Hanson marathon method

kookiebrew

Just wondering is anyone on or have used the Hanson marathon method... Doin my first marathon this yr and I've decided to try this plan...

rom

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=88855973
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=78950332

How much running and cycling do you plan to do on a weekly basis or are doing now?

Amadeus 2014

Interesting, not a plan I had come across before.

As with most "revolutionary" plans there is nothing particularly new in here - in fact it seems to have quite a lot in common with the Furman approach of focussing on a few targeted sessions a week rather than blindly logging miles. I like the simplicity of the plan and the fact that so much of it is focussed as MP training. From the little I have read it does seem to presuppose some level of knowledge (it doesn't define speed or strength training but leaves them to you, for example) but that could be a lack of google skill on my part. My main concern is the obvious one of lack of long runs. Not sure I'd recommend it for a novice but if you're a seasoned middle distance runner with a multiple of halfs under your belt and a history of moderate high volume weekly training then you could do a lot worse.

overpronator

It should also be noted that the professional men and women of the Hanson's distance project do not follow this method in terms of long runs. They formulated it for runners with lower bases who struggle to recover adequately from the classic 20mile LSR so the quality stuff midweek doesn't suffer.

aero2k

I'm following it for Rotterdam - this will be my 10th marathon. I wouldn't recommend it for first timers.

Contrary to some of the opinions on the two linked threads, racing is discouraged. There is a huge emphasis on MP work, every Thurs for 15 out of 18 weeks. Tue has 9 weeks of speed (5-10k pace) intervals followed by 7 weeks of strength (MP-10 sec/mile). Long runs are every second Sun and are pretty quick, MP + 30 sec or so.

I've had good success with P & D in the past, but I want to move up a level and since fast running has always been my weakness I'm drawn to a plan that includes lots of it. The only real test so far has been the Trim 10 mile where I had a 56 sec PB. I'm also doing MP runs about 10 sec/mile quicker than previously, with a relatively low HR. The 16 mile longest run is a huge gamble, but it is meant to be done on tired legs, and besides I'm curious. Only time will tell.

If you're serious about running the book is well worth a read, even if only to say "that approach is not for me".

kookiebrew

Cheers guys I actually got the book when I decided to do the plan, really goes into detail on everything and sets a pace for every run your doing including speed/strength and tempo runs all based on your goal pace. I'm into week 7 of the plan and loving it. Did numerous short distance runs last yr including three half marathons so my base was pretty ok goin into it. Been running all through the winter too. Running six days a week doesn't really bother me either. Based on my three halfs, quickest being 1:46 my marathon goal pace is 3:50.

The book goes into detail about where the 16 miles comes from and the whole plan is based on cumulative fatigue, running in tired legs. Did a lot of research on it before I decided and a lot of what they say makes a lot of sense.

Read a lot of criticism about it too though, mostly from people who haven't actually used it which is why I'm asking if anyone has actually used it.

demfad

aero2k wrote: »

I'm following it for Rotterdam - this will be my 10th marathon. I wouldn't recommend it for first timers.

Contrary to some of the opinions on the two linked threads, racing is discouraged. There is a huge emphasis on MP work, every Thurs for 15 out of 18 weeks. Tue has 9 weeks of speed (5-10k pace) intervals followed by 7 weeks of strength (MP-10 sec/mile). Long runs are every second Sun and are pretty quick, MP + 30 sec or so.

I've had good success with P & D in the past, but I want to move up a level and since fast running has always been my weakness I'm drawn to a plan that includes lots of it. The only real test so far has been the Trim 10 mile where I had a 56 sec PB. I'm also doing MP runs about 10 sec/mile quicker than previously, with a relatively low HR. The 16 mile longest run is a huge gamble, but it is meant to be done on tired legs, and besides I'm curious. Only time will tell.

If you're serious about running the book is well worth a read, even if only to say "that approach is not for me".

The idea of splitting the long run into a double (sat and sunday) is sensible. The same approach works for ultras where the lenght of the target race means that its necessary to split the long run.

The popular special/specific blocks in marathon training now also has the same principle:
The effective load of the single run is too much so it is split.

I wonder is there any nutritional instructions around the weekend?

One issue id see is the primary importance of accumulated fatigue. If a key run is missed during the week the weekend long run becomes too easy. In this case it shouldnt be run faster, but should be run longer to achieve the desired adaption.

Training schedules are just an approximation of what might transpire. I hope the book is clear enough on the methods so that the runner is able to manipulate some of those runs if the week hasnt gone to plan.

kookiebrew

The book has a chapter on modifying the plan, increased mileage or days missed etc... Goes into nutrition, hydration, clothes, shoes, race tactics, even post race recovery... Can't compare it to anything as its my first marathon book but it seems to cover everything and was actually a good read even if I wasn't doin the plan...

Plan has three days of sos (something of substance) runs... Speed/strength, tempo and long... Also says no one run is more important as another, the slow days play just as important a role as the sos runs. Every run is dictated by pace and it warns to stick to your pace not to run too quick on your slow runs, something I found hard to get used to. Checking my watch every 30secs to make sure.

aero2k

demfad wrote: »

One issue id see is the primary importance of accumulated fatigue. .

Just to point out to those who haven't read the book and/or tried the plan, it's not just accumulated fatigue with respect to doing 16 miles on a Sunday after 8 on the Saturday. It's a fast 16 miles after a brisk run the day before after 14 miles incl 10 @ MP on Thurs after 2 x 3 miles @ MP - 10sec on Tue after several weeks of something similar. My legs are fairly tired all the time, and I definitely wouldn't manage to run quick on Mon, Wed or Fri, but I think the fact that the SOS days come round so quickly makes you just get into the habit of doing the miles without over-thinking. In fact simplicity is the big attraction.

@OP - Sorry I didn't mean to sound harsh when I said I wouldn't recommend it to a first timer. I had forgotten that the book includes two plans, beginners and advanced, and whatever your level you'll benefit from following a structured plan rather than taking an ad hoc approach.

kookiebrew

Also has a chapter at the end for elite runners. People seem to knock it because they say 16 miles max for a long run is way too short but in fact they get this figure from a percentage of your total weekly mileage,long runs shouldn't be more than 30% of your weekly mileage. Also they say it's proven that running 2-3 hrs reduces glycogen levels by something like 50% and takes your body 3 days to recover from. While it would be ok to run 20-22 miles in two hrs for some for others it could take 3 or more hrs and be counterproductive leading to overtraining and injury.

Reading this is why I decided to go with this plan.It seemed to make sense to me. Hopefully it works or else I'm wasting 18 wks of hard work just to fall flat on my face.

I really love the way every run is structured though. You know your distance and pace for every run.

demfad

aero2k wrote: »

Just to point out to those who haven't read the book and/or tried the plan, it's not just accumulated fatigue with respect to doing 16 miles on a Sunday after 8 on the Saturday. It's a fast 16 miles after a brisk run the day before after 14 miles incl 10 @ MP on Thurs after 2 x 3 miles @ MP - 10sec on Tue after several weeks of something similar. My legs are fairly tired all the time, and I definitely wouldn't manage to run quick on Mon, Wed or Fri, but I think the fact that the SOS days come round so quickly makes you just get into the habit of doing the miles without over-thinking. In fact simplicity is the big attraction.

That makes sense. There is more work done during the week so there is more accumulated fatigue. On Sunday, the runner is still tired from Thursday so the effect of that long run is enhanced particularly as the Thursday work was specific also.

My concern was that if the Thursday session (for example) was missed for whatever reason then the Sunday run would have to be altered (made longer most likely) to have the same affect.

The OP says that the book addresses and advises on this.
Good schedule for masters too Id say.

BTW You said that your legs were tired all the time but just for curiosity is there any days where you feel the least tired/most tired? What sessions do you find hardest/easiest and what easy days are you most rested after?

aero2k

@demfad:

Yes, the author is pragmatic - I think we all understand the difficulty of following an 18 week plan to the letter. My last two marathon cycles went really well, but I missed a few days in one due to falling on my kneecap, and for the second one I missed a week and a goal race due to a chest infection.

The only Thursday session I've missed this time round was the week of the Trim 10 mile. That week's schedule had 3 x 1600m (5-10k pace) on Tue, 7miles @MP on Thurs (+ wu and cd) and 10 easy on Sun, so following the advice in the book I did the easy 10 on the Thursday and let Sunday's race fill the place of MP miles. A compromise for sure, but a reasonable one.

I don't want to overstate the tired legs - it's a subjective thing, and this program has definitely got me used to running quickly (by my standards) on tired legs. Tuesday is always my most difficult day, though that might be because I've always struggled to run fast. That said, I find 12 x 400 a lot easier than 4 x 1200, if the pace for both is the same. My best sessions have been the Thursday MP runs, I've been at or faster than target on every one so far. Sunday is probably the day I feel best, but that might be as much to do with it being the weekend rather than just an effect of the training program.

I don't want to come across as an evangelist - I'm following the program as I realise that I need to do something different if I want different results, and the amount of fast running ticks some boxes for me, however subjectively I feel better than ever, and my recent 10 mile time gives a McMillan marathon equivalent 6 min quicker than anything I've managed to date, so it's certainly not doing too much harm.

kookiebrew

Do you mind me asking what week are you on in the plan Aero...

aero2k

kookiebrew wrote: »

Do you mind me asking what week are you on in the plan Aero...

Not at all. I've just started week 10 of 18.

kookiebrew

Did you find the tired legs start gradually, I know the advanced plan starts speed work early on but I did my second speed day today but my legs dont feel that tired, I'm into week 7 now.... Was thinking the speed work might be a factor... I'm probably gonna regret saying this but I thought it would be a lot tougher...

aero2k

kookiebrew wrote: »

Did you find the tired legs start gradually, I know the advanced plan starts speed work early on but I did my second speed day today but my legs dont feel that tired, I'm into week 7 now.... Was thinking the speed work might be a factor... I'm probably gonna regret saying this but I thought it would be a lot tougher...

Yep, the tired legs sort of crept up on me. I started the program mid Dec, so the first couple of hard sessions were over Christmas when I was off work, which probably helped a little. I don't want to overstate it, I'm not screaming in agony, they just feel slightly tender most of the time. I wouldn't notice it when I'm actually running, just afterwards.

I am running about 10-30 sec/mile faster than I've done before for similar sessions, so it's not really a surprise.

kookiebrew

I find pacing myself the hardest...keep goin too fast....speed today was supposed to be between 7:43 and 8:01... did the 8x600mtrs all around 7:05 mark... will be eager to see how I feel with tempo on Thursday

aero2k

In case anyone is interested, a comparison of my last 3 marathon training cycles:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8N2ILvWdxnoNmFwYWl4X2F1NW8/view?usp=sharing

kookiebrew

Did the limerick run today aero... Had trained for 3:50.. Came in 3:50:59.. And at that I had to stop for a few mins when my hammy cramped up...

Didn't miss a day in the plan and actually loved how structured it was. Had no injuries at all, few niggles but nothing to stop me..I'd call it a total success, was running even splits right up til I had to stop...

Saw you had a pb using this plan too... I'm gonna do the same run again next yr and use this plan again... I'd highly recommend it even for a beginner plan...

kookiebrew

That's a great comparison...you'd have to call the Hanson method a success

conavitzky

aero2k wrote: »

In case anyone is interested, a comparison of my last 3 marathon training cycles:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8N2ILvWdxnoNmFwYWl4X2F1NW8/view?usp=sharing

Do you think that the hard work of the two previous plans were the basis of your performance under the Hanson regime Or was it solely due to the hanson plan? Were you battle hardened after the previous intense campaigns and a slight ease off in intensity allowed you realise gains made under the previous plans?

aero2k

conavitzky wrote: »

Do you think that the hard work of the two previous plans were the basis of your performance under the Hanson regime Or was it solely due to the hanson plan? Were you battle hardened after the previous intense campaigns and a slight ease off in intensity allowed you realise gains made under the previous plans?

Great questions, unfortunately the only way to be really sure about the answers would be to potter around for 7 months or so, then start into Hanson followed by something else followed by P & D.:)

While the Hanson speed and strength paces based on my race target (approx 2:45) were slightly easier than some other plans, there were a lot of miles at those paces and a lot of MP miles, so it was by no means easy. I did find over the last year that any time I was struggling in a strength (MP -10 sec per mile) or MP session that my legs wanted to keep going even if my head said the pace was dropping - previously it's been the other way around.

The previous two cycles definitely provided an excellent foundation for another marathon, both physically and mentally. Although I'd been about 3 min off target in both Cork and Dublin (it was easy to figure out why for Dublin) I finished both races in good shape so I knew the body would take one more go, and so it was easy to convince myself that a really good result was possible next time out. This in turn made it easier to put in the hard miles.

aero2k

Well done on your PB!

kookiebrew wrote: »

That's a great comparison...you'd have to call the Hanson method a success

Yes, definitely, but there's no real way of knowing if another plan would have been equally successful.

One slight hiccup was the stiff legs and cramp threatening calves. This could have been due to the hard sessions late in the cycle, or due to a change of shoes too late in the day. It sounds like a schoolboy error but I bought the new versions of two pairs of shoes (Skechers Gorun 4 and GoMeb Speed 3) that I really loved about 4 weeks before the race. They felt fine for the first couple of runs but then I developed one sore calf. I was also blaming different walking footwear.

While it's tempting to say that this cost me 2-3 min on the day, it also meant I was forced to take it handy for the first half, which meant the possibility of a late race blow-up was much less.

kookiebrew

Quick question for you.... I know it's a long way off but I intend using same method for next years marathon... Should I take the step up to the advanced plan or stay on beginner and change my pace for every run... To be honest I didn't find the beginner plan as hard as I thought it would be... My legs were never that tired although saying that after the ten day taper they felt real fresh...

Taking it easy for next few weeks (got no choice I can barely walk today ) and gonna start training to get my half time down, thinking of doing the Killarney half in about ten weeks time... Planning on getting my base miles up in autumn and early winter and into the Hanson plan again in January. Had a quick look at the advanced plan and feel like I could give it a go...

aero2k

kookiebrew wrote: »

Quick question for you.... I know it's a long way off but I intend using same method for next years marathon... Should I take the step up to the advanced plan or stay on beginner and change my pace for every run Planning on getting my base miles up in autumn and early winter and into the Hanson plan again in January. Had a quick look at the advanced plan and feel like I could give it a go...

Why not see how you get on over the next several months? If you improve your half time that will give you an idea of your progress. The beginner's plan includes a lot more easy running over the first few weeks whereas the advanced plan has you into the hard stuff in week two.

Of course, severity depends on your target time. I'm sure I'd have found it a lot easier if I'd dropped the pace a bit...

I think either route will bring you some benefits - the main thing is not to overdo it and risk injury in the process.

kookiebrew

True it's a long way off yet to be thinking about it... Will leave it til December time and see where I stand...

Will you be using the plan again in the future?

aero2k

kookiebrew wrote: »

Will you be using the plan again in the future?

If I do another marathon, definitely yes. I might modify the taper bit slightly, I still need to figure out if the stiff legs on race day was due to the change of shoes or just an accumulation of all the hard sessions.

ooter

Hope it's okay to bump this thread?
Bought the book a few weeks ago, going to start the advanced programme this week for DCM 16.
Got injured last year about 4 weeks out having followed the P+D 55 mile plan and had to pull out, I reckon it was the higher mileage and consecutive days running that caused it. Obviously I'm worried that it might happen again but there seems to be a lot of "easy" runs in the plan so hopefully not.
Anyone else doing it for DCM?

kookiebrew

Ive used this plan again since my last post. I had great success with it. I used the beginner plan for my first marathon (Limerick 15), trained for 3:50 and came in 3:50:51.

I decided to work on getting my half pb down over the summer months last year (actually used the hanson half plan which is tougher than the full imo) and got it down to 1:34. According to the race chart in the book it said i should be able for a 3:20 full with this hm time so I decided to use the advanced plan for this years race.

Training went well but I had a few s**t weeks (not running related) and missed about a week in total but i still felt great going into the race.

Did a stupid thing and decided to go with the 3:15 pacers, kept up with them until about mile 16 or 17 and faded off. Ended up finishing the race in 3:24 which was over 26 mins faster than the previous year.

Dont let all the easy runs fool you. Your running 6 days a week and when the miles ramp up it does get very tough. The cumulative fatigue really kicks in and your running on tired legs all the time.

I really liked how structured the plan is and I would definitely recommend it. Will use it again for my next marathon.

This year after the advanced plan I was back running 3 days after the race and I didnt feel my legs that bad, recovery was great really.

ooter

Well done kookiebrew, that's a huge improvement and good endorsement of the plan.

aero2k

Sorry, getting to this a bit late as usual. I was waiting to make sure I had something to add to the thread before posting. I wanted to avoid my post being labeled stupid or my argument being called totally ridiculous.

Hello again kookiebrew,well done on a huge improvement.

kookiebrew wrote: »

That's a great comparison...you'd have to call the Hanson method a success

I was wary of being too positive after one outing, but now it's two-for-two (Rotterdam '15 and DCM '15). If I was to be picky I'd have to say I failed to achieve my goals (2:45 in each case), however I did manage to run 6 minutes faster than my previous PB.

conavitzky wrote: »

Do you think that the hard work of the two previous plans were the basis of your performance under the Hanson regime Or was it solely due to the hanson plan? Were you battle hardened after the previous intense campaigns and a slight ease off in intensity allowed you realise gains made under the previous plans?

I know I answered this above already but I can be more informative now. The Hanson plan was actually an increase in intensity from previous plans. Consistent training over a long period, particularly from mid '13 onwards, left me in very good shape for an increase in intensity, albeit with reasonable volume and never going beyond 1 hr 45min / 16 miles.

I think the real gains came from the weekly marathon paced miles - 120 in total.

kookiebrew wrote: »

True it's a long way off yet to be thinking about it... Will leave it till December time and see where I stand...

Will you be using the plan again in the future?

aero2k wrote: »

If I do another marathon, definitely yes. I might modify the taper bit slightly, I still need to figure out if the stiff legs on race day was due to the change of shoes or just an accumulation of all the hard sessions.

Following on from Rotterdam '15, I used the Hanson advanced plan again for DCM '15. Unlike Rotterdam where I ran every day and never missed a session, I did miss five days and two sessions due to illness. I slightly modified the taper so that I had one fast session on the Wednesday before the race and I didn't suffer the stiff legs that had dogged me in Rotterdam.

Race day itself had non-ideal conditions with a lot of headwind which I particularly hate, but I ran strongly throughout and knocked 29 sec off my PB. 2:48:35 to 2:48:06 doesn't sound like much of an improvement but given the conditions and the relative difficulty of the two courses I'd say it was worth a 3-4 min improvement assuming identical courses / conditions.

Again, I have to give a caveat. The plan worked very well for me, I believe for the following reasons:

• I love simplicity. Each week has a similar structure, and there are no complicated workouts.
• I committed to it fully, I parked any doubt and just did the workouts at paces appropriate to my target time. (This was even easier to do second time round as there was no doubt)
• I was very aerobically fit to start with.
• The plan deals directly with an area where I do have some natural ability, but I hadn't trained properly before, i.e. running at a steady relatively fast pace on tired legs.
• DCM '15 was very challenging as I ran about 18 miles of it in a small group. I had to accelerate many times to avoid losing contact, but I did it without thinking as I had done the very same, much more consciously, literally hundreds of times in training.

OP sorry for monopolising the thread - I hope my ramblings are helpful to you and others.

ooter

1 week in and I'm really feeling it in the legs, I've never ran 6 consecutive days before so I suppose it's to be expected.
Intervals this evening, hopefully nail them and a well needed rest tomorrow.

kookiebrew

ooter wrote: »

1 week in and I'm really feeling it in the legs, I've never ran 6 consecutive days before so I suppose it's to be expected.
Intervals this evening, hopefully nail them and a well needed rest tomorrow.

It's funny how you come to love Wednesdays and Tuesday becomes the last day of your week haha