those with problems. Nobody ever tells you that their car is great and has no faults. I'm sure there lots and lots out there without this issue.

Tea 1000

Idbatterim wrote: »

the bmws that have the issues have been well documented, before going out splashing out a serious wedge on a car, doing five minutes of research on the car might not be a bad idea. Of course the issue is a joke on bmw's part, but at least if you do some research you can make an informed decision... I drove an 03 325ci and in 3 years of ownership, the started motor going after 90,000 odd miles has been the only issue, E30 for a refurbished bosch one from an Irish seller on ebay... Put it this way, if you do your research on the particular model, have the car checked out and are in any way practical, they don't have to cost the world...

In other words, if you're buying a BMW, buy an old one. That way there's a good chance that all the problems are known on them, so you can buy the ones that are left and bring your list with you!
Seriously though, E90 onwards are just too complex. There are known things and unknown things. You can be lucky and sort the known issues, but when those are sorted and there are still problems, everyone is perplexed and you get phrases of "new engine" being thrown around.
At least you can fix the older ones!

myshirt

Elessar wrote: »

I have this engine in my car but tbh I'm not too concerned. I do ensure it is serviced as required (I know this doesn't necessarily reflect if I will get the issue) and have the extended comprehensive warranty with breakdown assist. Tbh I absolutely love the car, the best I've ever owned.

The chain issue rears its head quite a bit but you only ever hear of those with problems. Nobody ever tells you that their car is great and has no faults. I'm sure there lots and lots out there without this issue.

I hear you. You are right. Nevertheless, there is a sufficient level of cars out there with the problem to say it is significant.

There is no reliable study of course with numbers. The best we can do is use judgement and think about a few things; given it reached BBC watchdog levels; had x amount of verified petitions to BMW; good few solicitors firms have staff on the case, so there is a bit of work to keep a fella going; and speaking to mechanics.

I had a former collegeague speak with their UK counter part (solicitors) and in his circle of friends in London they have about 5 or 6 cases a month; not a lot, but still. And some of those clients would have been fleet owners.

Guys in Limerick have 2 to 3 a month each to fix they said, never less than one.

Paddy@CIRL

Tea 1000 wrote: »

In other words, if you're buying a BMW, buy an old one. That way there's a good chance that all the problems are known on them, so you can buy the ones that are left and bring your list with you!
Seriously though, E90 onwards are just too complex. There are known things and unknown things. You can be lucky and sort the known issues, but when those are sorted and there are still problems, everyone is perplexed and you get phrases of "new engine" being thrown around.
At least you can fix the older ones!

E90s are fine provided they're M47 or six cylinders.

I have mine over three years, de-swirl flapped it immediately and oil service it every 10,000KM and it's never missed a beat. This nonsense of 20-25,000KM intervals between oil services is pure marketing bull****.

I still think it's hilarious that people are willing to pay a premium for an 08/09 320d. Yes, you'll save a few quid on tax and your neighbour might be impressed with the number plate but it counts for nought once that chain starts rattling.

FWIW, the issue was never fully sorted at any stage in the N47's lifetime. The N47 was replaced in late 2014 with the B47.

166man

What Paddy says above is true. The N47 timing chain engine was never officially fixed until they changed to the B47 engine in 2014.

Cars from late 2007 right up until 2013 will continue to suffer from this problem. It's a strange one because I used to see some cars come in with 200k km on them and be uber quiet (for a daysul ) then others in with 50k km and be rattling away. The cause is difference in loads of cases, making it difficult to pinpoint. We used to be doing 5-6 timing chains a week.

Source: worked for one of the largest BMW dealers in the country for 5 months.

MetzgerMeister

Isn't the main cause of expense the fact that the chain is at the bulkhead therefore the whole engine has to be removed in order to sort out the chain?

mayota

bazz26 wrote: »

For those interested, this is how a stretched timing chain sounds on the N47 engine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIvdSPu5A5Q

If OP's car sounds like this I'd be parking it until problem fixed.

myshirt

I think so Metz.

Have read in some of the links I have been referred to that on the 5 series, it can be got at by removing gearbox and flywheel. Don't know if true?

In any event, given the amount of labour invested, what should I be expecting to be done after all that effort has been put in? Simply that the chain is replaced? Or does the crankshaft, fuel pump or anything else need to be done?

What I mean is what has developed as 'standard' in solving this problem, given the amount of experience that is now out there?

What should I expect to be done for my €2k?

166man

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

Isn't the main cause of expense the fact that the chain is at the bulkhead therefore the whole engine has to be removed in order to sort out the chain?

Correct. Chain located at rear of the engine with the reason being improved pedestrian safety. More room between the engine and bonnet easing impact in the event of an accident.

To repair involved dropping subframe, engine and gearbox and rebuilding, mahoosive labour costs at a dealers!

MetzgerMeister

166man wrote: »

Correct. Chain located at rear of the engine with the reason being improved pedestrian safety. More room between the engine and bonnet easing impact in the event of an accident.

People don't get eaten by the car and then have damage caused by their head hitting off the engine and the underneath of the bonnet :pac: