Towing question - how do I find out trailer DGVW.

CiniO

So I'll need to tow a trailer tomorrow. My friend is borrowing it from his neighbour.
My car (Civic) is rated to tow 1500kg. Cars own D.G.V.W = 1890kg.
My licence is B (I don't have BE).

So my licence limits me to tow a set with DGVW of 3500kg, so trailer DGVW can be maximum 1610kg.
However car can only tow 1500kg.

Now - trailer itself weights probably between 500-700kg (I guess).
Load is going to be minimal - up to 100kg. So I definitely won't exceed car towing capacities.

But how can I find out trailer D.G.V.W if this is an old trailer without any plates on it. It was probably home made, and as far as I'm aware that kind of trailers are still legal on Irish roads.

So how can I know if trailer DGVW doesn't exceed 1610kg (which I legally can't exceed on my licence) and how would a gard know that is does if he wants to do me for driving with unadequate trailer (just in case)?

CJ Haughey

Home made trailers are in a very grey area, can you go to your local dump/recycling centre tomorrow and get it weighed on their weighbridge.

mgbgt1978

CJ Haughey.The actual weight of the empty trailer has no bearing here.
Cinio,is it a single or double-axle trailer ?
What size is it (eg. 8'x4') ?
Has it got Brakes ?

If there is no sign of a plate on it, there's nothing to stop you stamping/engraving a D.G.V.W. of say 1,200kg on a bit of aluminium and rivetting it on.

CiniO

CJ Haughey wrote: »

Home made trailers are in a very grey area, can you go to your local dump/recycling centre tomorrow and get it weighed on their weighbridge.

I could. But this will only give me trailer own weight.
It won't give me D.G.V.W (design gross vehicle weight) which trailer was built for. And that's a parameter that matters if I can or can not tow this trailer on my licence.

CiniO

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

CJ Haughey.The actual weight of the empty trailer has no bearing here.
Cinio,is it a single or double-axle trailer ?
What size is it (eg. 8'x4') ?
Has it got Brakes ?

It is double axle.
It is indeed 8'x4'
And it has got brakes (btw my car is rated only up to 500kg trailers without brakes)

If there is no sign of a plate on it, there's nothing to stop you stamping/engraving a D.G.V.W. of say 1,200kg on a bit of aluminium and rivetting it on.

Heh you mean I could stamp it myself? Hmm that's interesting idea.

mgbgt1978

An 8x4 double axle with brakes would usually have a DGVW of 2,500kg (depending on the weight capacity of the leaf springs).
However, if it's not marked anywhere then there's no reason why you can't give it a marked DGVW of 1,200kg.

CJ Haughey

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

CJ Haughey.The actual weight of the empty trailer has no bearing here.

It does actually, if the empty trailer weights 2 ton for example the op could not use it. Who knows without weighing them how heavy home made trailers are.

CiniO

CJ Haughey wrote: »

It does actually, if the empty trailer weights 2 ton for example the op could not use it. Who knows without weighing them how heavy home made trailers are.

The one I'm talking about is definitely not above 1000kg.
I'm guessing about 500-700kg.

It's something like on the picture (similar construction and size), but it's homemade and old.

mgbgt1978

No car trailer will weigh 2 tons empty.

The trailer descrbed by Cinio will weigh 600kg at most.

mullingar

With home made old trailers it's best guess to what the designed gvw is by examining the chassis, coupler, suspension and tyres/axles.

If you are stopped how is the garda going to know what it the dgvw is?

This is one of the reasons behind weight plating all new trailers.

If it's a light-duty twin axle trailer than I personally would tow it on a B. If it's heavy like a proper builders trailer then no.

quietsailor

Bear in mind that even if your load is 100kg and the load + trailer is within all your licence limits if the trailer is DESIGNED to carry more the guards can pull you over for being overloaded - because your trailer is capable of taking more weight than your licence allows you to tow

CiniO wrote: »

So I'll need to tow a trailer tomorrow. My friend is borrowing it from his neighbour.
My car (Civic) is rated to tow 1500kg. Cars own D.G.V.W = 1890kg.
My licence is B (I don't have BE).

So my licence limits me to tow a set with DGVW of 3500kg, so trailer DGVW can be maximum 1610kg.
However car can only tow 1500kg.

Now - trailer itself weights probably between 500-700kg (I guess).
Load is going to be minimal - up to 100kg. So I definitely won't exceed car towing capacities.

But how can I find out trailer D.G.V.W if this is an old trailer without any plates on it. It was probably home made, and as far as I'm aware that kind of trailers are still legal on Irish roads.

So how can I know if trailer DGVW doesn't exceed 1610kg (which I legally can't exceed on my licence) and how would a gard know that is does if he wants to do me for driving with unadequate trailer (just in case)?

CiniO

quietsailor wrote: »

Bear in mind that even if your load is 100kg and the load + trailer is within all your licence limits if the trailer is DESIGNED to carry more the guards can pull you over for being overloaded - because your trailer is capable of taking more weight than your licence allows you to tow

I'm fully aware of this, and pretty much that's the subject of this whole thread.
Because how can I know what trailer "is designed" to carry if it's home made and there isn't any plate on it?

If there was a plate of DGVW of 1600kg I'd knew I could tow it. It there was plate with 1700kg I know I couldn't.
But as there isn't any plate, I just don't know.

CJ Haughey

This is the problem with home made trailers, imo this is part of the reason why they want to introduce testing for trailers. Its wreckless what some people are towing, from minor things like no lights to ones with brakes not working and hitches beyond the wear limit.
That is something you should check tomomorrow the hitch wear indicator, and it has a device capable of automatically stopping the trailer if it becomes detached while in motion—i.e., a breakaway cable.

TrailerBob

No lights drives me to the point of biting my own arm... It's not that feckin hard to get 2 tail lights working at the very least.

As for the home-made trailer, its probably built by some engineering guy in his spare time with decent parts. it's most likely that any half well built 8x4 will have a dgvw of about 2 tons, perhaps a bit more. It's the axles and towing gear that determines most of it. Is a Garda likely to stop you... Who knows. Is it illegal to tow it with your civic... Probably. Are you going to tow it anyway... Probably. Laws are fine.. And the trailer laws I agree with. Enforcement is very low though.

Last weekend I watched a chap with a Laguna pull a 14 foot ifor Williams with a full bale of 4x2 timber lengths on it. The car was on its knees... Drove past a traffic corps car with the hair dryer out. He should have been pulled....

CiniO

TrailerBob wrote: »

As for the home-made trailer, its probably built by some engineering guy in his spare time with decent parts. it's most likely that any half well built 8x4 will have a dgvw of about 2 tons, perhaps a bit more. It's the axles and towing gear that determines most of it. Is a Garda likely to stop you... Who knows. Is it illegal to tow it with your civic... Probably. Are you going to tow it anyway... Probably. Laws are fine.. And the trailer laws I agree with. Enforcement is very low though.

Laws in regards weights and who can tow what and with what are fine.
But problem is, that if laws setting limits on trailer weights are there, we also should have laws forcing every trailers on public roads, to be properly plated with those weights. And that's unfortunately not the case.

CJ Haughey

Has the trailer got a parking brake? as many homemade trailers don't.

TrailerBob

But this is Ireland.... The land where everything will be grand..... It should have been made illegal to tow an unplated trailer 20 years ago. But it's not a priority. It won't change very soon either. It's also true that almost nobody in this country would worry half this much about bringing an 8x4 trailer out to do one job... Doesn't make it right, but that's the way it is.

ArraMusha

For a Passat which is rated to tow a max of 2000kg (according to the manual) can I tow a trailer that has a DGVW(Designed Gross Vehicle weight) of 2700kg?

The RSA website says the combined DGVW weight of car and trailer cannot exceed 3500kg. The car weights 1422kg empty, so the combined would be 4122kg !


However I am not sure after reading the other posts above if the wording allows for say the trailer empty (400kg) + 400kg load. The combined in this case is them 2222kg, well below the limit

mgbgt1978

If you have a Category B licence you are not legally allowed to tow this Trailer with this Car.

If you have a Category BE licence then you may tow this trailer with the Passat provided that the actual Gross weight of the trailer (the trailer plus what's currently in it) does not exceed 2,000kg.
The BE licence ignores the DGVW and just concentrates on the current GVW being towed (along with the rated towing capacity of the Tow Car).

mullingar

Must be a half decent Passat for a 2000kg load. What engine/version is it?

I had a quick look on Parker's and all 05+ passats have a 1400kg for smaller petrol/diesels, 1800kg for any 2.0.

Best thing is to check the weight plate under the bonnet. Just subtract the two biggest numbers and this is the max trailer+load weight than can be pulled.

ArraMusha

mullingar wrote: »

Must be a half decent Passat for a 2000kg load. What engine/version is it?

I had a quick look on Parker's and all 05+ passats have a 1400kg for smaller petrol/diesels, 1800kg for any 2.0.

Best thing is to check the weight plate under the bonnet. Just subtract the two biggest numbers and this is the max trailer+load weight than can be pulled.

Took a look under the bonnet but couldnt see the 'weight plate'?? In the car manual a 103kw diesel engine 140bhp, can tow 2000kg on an 8% gradient..its savage alright. But as was mentioned above only a BE License would be legal.

mullingar

The weight plate is the main chassis plate and looks like this:



That example only allows a 3280kg-1980kg=1300kg

I'm not sure on the passat manual if it's specific for your engine/gearbox or if it's generic across different engines, but it's always the weight/chassis plate you should go by.

TrailerBob

Yeah, most passats are between 1300 and 1600 kg towing capacity. I had a 130hp tdi before and it was 1400 I think. It will almost always be less than the dgvw of the car itself. So it's unlikely to have a 2000kg capacity.

I've a feeling the older 4 motion v6 tdi might have that capacity

mullingar

TrailerBob wrote: »

Yeah, most passats are between 1300 and 1600 kg towing capacity. I had a 130hp tdi before and it was 1400 I think. It will almost always be less than the dgvw of the car itself. So it's unlikely to have a 2000kg capacity.

I've a feeling the older 4 motion v6 tdi might have that capacity

My car has 3820kg/1820kg dgvw weights so plated to tow 2000kg

Desolation Of Smug

Don't go up North towing too much. I got a hefty fine today for that. Snitty feckers.

_Brian

The truth is with these home made trailers its a huge grey area.. by the description OP gives I'd say its a fairly standard "builders trailer" and so my feeling on this is that its DGVW is much more than a regular B license allows.

The thing is being stopped roadside, if a garda asks you to prove the DGVW you can't, more likely than not then in the absence of proof he'll presume its incorrect and you could be in a spot of bother..

What are the chances of this happening ??

I asked my insurance about towing a trailer, no problem providing its within the limits of my license. Now with a standard B license I'd expect I'm not covered to pull my 30 year old home made "builders trailer". I use it a bit but not too much, I usually opt for a smaller single axle trailer if the load will fit.

mullingar

Desolation Of Smug wrote: »

Don't go up North towing too much. I got a hefty fine today for that. Snitty feckers.

What did they get you on?

The car weight limit or your licence weight limit?

Desolation Of Smug

mullingar wrote: »

What did they get you on?

The car weight limit or your licence weight limit?

Two, actually. Trailer overloaded and van overloaded. Licence was grand. It was 2 ton too, which got spendy....had a "C" licence and trailer "provisional...."

CiniO

_Brian wrote: »

The truth is with these home made trailers its a huge grey area.. by the description OP gives I'd say its a fairly standard "builders trailer" and so my feeling on this is that its DGVW is much more than a regular B license allows.

The thing is if it's not plated, how can anyone know what DGVW is.
You can't really say what DGVW is if it's not there.

The thing is being stopped roadside, if a garda asks you to prove the DGVW you can't, more likely than not then in the absence of proof he'll presume its incorrect and you could be in a spot of bother..

I can't prove that DGVW is below the limit. He can't prove it's above.
It's kinda nonsense situation.

What are the chances of this happening ??

Being stopped by the gard? Virutally 0%. No police present in the west of the country.


Anyway - it was few weeks ago, and I towed it no problem.
Trailer was bit old, but did the job.
Here's the picture - judge yourself what is its DGVW.

CiniO

Desolation Of Smug wrote: »

Two, actually. Trailer overloaded and van overloaded. Licence was grand. It was 2 ton too, which got spendy....had a "C" licence and trailer "provisional...."

So you had CE driving permit?
You'd need qualified CE driver with you to make it legal... (or at least BE qualified if you were towing a trailer up to 3500kg with van.
And if it was ROI driving permit, it wouldn't be valid in the north.

TrailerBob

^^^ first in to say you should use ratchet straps for securing a load.. Think of the children!!

CiniO

TrailerBob wrote: »

^^^ first in to say you should use ratchet straps for securing a load.. Think of the children!!

I probably should have.
Is this a legal requirement or just a good practice?

Load was light enough and secure as hell

CJ Haughey

What musuem did you borrow the trailer from?

TrailerBob

All in jest...

But yes, good practice tbh. A rope, no matter how well tied will not do the job of a ratchet. The force they apply is so far beyond anything you can do with a rope by hand. Plus they lock in position. Of course they can loosen... Had a 5ton strap come loose on the M20 in England at 50mph... Caught in the front wheel and kicked that side of the trailer a foot off the ground.. Turned out the spring in the locking mechanism popped out.

CiniO

CJ Haughey wrote: »

What musuem did you borrow the trailer from?

Well I don't exactly live in New York.
This is Mayo. That's how people live here and that's what they tow behind them. This trailer wouldn't be really much below average of trailers you see around.

CiniO

TrailerBob wrote: »

All in jest...

But yes, good practice tbh. A rope, no matter how well tied will not do the job of a ratchet. The force they apply is so far beyond anything you can do with a rope by hand. Plus they lock in position. Of course they can loosen... Had a 5ton strap come loose on the M20 in England at 50mph... Caught in the front wheel and kicked that side of the trailer a foot off the ground.. Turned out the spring in the locking mechanism popped out.

I'll get a set of ratchet straps then for next time.
I'm sure you can tight them properly, but this load was only about 60kg and we tied it so tight you couldn't move it a bit (and we tried hard).
It also didn't fly away at 120km/h (which I obviously tested on closed racing track just before joining main road to be sure it's secure)

TrailerBob

CiniO wrote: »

It also didn't fly away at 120km/h (which I obviously tested on closed racing track just before joining main road to be sure it's secure)

Cookie_Monster

god almighty why does it have to be so complicated?

had a look at the local rules to see what they say here, really simple:

NZTA wrote:

On a full licence the combined weight of your vehicle, the trailer and its load must not exceed 6000kg.

_Brian

CiniO wrote: »

The thing is if it's not plated, how can anyone know what DGVW is.
You can't really say what DGVW is if it's not there.



I can't prove that DGVW is below the limit. He can't prove it's above.
It's kinda nonsense situation.


Being stopped by the gard? Virutally 0%. No police present in the west of the country.


Anyway - it was few weeks ago, and I towed it no problem.
Trailer was bit old, but did the job.
Here's the picture - judge yourself what is its DGVW.

Similar to our own trailer, my opinion is it's too big for a B license.
I agree in chances of being caught.

And no offence but can you not say Garda, thankfully the Police are still confined to the six counties

CiniO

_Brian wrote: »

Similar to our own trailer, my opinion is it's too big for a B license.
I agree in chances of being caught.

Would fact that I have learner permit in CE help here?
I know in case trailer was too heavy for B it's still illegal for me to drive with it, but that would be now driving unaccompanied instead of driving unlicensed, wouldn't it?

And no offence but can you not say Garda, thankfully the Police are still confined to the six counties

Sorry... I don't know how this happened.

I said "gard" beforehand though

CJ Haughey

CiniO wrote: »

Would fact that I have driving permit in CE help here?

A CE licence is for a completely different vehicle is it not?

CiniO

CJ Haughey wrote: »

A CE licence is for a completely different vehicle is it not?

It is indeed.
But driving licence in CE automatically gives you entitlement to BE category.
I'm not sure though if learner permit in CE gives you entitlement to BE category on your learner permit though, that's why I'm asking.

CJ Haughey

CiniO wrote: »

It is indeed.
But driving licence in CE automatically gives you entitlement to BE category.
I'm not sure though if driving permit in CE gives you entitlement to BE category on your driving permit though, that's why I'm asking.

Ok im with you now, i think desolution of smug meant that he has full C and permit E

CiniO

CJ Haughey wrote: »

Ok im with you now, i think desolution of smug meant that he has full C and permit E

Permit in CE.
To have this, you need to have full licence in C.
You can't apply for permit in CE before you have full C licence.
And that's exactly what I have.

But after looking up at legislations, it looks like driving permit in CE doesn't give entitlement to driving permit in BE.
So my driving permit in CE would be useless for towing a trailer behind car, even if I had fully qualified BE or CE driver with me.

CJ Haughey

CiniO wrote: »

Permit in CE.
To have this, you need to have full licence in C.
You can't apply for permit in CE before you have full C licence.
And that's exactly what I have.

C1E fits the bill, that be rigid plus trailer. If one has a full C its surely possible to apply and have a provisional C1E.

CiniO

CJ Haughey wrote: »

C1E fits the bill, that be rigid plus trailer. If one has a full C its surely possible to apply and have a provisional C1E.

See, but here's the problem.
Both C1E and CE apply to towing vehicles above 3500kg (D.G.V.W).

And while full licence in C1E or CE will give you full licence in BE so you can tow with your car, but driving permit in C1E or CE won't give you driving permit in BE, so you can't use it for towing with a car or van (below 3500kg DGVW).

So if you have C licence, then apply for permit in CE, pass your driving test, and then you can tow with a car, van or truck.
But before you pass your driving test, and hold only driving permit in C1E or CE, you don't have entitlement to permit in BE to tow with cars or vans.

PS. C1E is not rigid truck + trailer.
It's rigid truck up to 7500kg with trailer where total DGVW of the set is up to 12000kg

CE is a unlimited truck + trailer licence where you can tow whatever you like.

No point really in applying for C1E if you have C already just apply straight for CE.

CJ Haughey

Alot to digest there CiniO but your post is very informative and I can see the logic in it too that having a provisional in C1E does not cover you in BE makes sense.
Interestng to hear desolation of smug case he said he was 2 tonne, was it 2 tonne over weight of his van and trailer maybe?

Desolation Of Smug

CJ Haughey wrote: »

Alot to digest there CiniO but your post is very informative and I can see the logic in it too that having a provisional in C1E does not cover you in BE makes sense.
Interestng to hear desolation of smug case he said he was 2 tonne, was it 2 tonne over weight of his van and trailer maybe?

I wasn't driving tbh, and it was an Iveco van plated at 7700 max train weight, twin wheels on rear. The van was over as was the trailer...:o The chap driving had the correct licence, rigid with a trailer, CE so? Anyway, the fine was for over-weight for vehicle combination, not licence, everything else was in order.

CiniO

Desolation Of Smug wrote: »

I wasn't driving tbh, and it was an Iveco van plated at 7700 max train weight, twin wheels on rear. The van was over as was the trailer...:o The chap driving had the correct licence, rigid with a trailer, CE so? Anyway, the fine was for over-weight for vehicle combination, not licence, everything else was in order.

Well discussion arose from fact you mentioned driver didn't have a licence but just learners permit in CE.
If he had CE licence, then he was fully entitled to tow the set (obviously not overweight)

CJ Haughey

From post 28

Two, actually. Trailer overloaded and van overloaded. Licence was grand. It was 2 ton too, which got spendy....had a "C" licence and trailer "provisional...."

Why would you refer to your licence if another person was driving?

Bpmull

For some reason I always though you just couldn't pull double axle trailers at all when you had just a B licence. We have a single axle trailer but I say I tow it about 3 times a year and never have that much in it (400-500kg max). Still I always have a few ratchet straps in the car waste of time trying to use rope etc to secure loads. Although the amount of people that use trailers all the time and still don't have a trailer cover or proper set of ratchet straps is unreal.