Consultation on the introduction of 30 km/h Speed Limit in Residential Estates

porsche959

This was posted in Dublin forum but may be of interest for some posters on here.

For those who wish to make a submission, bear in mind Dublin already has the safest roads in Europe.

https://dlrcoco.citizenspace.com/transportation/consultation-on-the-introduction-of-30km-hr-speed/consult_view

Shep_Dog

porsche959 wrote: »

For those who wish to make a submission, bear in mind Dublin already has the safest roads in Europe.

That is not a relevant consideration. it's a 'glass half full' bit of spin, hiding the real situation.

We also have unacceptable levels of death and injury among vulnerable road users. Many citizens crossing the road are afraid to allow their children and grandchildren go outside in fear of the massive number of motorists who don't comply with safety laws.

Let's make Dublin a better place to live.

Boskowski

I'd be the first one against the more stupid aspects of these health and safety slow down cotton wool crazes in recent years. But honestly I can't see anything wrong with a 30 speed limit in residential housing estates.

uck51js9zml2yt

All for it.the problem is the enforcement.

I drive in Slovakia frequently and its a default 30 km once you enter a village or town.
Drive faster at your own peril. On the spot fines or your documents seized until you pay. Its a requirement to have them with you at all times in the car.

joujoujou

Boskowski wrote: »

[...] I can't see anything wrong with a 30 speed limit in residential housing estates.

Same here.

Lillianna Prehistoric Ribbon wrote: »

[...] the problem is the enforcement.

[...]

No enforcement necessary if appropriate infrastructure is built in, like speed bumps and many others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_zone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woonerf

Bigcheeze

joujoujou wrote: »

Same here.


No enforcement necessary if appropriate infrastructure is built in, like speed bumps and many others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_zone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woonerf

I'm in favour of 30 km limits inside housing estates. With cars parked on the streets I don't feel it's safe to drive any faster. But please let's not cover the roads in speed bumps.

Atlantic Dawn

They should put it at 30 ouside pubs during opening hours too.

Long Time Lurker

So long as its not abused by the authorities - like putting inappropriate limits on stretches of road where its seen as simply shooting fish in a barrel for speed vans - only then would I be confident in them. A residential area is exactly that. The 2km stretch of road leading to the residential area is not an appropriate place for a 30 zone. If its not implemented correctly then it'll simply he resented and that would surely defeat the purpose.

joujoujou

Bigcheeze wrote: »

[...] But please let's not cover the roads in speed bumps.

Did I mention speed bumps ONLY? Read the whole post and follow links. There are many more solutions to enforce speed reduction. :P

Pov06

Isn't there already a 30 km/h limit in residential areas?

At least that's what driving instructors teach and what driving testers require... If it's not already the limit then why is this information being taught? If it is already a law then why do we need another law?

Senecio

I don't see the need for consultation. Surely no one can provide a valid arguement against it?

whatawaster

Pov06 wrote: »

Isn't there already a 30 km/h limit in residential areas?

At least that's what driving instructors teach and what driving testers require... If it's not already the limit then why is this information being taught? If it is already a law then why do we need another law?

I was taught that 50 was the default in housing estates and that it was important not to drive too slowly as "progress" seems to be the most important aspect of our ridiculous testing system rather than "safety"

zbluebirdz

porsche959 wrote: »

This was posted in Dublin forum but may be of interest for some posters on here.

For those who wish to make a submission, bear in mind Dublin already has the safest roads in Europe.

https://dlrcoco.citizenspace.com/transportation/consultation-on-the-introduction-of-30km-hr-speed/consult_view

This is not for the whole of Dublin region - just Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County.

Special Circumstances

It will turn into revenue generation, fish in a barrel enforcement. There isn't enough smart enforcement targeted at actual dangerous,dumb or just plain ignorant drivers. The ones who'll still be treating housing estates with kids about the same as a main road even if most people can be convinced to drive a little slower in places where it's sensible.

ezra_pound

Special Circumstances wrote: »

It will turn into revenue generation, fish in a barrel enforcement. There isn't enough smart enforcement targeted at actual dangerous,dumb or just plain ignorant drivers. The ones who'll still be treating housing estates with kids about the same as a main road even if most people can be convinced to drive a little slower in places where it's sensible.

There is truth in what you're saying and it does to sine extent capture the reality. But it doesn't recognise the fact that the average law abiding person driving a car has in recent years become more and more unaware of the fact that they are driving through residential areas too fast. If the law is changed to make the average driver drive at a responsible speed then they will be made recognise the fact that it is simply irresponsible to drive through residential areas any faster.

It is quite scary sometimes just trying to get your kids into your car the way so many people drive not to mention walking to school or park with them.

People driving cars have been given the sense that car comes first in this country and often the logic is that I'm driving on a road so people or childrenwalking shouldn't be in my way. The fact is that there is always the danger that children in residential areas will unpredictably appear behind a parked car etc.

We need to force people to learn that cars don't always come first. This will help make all our roads safer as it will increase the awareness that people driving have of people walking and cycling in general, not just in residential areas.

Special Circumstances

Nicely put ezra_pound. I'm a complete cynic unfortunately - I don't believe the majority of irish people will ever make a small change to their own behaviour for the greater good without resenting it. Coupled with dumb enforcement in easy spots and inappropriate speed limits. Same old same old I'd say...

Victor

"Coupled with ... inappropriate speed limits." - you are being given the opportunity to change limits - all limits - so use it.

CiniO

Lillianna Prehistoric Ribbon wrote: »

All for it.the problem is the enforcement.

I drive in Slovakia frequently and its a default 30 km once you enter a village or town.

It's not 30km/h.
It's 50km/h.

Drive faster at your own peril. On the spot fines or your documents seized until you pay. Its a requirement to have them with you at all times in the car.

I think on the spot fines apply only to people not resident in Slovakia.
It's fairly common way of fining foreign drivers with on the spot fines. It operates nearly all over EU.

Pov06

whatawaster wrote: »

I was taught that 50 was the default in housing estates and that it was important not to drive too slowly as "progress" seems to be the most important aspect of our ridiculous testing system rather than "safety"

Must have sat your test a while back then

Special Circumstances

Victor wrote: »

"Coupled with ... inappropriate speed limits." - you are being given the opportunity to change limits - all limits - so use it.

Explain please.

Victor

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Explain please.

It's a public consultation. As a member of the public, you are being consulted. They are looking for suggestions on where speed limits can be changed. If you make a suggestion, and it is agreed with, it might be adopted.

Special Circumstances

Victor wrote: »

It's a public consultation. As a member of the public, you are being consulted. They are looking for suggestions on where speed limits can be changed. If you make a suggestion, and it is agreed with, it might be adopted.

Housing estates in the dun laoghaire rathdown area may be the extent of the country as far as you know it. But I don't think many other people would call it a review of "all speed limits". And, while it is a public consultation, they may place more weight on submissions from locals than those of is who have never been there.

I really don't think they'd appreciate an avalanche of complaints about "inappropriate speed limits" from here there and everywhere except their own jurisdiction.

Victor

Special Circumstances wrote: »

I really don't think they'd appreciate

'They' don't have a choice and must consider all submissions.

Special Circumstances

Victor wrote: »

'They' don't have a choice and must consider all submissions.

So you're saying I should submit a complaint about a road not in a housing estate, not in DLR area. To a consultation on speed limits in housing estates in the DLR area.

What about the terrible speeding I saw in Greece? Or that awful pothole in the Congo? Or the terrible spaghetti I was served in Galway one time? Or Cadbury roses just aren't the same anymore?

I think you've forced enough OT posts now.

Victor

Special Circumstances wrote: »

So you're saying I should submit a complaint about a road not in a housing estate, not in DLR area. To a consultation on speed limits in housing estates in the DLR area.

It is expected that every council will have a consultation this year. Submit it to the relevant council.

Special Circumstances

Loathe as I am to bring this thread back to page one, in case it descends into another "trying to draw blood from a turnip" session with one particular poster...


Bigcheeze's post here summed up my opinion on 30km limit in housing estates:

Bigcheeze wrote: »

I'm in favour of 30 km limits inside housing estates. With cars parked on the streets I don't feel it's safe to drive any faster. But please let's not cover the roads in speed bumps.

But it now appears that 20km/h is being considered. I think this is a mistake.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/donohoe-accepts-20km-h-residential-limit-in-principle-1.2107587

30km/h in general seems like a reasonable idea if it is implemented properly and that "long straight stretch with no houses or play areas etc and good visibility" isn't the only place the 30 limit is enforced.
Obviously there will be situations where even 30 is too much and you must use your common sense and go slower where the road is narrow and there are lots of parked cars for kids to dart out from or between, near play areas etc.
May not be explained very well but I think people with common sense will get what I 'm trying to say here.


20km/h as a blanket speed limit is a very awkward speed, achievable for short periods maybe but where do you start punishing people who drift above 20 because they were observing the road rather than watching the speedo like a hawk? 10% = 22km/h? 5km over = 25km/h? Do you need to try to aim for 15km/h just so you don't drift over 20 too far? Or is anything under 30km/h "grand"?

I just can't see it working, people on bikes will be passing you out unless they can enforce speed limits on cyclists too!

My gearbox will baulk if I try to put it into 2nd before 20km/h cold, I'm gonna be jumping and bucking around like a lowrider in 1st! If I put in second on the flat I think it would pull 20+ without me pushing the accelerator at all. Or cut out completely.

Any, that's my 2c - I generally consider myself a driver that drives to the conditions not to a magic inflexible number.

Caliden

In my old estate you'd be doing pretty well to even go 30kmh in the estate.

creedp

Special Circumstances wrote: »

I just can't see it working, people on bikes will be passing you out unless they can enforce speed limits on cyclists too!

My gearbox will baulk if I try to put it into 2nd before 20km/h cold, I'm gonna be jumping and bucking around like a lowrider in 1st! If I put in second on the flat I think it would pull 20+ without me pushing the accelerator at all. Or cut out completely.

Any, that's my 2c - I generally consider myself a driver that drives to the conditions not to a magic inflexible number.

+1

CiniO

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Loathe as I am to bring this thread back to page one, in case it descends into another "trying to draw blood from a turnip" session with one particular poster...


Bigcheeze's post here summed up my opinion on 30km limit in housing estates:



But it now appears that 20km/h is being considered. I think this is a mistake.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/donohoe-accepts-20km-h-residential-limit-in-principle-1.2107587

30km/h in general seems like a reasonable idea if it is implemented properly and that "long straight stretch with no houses or play areas etc and good visibility" isn't the only place the 30 limit is enforced.
Obviously there will be situations where even 30 is too much and you must use your common sense and go slower where the road is narrow and there are lots of parked cars for kids to dart out from or between, near play areas etc.
May not be explained very well but I think people with common sense will get what I 'm trying to say here.


20km/h as a blanket speed limit is a very awkward speed, achievable for short periods maybe but where do you start punishing people who drift above 20 because they were observing the road rather than watching the speedo like a hawk? 10% = 22km/h? 5km over = 25km/h? Do you need to try to aim for 15km/h just so you don't drift over 20 too far? Or is anything under 30km/h "grand"?

I just can't see it working, people on bikes will be passing you out unless they can enforce speed limits on cyclists too!

My gearbox will baulk if I try to put it into 2nd before 20km/h cold, I'm gonna be jumping and bucking around like a lowrider in 1st! If I put in second on the flat I think it would pull 20+ without me pushing the accelerator at all. Or cut out completely.

Any, that's my 2c - I generally consider myself a driver that drives to the conditions not to a magic inflexible number.

On the Continent, most residential areas are marked with that signs and AFAIK in those zones speed limit of 20km/h apply.
Nothing unreasonable about it, however I've never seen any speed checks in such areas.

H3llR4iser

As long as it doesn't become a "let's put 30 signs on 5km of road because there are three houses around it" scenario, whatever really. In proper residential estates, there simply isn't enough space to get anywhere above the 25-30 mark. Also, the road surface tends to be atrocious - when I get home, I drive the last few hundred meters in 1st with my foot off the pedal, trying to save the suspension/alloys...and I see most other drivers doing the same.

I don't think, however, that the speed limit would do anything - what about vehicles parked in ways that obstruct visibility or force other drivers to do odd maneuvers?

Also, I would expect the most dangerous phase of driving in a residential area to be reversing out of a spot/driveway/garage. A lot of cars have poor visibility and most people don't pay enough attention. Also, most drivers reverse by turning around to look behind - which negates them view to the right side of the car, completely. If a child/animal/whatever is behind the car there, they're toast.

Spook_ie

whatawaster wrote: »

I was taught that 50 was the default in housing estates and that it was important not to drive too slowly as "progress" seems to be the most important aspect of our ridiculous testing system rather than "safety"

You are so wrong, the driving test is make safe progress, if you are driving too fast in a hazardous enviroment you'll ( or at least you should ) fail for not slowing up and observing hazards

CramCycle

H3llR4iser wrote: »

I don't think, however, that the speed limit would do anything - what about vehicles parked in ways that obstruct visibility or force other drivers to do odd maneuvers?

It won't and can't be enforced in any reasonable fashion, I think the only thing that it achieves is shifting the liability more onto the motorist if it can be shown (due to nature of damage, skid marks, other factors,etc.) that they were breaking the speed limit by quite a bit. Maybe that's easier to show at 20kmph than 30kmph as there would be a margin of error from any expert in court.

This said, in most estates, hitting much over 20 or 30 is dangerous alot of the time and unlikely for most reasonable drivers.

Special Circumstances

CramCycle wrote: »

It won't and can't be enforced in any reasonable fashion, I think the only thing that it achieves is shifting the liability more onto the motorist if it can be shown (due to nature of damage, skid marks, other factors,etc.) that they were breaking the speed limit by quite a bit. Maybe that's easier to show at 20kmph than 30kmph as there would be a margin of error from any expert in court.

This said, in most estates, hitting much over 20 or 30 is dangerous alot of the time and unlikely for most reasonable drivers.

I'm cool with that. Wary of the opportunity to turn it into revenue though.

CramCycle

Special Circumstances wrote: »

I'm cool with that. Wary of the opportunity to turn it into revenue though.

Same here, it only then becomes an issue if you are driving so stupidly that local residents report you en masse or if you are in an accident where your speed was a factor.

ianobrien

They have official speed limits of 30kph where my house is. They were lowered due to the amount of children and possibly due to lobbying. The new lower speed limits are meaningless as they are not enforced. I've never seen or heard of a speed check or heard of somebody getting caught. In my (inexpert) eye, the newer speed limits haven't slown down the traffic. Thus they are meaningless.

However, if they are brought in across the board, I'm very wary of the feeder roads into estates being designated residential. If this happens, people will ignore and/or get cheesed off with the shooting fish in the barrel. For example, I'd be afraid of everything inside the M50 being designated residential. If that happens it will be ignored as unworkable.

If the limit is set to 20, it will be ignored by the majority and potential road rage and will result in silly overtaking when people who are ignoring the 20kph complete some silly overtaking on a person obeying the 20kph. Also, it seems that some people can't or don't explain to their kids about the dangers of traffic and want to blame others for their kids having no discipline.

Now, as for the proposed 20kph, that's plain daft. My car does 15kph in first at high idle and about 20kph in second at low idle. The 30kph is much more managable as my car can manage 30kph at a reasonable rpm without rodgering my DMF

Victor

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Also, I would expect the most dangerous phase of driving in a residential area to be reversing out of a spot/driveway/garage. A lot of cars have poor visibility and most people don't pay enough attention. Also, most drivers reverse by turning around to look behind - which negates them view to the right side of the car, completely. If a child/animal/whatever is behind the car there, they're toast.

It is an offence to reverse into a road unless you know it to be clear. In most case, this will mean having someone help you reverse out.

ianobrien wrote: »

Also, it seems that some people can't or don't explain to their kids about the dangers of traffic and want to blame others for their kids having no discipline.

So, children are expected to show discipline, but motorists aren't?

ianobrien

Victor wrote: »

So, children are expected to show discipline, but motorists aren't?

I didn't say that. Read what you quoted again.

carzony

The Guards won't have the resources to enforce this and most traffic violations are ignored as it is. I don't think bringing this in will make a difference to anyone unless enforced properly.

Sure as it is thousands (can't remember the exact figure) of cars have no nct.

Jesus.

Bigcheeze wrote: »

I'm in favour of 30 km limits inside housing estates. With cars parked on the streets I don't feel it's safe to drive any faster. But please let's not cover the roads in speed bumps.

Too late. They're covered already