Irish Language Act

gananam

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't follow you. Either you claim the ability to receive state services in your native language is or is not an inalienable right. Rights are not conditional on the geographic location the claimant is stationed. It seems you're trying to say the government must provide services in Irish but not any other language because it happens to have jurisdiction over the territory Irish used to be spoken in.

In other words you're saying language rights are inalienable for those who speak a language with historical precedence in the area they live but not for those who have moved to another country / territory / jurisdiction / made up line in the sand.

French used to be spoken in Ireland by the Norman lords, should we provide services in French? What about Viking? Vikings were quite common on the Eastern shore and of course founded Dublin. Latin? The church spoke almost exclusively in Latin.

This sounds farcical but you're claiming people have a right to access services in a language that has precedence in the land the government happens to hold jurisdiction over.

You really need to educate yourself on minority language rights.
A good place to start would be the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages.

While the charter is not directly applicable to the Irish language in the Republic (though it is directly applicable to the Irish language in the North) it gives an insight into how minority language rights are dealt with.

For example, straight from the preamble:
''Considering that the right to use a regional or minority language in private and public life is an inalienable right conforming to the principles embodied in the United Nations International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and according to the spirit of the Council of Europe Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms; ''

So as we can see, it is held that members of a minority language community do indeed have a right to use their language both in the private and public sphere.

In terms of the issue of where the language is spoken, the charter defines a regional or minority language as one which is ''traditionally used within a given territory of a State by nationals of that State who form a group numerically smaller than the rest of the State's population''.

''It seems you're trying to say the government must provide services in Irish but not any other language because it happens to have jurisdiction over the territory Irish used to be spoken in.''

Yes this accurate enough, and as demonstrated above, there is plenty of basis for it. Though lets try to be accurate, there is no 'used to' about the speaking of Irish in Ireland. Irish is a living language that is spoken here by a community of speakers that number in the tens of thousands of people. These people are living breathing human beings, they are not a community that 'used to' exist, something which distinguishes them from 'Viking', Latin and Norman French speakers in Ireland. Living people have language rights, dead people from centuries ago don't, see how it works now? It's quite simple really.

Rights that are only granted by legislation and can be removed by legislation or inaction on the part of the Government. I'm sorry but this is an anglophone country and that isn't going to change.

Rights granted in legislation can be removed by legislation, but there is little chance of that happening in the case of Irish. As for government inaction, that's what courts are for. There is a list of cases that Irish speakers have taken against the state to vindicate their rights to use Irish. A notable one in 2001 essentially forced the states hand in enacting the OLA.

Iwasfrozen

gananam wrote: »

You really need to educate yourself on minority language rights.

I'm good thanks.

A good place to start would be the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages.

While the charter is not directly applicable to the Irish language in the Republic (though it is directly applicable to the Irish language in the North) it gives an insight into how minority language rights are dealt with.

For example, straight from the preamble:
''Considering that the right to use a regional or minority language in private and public life is an inalienable right conforming to the principles embodied in the United Nations International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and according to the spirit of the Council of Europe Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms; ''

So as we can see, it is held that members of a minority language community do indeed have a right to use their language both in the private and public sphere.

In terms of the issue of where the language is spoken, the charter defines a regional or minority language as one which is ''traditionally used within a given territory of a State by nationals of that State who form a group numerically smaller than the rest of the State's population''.

''It seems you're trying to say the government must provide services in Irish but not any other language because it happens to have jurisdiction over the territory Irish used to be spoken in.''

That's lovely, does it give people the right to access state services in Irish?

Yes this accurate enough, and as demonstrated above, there is plenty of basis for it. Though lets try to be accurate, there is no 'used to' about the speaking of Irish in Ireland. Irish is a living language that is spoken here by a community of speakers that number in the tens of thousands of people. These people are living breathing human beings, they are not a community that 'used to' exist, something which distinguishes them from 'Viking', Latin and Norman French speakers in Ireland. Living people have language rights, dead people from centuries ago don't, see how it works now? It's quite simple really.

I'm being quite accurate when I say used to. The Irish language community is dying and is only being kept alive by state intervention. You can't stop the inevitable forever though. As I've stated before this is an anglophone country and that isn't going to change.

Rights granted in legislation can be removed by legislation, but there is little chance of that happening in the case of Irish. As for government inaction, that's what courts are for. There is a list of cases that Irish speakers have taken against the state to vindicate their rights to use Irish. A notable one in 2001 essentially forced the states hand in enacting the OLA.

And how has the OLA worked out for you? Can you access all state services in Irish? Or has the government been half arsed at best in it's requirements to appease the courts?

I really don't get why you're so obsessed with keeping this useless language alive. It really doesn't affect me in my daily life but I find your obsession bizarre and distasteful.

gananam

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm good thanks.

So you want to have your opinion taken seriously but are unwilling to actually gain knowledge of the topic? Right, good luck with that.

That's lovely, does it give people the right to access state services in Irish?

The charter does give Irish speakers protection in the North, in the republic Irish as an official language and as such the charter does not apply because the state already recognizes the rights of the minority language community. Our constitution and legislation is what gives people the right to access state services in Irish.

I'm being quite accurate when I say used to. The Irish language community is dying and is only being kept alive by state intervention. You can't stop the inevitable forever though. As I've stated before this is an anglophone country and that isn't going to change.

No, actually you are being the opposite of accurate when you say used to, you are being obviously and demonstrably wrong. Irish speakers are people, they have rights and you will not deny their rights to them.

People have been confidently predicting the death of the Irish language for centuries, they are dead now, Irish is not.

Now, I know that you are one of the people that President Higgins referred to as 'those for whom Irish is not half dead enough', but you ill-informed opinion is just that, ill-informed.

And how has the OLA worked out for you? Can you access all state services in Irish? Or has the government been half arsed at best in it's requirements to appease the courts?

It's working out quite well actually. The range and standard of services has improved greatly in the last ten years. Of course the public service has dragged its feet, but then inertia is in the nature of large bureaucracies. The obligations under the law that have been imposed and the ability to access an efficient mechanism for the redress of failures by public bodies through An Coimisinéir Teanga have made a big difference.

Plenty of work to be done, but its nice to see that progress is being made.

I really don't get why you're so obsessed with keeping this useless language alive. It really doesn't affect me in my daily life but I find your obsession bizarre and distasteful.

You may consider Irish to be useless, but I'm not really interested in your opinion. Irish is useful to me, I use it every day, your opinion does not change that fact. You can use pejorative terms like 'obsessed' but a quick look at your posting history shows that you yourself seem to be quite obsessed with the Irish language. Tell me, has there been a thread involving the Irish language on this site that you have refrained from posting in?

Iwasfrozen

gananam wrote: »

So you want to have your opinion taken seriously but are unwilling to actually gain knowledge of the topic? Right, good luck with that.

I believe I have adequate knowledge on the topic. More than you if you think you have a constitutional right to access state services in Irish.

The charter does give Irish speakers protection in the North, in the republic Irish as an official language and as such the charter does not apply because the state already recognizes the rights of the minority language community. Our constitution and legislation is what gives people the right to access state services in Irish.

No. Not constitution and legislation, we've been through this, any rights Irish speakers have to access state services in Irish are purely legislative and court precedence. They can be removed whole of piecemeal without the need for a referendum.

No, actually you are being the opposite of accurate when you say used to, you are being obviously and demonstrably wrong. Irish speakers are people, they have rights and you will not deny their rights to them.

They have rights as people yes, access to state services in Irish is not one of them.

People have been confidently predicting the death of the Irish language for centuries, they are dead now, Irish is not.

Now, I know that you are one of the people that President Higgins referred to as 'those for whom Irish is not half dead enough', but you ill-informed opinion is just that, ill-informed.

People have been correctly predicting the death of the Irish language for centuries, the languages existence past their own lives does not prove them wrong unless they predicted the language would die within their life time.

Is Irish a dieing language? Of course. Will it survive as a minority language beyond my life time? Of course but that doesn't mean it isn't dieing.

I don't want to see the language dead, as long as my tax money isn't being wasted on it I don't care who speaks it.

It's working out quite well actually. The range and standard of services has improved greatly in the last ten years. Of course the public service has dragged its feet, but then inertia is in the nature of large bureaucracies. The obligations under the law that have been imposed and the ability to access an efficient mechanism for the redress of failures by public bodies through An Coimisinéir Teanga have made a big difference.

Plenty of work to be done, but its nice to see that progress is being made.

Can you access A&E in Irish? If you tried to live your lie totally through Irish in Dublin how would you get on?

You may consider Irish to be useless, but I'm not really interested in your opinion. Irish is useful to me, I use it every day, your opinion does not change that fact. You can use pejorative terms like 'obsessed' but a quick look at your posting history shows that you yourself seem to be quite obsessed with the Irish language. Tell me, has there been a thread involving the Irish language on this site that you have refrained from posting in?

In what context do you use it? In social contexts Irish is forced used. In professional context the job exists to fulfil an artificial demand created by the government. Neither make the language very useful.

You're fighting a losing battle and you know it. English is the language of international culture, business, politics and science. English is the world's lingua fanca and the most learned second language. In the near future the English language will grow in strength, it will dominate the globe connecting people of all races and cultures, the new language of Babel while Irish will wither away and die like thousands of other minority languages.

This isn't opinion, this is happening regardless of anyone's opinions. Globalization is changing the world for the better and there is no room for inward looking localisms.

gananam

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I believe I have adequate knowledge on the topic. More than you if you think you have a constitutional right to access state services in Irish.

Sorry, but between your self and the supreme court, I think i'm going to trust the supreme court.
You can call you ill-informed opinion 'knowledge' if you want, but its not much to go by if you ask me.

No. Not constitution and legislation, we've been through this, any rights Irish speakers have to access state services in Irish are purely legislative and court precedence. They can be removed whole of piecemeal without the need for a referendum.

Both legislation and court decision are based on the provisions of the constitution.

They have rights as people yes, access to state services in Irish is not one of them.

False.

People have been correctly predicting the death of the Irish language for centuries, the languages existence past their own lives does not prove them wrong unless they predicted the language would die within their life time.

If you are claiming to ability to predict the future, then there is really no point talking to you. If someone predicted, centuries ago, that the Irish language was dyeing and yet it lives on today, its fairly safe to say that the person who maid the claim was wrong.

Can you access A&E in Irish? If you tried to live your lie totally through Irish in Dublin how would you get on?

Good question, I haven't been near A&E for years, I will have to ask them.

In what context do you use it? In social contexts Irish is forced used. In professional context the job exists to fulfill an artificial demand created by the government. Neither make the language very useful.

Who are you to tell me if my use of Irish in social contexts is 'forced'? The only language I was ever forced to speak is English.

You're fighting a losing battle and you know it. English is the language of international culture, business, politics and science. English is the world's lingua fanca and the most learned second language. In the near future the English language will grow in strength, it will dominate the globe connecting people of all races and cultures, the new language of Babel while Irish will wither away and die like thousands of other minority languages.

Actually the English language has already started the process of falling apart. In another few hundred years there wont be an English language, just a family of languages that stem from English. That is part of the natural evolution of language, much the same thing happened to Latin.

This isn't opinion, this is happening regardless of anyone's opinions. Globalization is changing the world for the better and there is no room for inward looking localisms.

Thanks for confirming the intolerant nature of you beliefs. You might not think there is any room for my language or culture, but my culture and language are not going away.

ODEON123

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You're fighting a losing battle and you know it. English is the language of international culture, business, politics and science. English is the world's lingua fanca and the most learned second language. In the near future the English language will grow in strength, it will dominate the globe connecting people of all races and cultures, the new language of Babel while Irish will wither away and die like thousands of other minority languages.

You should probably learn a but more since English is the 3rd most spoken language in the world behind Chinese and Spanish please explain how it is the the language of internation culture blah blah blah, dont think it will become a dominant language since chinese is spoken by more then three times that of english so your argument isnt valid

Godge

ODEON123 wrote: »

You should probably learn a but more since English is the 3rd most spoken language in the world behind Chinese and Spanish please explain how it is the the language of internation culture blah blah blah, dont think it will become a dominant language since chinese is spoken by more then three times that of english so your argument isnt valid

But English is the biggest second language as anyone involved in business, international culture, international relations, travel, politics or science learns English.

gananam

Godge wrote: »

But English is the biggest second language as anyone involved in business, international culture, international relations, travel, politics or science learns English.

Sorry, but this is false. While English is a relatively common language spoken in these areas, to suggest that 'anyone' involved in those areas speaks it, is laughable.

ancapailldorcha

For science, a lot of jobs in Germany, France, etc are advertised with the working language being English due to the international and collaborative nature of the profession.

katydid

gananam wrote: »

Sorry, but this is false. While English is a relatively common language spoken in these areas, to suggest that 'anyone' involved in those areas speaks it, is laughable.

MOST do. You are at a serious disadvantage in these areas if you don't have a good working knowledge of spoken and written English.

katydid

ODEON123 wrote: »

You should probably learn a but more since English is the 3rd most spoken language in the world behind Chinese and Spanish please explain how it is the the language of internation culture blah blah blah, dont think it will become a dominant language since chinese is spoken by more then three times that of english so your argument isnt valid

The amount of people speaking a language isn't a measure of its dominance. Spanish is spoken more than English because of its dominance in South America, but it is by no means anything like as dominant in a global context. The same with Chinese; it is growing in importance, but English is the lingua franca of the global community. There is no denying that, whether or not we like it.

gananam

katydid wrote: »

MOST do. You are at a serious disadvantage in these areas if you don't have a good working knowledge of spoken and written English.

I highly doubt it, and even if true, most is quite a way from all, as the poster claimed.

In any case, this is not relevant to the thread topic.

Iwasfrozen

ODEON123 wrote: »

You should probably learn a but more since English is the 3rd most spoken language in the world behind Chinese and Spanish please explain how it is the the language of internation culture blah blah blah, dont think it will become a dominant language since chinese is spoken by more then three times that of english so your argument isnt valid

Read what I wrote. Read what you're actually qoteing.

"English is the world's lingua fanca and the most learned second language."

Do you deny English is the word's most learned second language?

Chinese is not a global language and never will be. First off the number of foreigners learning Chinese as a second language is very small compared to English. It's a tonal language which makes it hard to learn as a second language as most languages are not tonal and it's writing system is largely incompatible with the much more widely understood Latin alphabet.

Chinese may be dominant in China but English is a truly open, universal and multi cultural language. Something Chinese (or Irish) will never be.

katydid

gananam wrote: »

I highly doubt it, and even if true, most is quite a way from all, as the poster claimed.

In any case, this is not relevant to the thread topic.

You can doubt all you like, but it is fact. It may not be all, but it certainly is most.

"It is the world's second largest native language, the official language in 70 countries, and English-speaking countries are responsible for about 40% of world's total GNP. "

http://www.omniglot.com/language/articles/engunilang.php


Whether or not it is relevant to this thread doesn't negate the fact that you are wrong

Iwasfrozen

gananam wrote: »

Sorry, but between your self and the supreme court, I think i'm going to trust the supreme court.
You can call you ill-informed opinion 'knowledge' if you want, but its not much to go by if you ask me.

The Supreme court cannot legislate against article 8.3 or rule in direct contradiction of legislation unless the legislation is in breach of the constitution. If the government were to enact legislation empowering article 8.3 to provide services only in English this would not be unconstitutional. Do you disagree?

False.

True. I can write one word responses too.

If you are claiming to ability to predict the future, then there is really no point talking to you. If someone predicted, centuries ago, that the Irish language was dyeing and yet it lives on today, its fairly safe to say that the person who maid the claim was wrong.

Oh, is there? You realize something can be dying for a very long time before it dies? Particularly language.

If a person said in the mid 19th century that Irish was dying they would be correct. They would also be correct pre WWI and post WWII and correct today.

Good question, I haven't been near A&E for years, I will have to ask them.

Do. And get back to me.

Who are you to tell me if my use of Irish in social contexts is 'forced'? The only language I was ever forced to speak is English.

I'm an observer. Do you disagree with my statement? Why?

English is the language of this country. Imagine going to Germany and complaining that the people speak German! Or more accurately, complaining that they don't provide you state services in Sorbian in Cologne.

Actually the English language has already started the process of falling apart. In another few hundred years there wont be an English language, just a family of languages that stem from English. That is part of the natural evolution of language, much the same thing happened to Latin.

I disagree. Latin deviated for a many number of social and technological issues that don't apply today. Today we can communicate to all corners o the world instantaneously. We're connected not only socially but politically and culturally, this is an environment that lends itself to unity and universalism, not the localism and tribalism that preceded and aggravated the fraction of Latin.

Thanks for confirming the intolerant nature of you beliefs. You might not think there is any room for my language or culture, but my culture and language are not going away.

Obviously I see you as the ignorant one. Over 3,500 languages expected to die over the next century? You think your language won't follow soon?
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/18/world/18cnd-language.html?_r=0

On the other hand English is constantly changing and evolving as it absorbs words, phrases and customs of desperate groups of people. No other language is more diverse. English has 250,000 distinct words. How many does Irish have?

gananam

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The Supreme court cannot legislate against article 8.3 or rule in direct contradiction of legislation unless the legislation is in breach of the constitution. If the government were to enact legislation empowering article 8.3 to provide services only in English this would not be unconstitutional. Do you disagree?

'If the government were to...' that is the key part of your post, the government has not, and we can be fairly confident that the government will not. If there government were ever foolish enough to try to make Irish a de facto unofficial language through legislation while it is still de jure an official language in the constitution, then it is almost certain that the Supreme Court would find that legislation unconstitutional despite article 8.3. Decisions on the constitution are not made based on one particular article without talking the rest of the constitution into account. Courts are very resistant to established rights being taken away and if the Government tried to withdraw Irish language rights, it would be simple enough to argue that such a move is repugnant to the spirit of the constitution, given the status of the language in the constitution.

This is a purely academic argument however, there is no legislation that seeks to cancel the language rights of Irish speakers. Irish speakers in today's Ireland have the right to access services in Irish. This is a simple fact.

Oh, is there? You realize something can be dying for a very long time before it dies? Particularly language.

Then you have a meaningless point, I can confidently predict that at some point in the future there will not be a single person alive that knows English, though it may well be centuries from now. You heard it here first folks, English is officially a dying language.

I'm an observer. Do you disagree with my statement? Why?

I find your statement to not be worth a response.

I disagree. Latin deviated for a many number of social and technological issues that don't apply today. Today we can communicate to all corners o the world instantaneously. We're connected not only socially but politically and culturally, this is an environment that lends itself to unity and universalism, not the localism and tribalism that preceded and aggravated the fraction of Latin.

I don't care if you agree or not, your opinion of the facts does not change the nature of those facts.

Obviously I see you as the ignorant one. Over 3,500 languages expected to die over the next century? You think your language won't follow soon?

That claim has been made, Irish wont be one of them. Might the Irish language die over the course of the coming centuries? Possibly, I'm not going to pointlessly engage in speculation on what will happen in a few hundred years time. I will be long dead and it wont concern me anyway.

ODEON123

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Read what I wrote. Read what you're actually qoteing.

"English is the world's lingua fanca and the most learned second language."

Do you deny English is the word's most learned second language?

Chinese is not a global language and never will be. First off the number of foreigners learning Chinese as a second language is very small compared to English. It's a tonal language which makes it hard to learn as a second language as most languages are not tonal and it's writing system is largely incompatible with the much more widely understood Latin alphabet.

Chinese may be dominant in China but English is a truly open, universal and multi cultural language. Something Chinese (or Irish) will never be.

Please explain how Chinese isnt a global language?

katydid

ODEON123 wrote: »

Please explain how Chinese isnt a global language?

Because it isn't the language of business, because English is much easier to learn and to use, and because it was initially spread throughout the world by the British empire.

eire4

katydid wrote: »

Because it isn't the language of business, because English is much easier to learn and to use, and because it was initially spread throughout the world by the British empire.

Actually English is not an easier or harder language to learn. It depends on where the speaker is coming from. If the speakers native language comes from a language related to English say German then it can be easier if however the speakers language is unrelated say Russian then it will be more difficult.

katydid

eire4 wrote: »

Actually English is not an easier or harder language to learn. It depends on where the speaker is coming from. If the speakers native language comes from a language related to English say German then it can be easier if however the speakers language is unrelated say Russian then it will be more difficult.

I know what you mean, but I believe it's still easier in general, because it doesn't have genders and not much declensions, so no confusing articles or nouns, which is a huge barrier. Of course, it has a lot of irregular grammar, but that doesn't seem to bother people too much...

Shep_Dog

gananam wrote: »

You really need to educate yourself on minority language rights.
A good place to start would be the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages.
For example, straight from the preamble:
''Considering that the right to use a regional or minority language in private and public life is an inalienable right conforming to the principles embodied in the United Nations International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and according to the spirit of the Council of Europe Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms; ''

So as we can see, it is held that members of a minority language community do indeed have a right to use their language both in the private and public sphere.

The critical fact in the above would be to define what a person's language is. It would be an abuse of the convention to use it to facilitate people who are not aboriginal native speakers and who are not in any practical way affected by having to use their actual native language (English).

gananam wrote: »

Rights granted in legislation can be removed by legislation, but there is little chance of that happening in the case of Irish. As for government inaction, that's what courts are for. There is a list of cases that Irish speakers have taken against the state to vindicate their rights to use Irish. A notable one in 2001 essentially forced the states hand in enacting the OLA.

The North can learn from mistakes made in the South where onerous obligations have been created and absurd situations have ensued. One way that could prevent abuse of the OLA or its proposed equivalent in the North would be to officially certify genuine native speakers whose human rights should be protected under the convention. People wishing to undergo cultural re-assignment by switching from English to Irish as their official language should be required to undergo a proficiency test.