Man chooses Down's Syndrome son over wife following divorce ultimatum

Zippie84

http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/trending/im-keeping-him-man-chooses-downs-syndrome-son-over-wife-following-divorce-ultimatum-30969630.html

Heartwarming story. Based in Armenia.

Apparently the wife requested that the child be given up for adoption after he was born on discovering his Down's syndrome.

Told her hubbie that if he kept the baby she'd divorce him.

"Despite a "few moments of shock" upon hearing the news, Forrest reportedly fell in love with the child after he held him.

"I looked at this guy and I said, he's beautiful".

"Forrest's wife filed for divorce one week after Leo was born and he reports and that he is "no longer welcome" in her family home."


Possibly not the full story, as we can rarely know for sure with stories, but fair play to him!

Surely any parent would choose their child in these circumstances?

I can't imagine anyone saying' yea love, feck the baby, I choose you!'

_Brian

Well done that man !!
Yet another demonstration on the absolute shallowness and selfishness of some people..

Jesus I hope that the abysmal fathers' rights that "some" countries have don't fcuk this man over.

fedor.2.

what a cold b1tch, if true.

Zippie84

bubblypop wrote: »

Surely any parent would choose their child in these circumstances?

'

I would definitely like to think so. Probably a very different culture and attitude towards disability there. But couldn't imagine choosing anyone but the child myself in those circumstances.

kfallon

What a cúnt of a wife! Geebag!

AlteredStates

He was right to choose the baby.. as his wife has no compassion, understanding, unconditional love etc. Down Syndrome children have great affection, love etc.. She was blessed with this child but unfortunately thought it better to hand over any obligation (presumably due to her own defects and not the babies!).

If I was in that situation, I would divorce her too.

Baby is not the issue.. his wife seemingly is.

Well done to him ---- lovely Man

Zippie84

I know I'm a very broody woman - but even still, just look at the baby's beautiful wee face

People put children up for adoption for all sorts of reasons, they're not all cold hearted gee bags. She may not have thought she'd be able to care for a child with a disability, particularly if there is no support in her country. We just don't know the circumstances so I wouldn't be overly quick to judge.

Me personally, I couldn't give any child of mine up for adoption, and I wouldn't terminate a pregnancy if I found out that my baby had downs', in fact, I don't think I'd be remotely phased by it at all. But that's me, I'm strong, I live in a country where it's not shameful to have a disability, and I have a lot of family support around me. We're not all in the same boat though.

Zippie84

According to the Daily Mail "She refused to look at or even touch her son because Armenian culture believes a child with a condition like Leo's brings shame on the entire family, according to Samuel."

This is lovely:

'They took me in to see him and I looked at this guy and I said, he's beautiful, he's perfect and I'm absolutely keeping him,' he said."

He's also trying to raise money to now bring his baby home with him to New Zealand and it's raised almost $190k already: http://www.gofundme.com/bringleohome

"Samuel also plans to use some of the funds to support parents in Armenia who are raising children with disabilities."

DoYouEvenLift

Well, since right then and there she would have revealed her true colours of how much of an absolute vile kunt she is it's really not a difficult choice to make. It's a pity he didn't see that side of her before they got married though. I'm sure he'll be a great, loving parent and I also hope he finds another woman that makes up for his ex wives many shortcomings and kuntiness.

Zippie84 wrote: »

According to the Daily Mail "She refused to look at or even touch her son because Armenian culture believes a child with a condition like Leo's brings shame on the entire family, according to Samuel."

This is lovely:

'They took me in to see him and I looked at this guy and I said, he's beautiful, he's perfect and I'm absolutely keeping him,' he said."

He's also trying to raise money to now bring his baby home with him to New Zealand and it's raised almost $190k already: http://www.gofundme.com/bringleohome

"Samuel also plans to use some of the funds to support parents in Armenia who are raising children with disabilities."

Man, I fuking love the internet sometimes. $15 NZD is less than €10 for anyone else donating.

SeantheMan

Where is the donation page ? anyone.
How much did he raise in total ?

Found it, near the 200k mark

http://www.gofundme.com/bringleohome


Some more interesting details.....seems its Armenian society.....they are all raised with this view...

Health professionals estimate that 98% of all Down Syndrome babies born in Armenia are abandoned, every year. These abandoned babies are often placed in squalid orphanages, where they live and die, rejected and forgotten by society.

The mother refused to even look at or touch the newborn for fear of getting attached in a society where defects are not accepted, often bringing shame on the family involved

Zippie84

Deleted User wrote: »

People put children up for adoption for all sorts of reasons, they're not all cold hearted gee bags. She may not have thought she'd be able to care for a child with a disability, particularly if there is no support in her country. We just don't know the circumstances so I wouldn't be overly quick to judge.

Me personally, I couldn't give any child of mine up for adoption, and I wouldn't terminate a pregnancy if I found out that my baby had downs', in fact, I don't think I'd be remotely phased by it at all. But that's me, I'm strong, I live in a country where it's not shameful to have a disability, and I have a lot of family support around me. We're not all in the same boat though.

Yep. I think the key fact is that it seems to be a completely different attitude towards disabilities in their country (Aremina).

And as much as you'd like to think that maternal love would win over, it's obviously far from that simple, and we can't really judge as we've not been in her shoes.

kfallon

Deleted User wrote: »

People put children up for adoption for all sorts of reasons, they're not all cold hearted gee bags.

Who said otherwise?

She asked a husband/father to choose between his wife or his Down Syndrome child. That is disgusting imo!

Zippie84

This is interesting.

From the donation page:

Note about Armenia:

In this tiny, landlocked country renowned for its' hospitality, scores of babies are abandoned each year, for reasons ranging from physical or intellectual disabilities and minor 'imperfections'. This practice of abandoning children due to disabilities is unfortunately widespread throughout Eastern Europe and the Former Soviet Union, resulting from a culture which refused to accept human defects. Health professionals estimate that 98% of all Down Syndrome babies born in Armenia are abandoned, every year. These abandoned babies are often placed in squalid orphanages, where they live and die, rejected and forgotten by society.

Your support of Leo will also help draw healthy attention to this enormous problem - Armenia's hidden shame - and help the push for change, education and acceptance - for Armenia's forgotten babies.

kfallon

kfallon wrote: »

Who said otherwise?

She asked a husband/father to choose between his wife or his Down Syndrome child. That is disgusting imo!

The woman wanted to give her child up for adoption. Her husband did not. Anyone who is calling the woman names is calling her those names because she wanted to give her child up for adoption.

She did not think she could handle looking after a child with downs' syndrome so she left her husband who wanted to keep the child.

To me, that's heartbreaking, it's so sad that someone can't see past a disability to see their beautiful little baby as special but she obviously couldn't and felt she needed to leave.

It happens, it happens all the time, it's just that in this case the father chose to let her leave and not have the child adopted. That's not always the way it happens though.

Edit: And looking at Zippie's post above it's pretty horrible that this woman's feelings are a product of her culture and society

fedor.2.

Zippie84 wrote: »

This is interesting.

From the donation page:

Note about Armenia:

In this tiny, landlocked country renowned for its' hospitality, scores of babies are abandoned each year, for reasons ranging from physical or intellectual disabilities and minor 'imperfections'. This practice of abandoning children due to disabilities is unfortunately widespread throughout Eastern Europe and the Former Soviet Union, resulting from a culture which refused to accept human defects. Health professionals estimate that 98% of all Down Syndrome babies born in Armenia are abandoned, every year. These abandoned babies are often placed in squalid orphanages, where they live and die, rejected and forgotten by society.

Your support of Leo will also help draw healthy attention to this enormous problem - Armenia's hidden shame - and help the push for change, education and acceptance - for Armenia's forgotten babies.

jesus

kfallon

Deleted User wrote: »

The woman wanted to give her child up for adoption. Her husband did not. Anyone who is calling the woman names is calling her those names because she wanted to give her child up for adoption.

She did not think she could handle looking after a child with downs' syndrome so she left her husband who wanted to keep the child.

To me, that's heartbreaking, it's so sad that someone can't see past a disability to see their beautiful little baby as special but she obviously couldn't and felt she needed to leave.

It happens, it happens all the time, it's just that in this case the father chose to let her leave and not have the child adopted. That's not always the way it happens though.

Edit: And looking at Zippie's post above it's pretty horrible that this woman's feelings are a product of her culture and society

Not sure where you are picking up the bit in bold tbh, seems she dismissed the child from the moment she set eyes upon him. It sounds more like she didn't want the shame of raising a Down Syndrome child just because it was culturally frowned upon.

Unless you meant she could not handle the shame of raising the child, then that's fair enough.

'Culture' has a lot to answer for at times!

The Backwards Man

It's not that long ago that people with Down's Syndrome were locked away, shunned, ridiculed and ostracised in western countries too, so I wouldn't be too quick to jump on the lynching bandwagon. I'm not that old and I remember a house or two around here that had an 'imbecile' in a loft or a boxroom, who never saw the light of day, and were never spoken about unless in hushed tones.

We've come a long way in a few years.

Zippie84

Deleted User wrote: »

Edit: And looking at Zippie's post above it's pretty horrible that this woman's feelings are a product of her culture and society

I agree. I find it very unlikely that the mother was cold-hearted and uncaring.

From what was said on the gofundme page 'The mother refused to even look at or touch the newborn for fear of getting attached in a society where defects are not accepted, often bringing shame on the family involved. ' and I can only begin to imagine how I would feel if that was me, and would imagine that she's in bits emotionally herself over it.

kfallon

kfallon wrote: »

Not sure where you are picking up the bit in bold tbh, seems she dismissed the child from the moment she set eyes upon him. It sounds more like she didn't want the shame of raising a Down Syndrome child just because it was culturally frowned upon.

Unless you meant she could not handle the shame of raising the child, then that's fair enough.

'Culture' has a lot to answer for at times!

Yup, that's what I meant. It's hard for us to imagine I suppose, in a country that treats babies with downs' syndrome as special little children who need more love than others, compared to a country like Armenia the child is thought of as a curse that should be hidden away and who brings shame to a family. It's just awful

conorhal

Deleted User wrote: »

People put children up for adoption for all sorts of reasons, they're not all cold hearted gee bags. She may not have thought she'd be able to care for a child with a disability, particularly if there is no support in her country. We just don't know the circumstances so I wouldn't be overly quick to judge.

Me personally, I couldn't give any child of mine up for adoption, and I wouldn't terminate a pregnancy if I found out that my baby had downs', in fact, I don't think I'd be remotely phased by it at all. But that's me, I'm strong, I live in a country where it's not shameful to have a disability, and I have a lot of family support around me. We're not all in the same boat though.

She I presume is Armenian, her husband is I imagine from New Zeland (where he has returned) so there may be a cultural component to it.
A friend of mine has an autistic daughter and I can't imagine how tough that is but his wife who's from a similar kneck of the woods as the woman in the story seems utterly unable to accept the reality of having a disabled child or come to terms with it. Her reaction to the kid veer from 'remote' to almost antagonistic. She comes from a culture where having a disabled child is 'shameful', a country that's pretty poor and thus caring for a disabled child is a burden that's far higher then even our crappy health service can illeviate and then of course there's the fact that the done thing with disabled children, even for those that could afford to look after one, is to dump them in the nearest orphange.
It's sad but it also angers me because the burden of care for the child falls (as in the case reported) largely on my mate who bears it with such grace.

Zippie84

kfallon wrote: »

Not sure where you are picking up the bit in bold tbh, seems she dismissed the child from the moment she set eyes upon him. It sounds more like she didn't want the shame of raising a Down Syndrome child just because it was culturally frowned upon.

Unless you meant she could not handle the shame of raising the child, then that's fair enough.

'Culture' has a lot to answer for at times!

Obviously up to whoopsadaisydoodles themselves to say what they mean, but in terms of how I interpreted it. I presumed they meant that she couldn't handle it - because of the shame. May be wrong, but when I read it, I presumed that's what they meant...

anncoates

To be fair, you'd want your head examined to choose her over your child.

kfallon

The Backwards Man wrote: »

It's not that long ago that people with Down's Syndrome were locked away, shunned, ridiculed and ostracised in western countries too, so I wouldn't be too quick to jump on the lynching bandwagon. I'm not that old and I remember a house or two around here that had an 'imbecile' in a loft or a boxroom, who never saw the light of day, and were never spoken about unless in hushed tones.

We've come a long way in a few years.

That's heartbreaking stuff

handlemaster

Zippie84 wrote: »

According to the Daily Mail "She refused to look at or even touch her son because Armenian culture believes a child with a condition like Leo's brings shame on the entire family, according to Samuel."

This is lovely:

'They took me in to see him and I looked at this guy and I said, he's beautiful, he's perfect and I'm absolutely keeping him,' he said."

He's also trying to raise money to now bring his baby home with him to New Zealand and it's raised almost $190k already: http://www.gofundme.com/bringleohome

"Samuel also plans to use some of the funds to support parents in Armenia who are raising children with disabilities."

always a money begging scheme behind these stories.

Zippie84

handlemaster wrote: »

always a money begging scheme behind these stories.

and always one that has to come on and lower it.

It will cost a lot of money to bring Leo back to NZ, house them, raise him etc, especially as a single parent.

If you'd rather he didn't ask for support, and struggled by impossibly and unnecessarily, and gave Leo a much lesser quality of life than is needed, when you have so many people willing and wanting to provide their support, it says more about you to be honest imho.

Shiraz 4.99

If she'd had her 12 week scan she could've had an abortion then everyone would have been happy.

Zippie84

Shiraz 4.99 wrote: »

If she'd had her 12 week scan she could've had an abortion then everyone would have been happy.

Everybody would've been happy if she'd had an abortion?

Well, to begin with, I'd say this man sounds pretty happy with his beautiful, precious little boy.

Also, you may be looking for http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057374553

On a "sort of" more positive note, both father and baby are probably better off with that heartless Ice Maiden in their lives. At least now the boy has a shot at growing up with love instead of resentment.

jimgoose

Proper order. Only problem is the wagon should be booted out of the family home - it's her that's no longer involved in that family, not him.

ScumLord

AlteredStates wrote: »

He was right to choose the baby..

Indeed, babies are chick magnets, he'll be able to find a much nicer woman now.

crockholm

Explains why the Kardashian family emigrated from Armenia to L.A.

Facetiousness aside,I am very glad that the tots pappa will not abandon him to a cruel fate in Armenia, the video footage from orphanages in the former Soviet countries could bring a tear to a glass Eye,so much sufferring.

Oyva bigwan

What a Geebag

Zippie84

Oyva bigwan wrote: »

What a Geebag

seriously....?

Zippie84

I started this thread, as I thought it was a heartwarming story to share, and wanted to say how much I admire the father.

But while I have a lot of admiration for Samuel, (the baby's father) and think he is a good man, this doesn't mean I hold any disgust towards the baby's mother, or think she is a bad person. I just don't think it is that black and white, or even our place to say. And I'm glad that the baby's father doesn't seem to be portraying her as such either.

crockholm

Zippie84 wrote: »

I started this thread, as I thought it was a heartwarming story to share, and wanted to say how much I admire the father.

But while I have a lot of admiration for Samuel, (the baby's father) and think he is a good man, this doesn't mean I hold any disgust towards the baby's mother, or think she is a bad person. I just don't think it is that black and white, or even our place to say. And I'm glad that the baby's father doesn't seem to be portraying her as such either.

I get what you are saying,but it just sounds like cultural relativism,this veil we don to appear more open minded and tolerant.I Believe many traditions and practices are abhorrent,while I Believe it is good to investigate more as to why the traditions still exist,it should not stop people from denouncing the act and having a negative opinion of those who keep alive the harmful traditions.......so yeah,I do certainly Think she is a horrible person.

Adamantium

fedor.2. wrote: »

what a cold b1tch, if true.

Ah now, that's too much. C'mon.

kfallon wrote: »

What a cúnt of a wife! Geebag!

There, much better.

Zippie84

crockholm wrote: »

I get what you are saying,but it just sounds like cultural relativism,this veil we don to appear more open minded and tolerant.

I get what you're saying, but I'm not donning a veil to appear more open minded and tolerant. I genuinely 100% believe that unless I have lived her life, existed in her mind, lived with her family, within her culture... unless I actually am her... I am not in a position to judge her, and can't even begin to understand it.

By judging her as a horrible person I would be doing so based on my own experiences, my own culture, my own situation, etc, but our situations are worlds apart, so they're somewhat irrelevant to the situation

I similarly believe that it's not my place to say that others shouldn't judge her as horrible etc, as they're just being human in doing so.

The bigger problem clearly, in my mind, (based on what I've read, without having been there, and seen anything first hand) is the country and their culture, their practices, their beliefs, their shame... and I hope desperately that something changes for them.

From reading up on it, things do seem to have improved somewhat in the last 20 years in particular, and here's hoping that continues.

crockholm

Zippie84 wrote: »

I get what you're saying, but I'm not donning a veil to appear more open minded and tolerant. I genuinely 100% believe that unless I have lived her life, existed in her mind, lived with her family, within her culture... unless I actually am her... I am not in a position to judge her, and can't even begin to understand it.

By judging her as a horrible person I would be doing so based on my own experiences, my own culture, my own situation, etc, but our situations are worlds apart, so they're somewhat irrelevant to the situation

I similarly believe that it's not my place to say that others shouldn't judge her as horrible etc, as they're just being human in doing so.

The bigger problem clearly, in my mind, (based on what I've read, without having been there, and seen anything first hand) is the country and their culture, their practices, their beliefs, their shame... and I hope desperately that something changes for them.

From reading up on it, things do seem to have improved somewhat in the last 20 years in particular, and here's hoping that continues.

I see your Point,but I don't agree with it because it leads to the continuation of an "ability apartheid" in those countries,FGM in other socities and Child marraiges in yet others.
There is something atavistic about caring for those who can't look after themselves,it is a long anthropological trait that we have had for thousands of years- much longer than any "Culture" in existance today.

An unwillingness to denounce such barbarity will only lead to the survival of such antiquated practices.We don't Always have to see things in forty shades of grey,this issue is black and White,thankfully one parent had a healthy functioning moral compass

Zippie84

crockholm wrote: »

An unwillingness to denounce such barbarity

Who is showing an unwillingness to denounce such barbarity?

As for not agreeing with my point, the good thing is that that is fine. The nature of us both being human beings is that humans look at things from different perspectives, and it's normal and good for people to disagree.

Timmyctc

Zippie84 wrote: »

Everybody would've been happy if she'd had an abortion?

Well, to begin with, I'd say this man sounds pretty happy with his beautiful, precious little boy.

Also, you may be looking for http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057374553

I never understand why people go out of their way to say kids with downs or any condition that causes physical abnormalities, are inherently beautiful when its almost the opposite. Not thay its a sleight against the person. Its just outright a non truth.

Used to happen flat out with that adilia rose girl too.

The man is happy now but if you told someone that the foetus that they had created was going to have downs a lot more people would be a lot more apprehensive I can guarantee you that. Of course most people will fall in love with heir child after the fact.

Zippie84

Timmyctc wrote: »

I never understand why people go out of their way to say kids with downs or any condition that causes physical abnormalities, are inherently beautiful when its almost the opposite. Not thay its a sleight against the person. Its just outright a non truth.

Used to happen flat out with that adilia rose girl too.

The man is happy now but if you told someone that the foetus that they had created was going to have downs a lot more people would be a lot more apprehensive I can guarantee you that. Of course most people will fall in love with heir child after the fact.

I personally haven't gone out of their way to say kids with downs or any condition that causes physical abnormalities, are inherently beautiful, and don't see any need to say so.

I see every child as beautiful.

My comment stated that the man seems happy with his little boy (because he does), and described his little boy as a beautiful, precious little boy, as that's how I see all babies - not because he has down's syndrome.

I'm pretty sure that 'a lot more apprehensive' is something that the day likely would have been if he'd found out before the baby was born, yes, but nobody knows for sure how he truly would have acted or felt, not even him, as it didn't happen, and only way he himself could know for sure how he would have acted is for it to actually have happened.

Macavity.

I don't see her as vile at all.

Macavity.

anncoates wrote: »

To be fair, you'd want your head examined to choose her over your child.

Impossible to say without knowing the woman or the full story.

Juran

It’s all veryeasy for people on the outside to judge both her and him, people that may notever understand their situation. I know someone very well who has a DS childand I see first -hand the affect it has on her and her family’s life … she hadto give up work to mind him which means they struggle financially with only oneincome, she’s at the doctor every week & hospital every month withillnesses, her husband was offered a job abroad but they can’t leave cause ofthe child’s needs and his medical team being in Ireland, they find it hard toget a baby-sitter for the child, their holidays are limited to where they canbring him and travel to, and there is so much more that I can’t even begin to comprehendhow it has changed them as a family unit and perhaps limited their quality of life -- and they will continue to care for thatchild until the day they die. There is no doubt they love that child to bits.

That women whocouldn’t look at the baby – it might be that if she did look at him, or hold, she mightfall in love with him and maybe that’s what she didn’t want to happen. Perhapsshe knows if she was to bond with him she would never be able to let him go,and her life and her family’s life would change forever …. and I don’t know too much about Armenia, but Idoubt it has the medical and education support for special needs children / adultsas Ireland, UK and western Europe has.

arayess

i don't get some people on this thread.

They spit bile and venom (in other threads) over our cultural treatment of women and babies at the hands of state and church in the past. and rightly so.

Yet somebody else's far away cultural is not judged as harshly.
It's terrible but that's their way. fu8k that.

I judge the woman. judge her in the harshest terms .
I make no excuses for this - she ditched her own flesh and blood for some "what will the neighbours say" bull****.

Fu*k that , it's wrong and scummy in any culture.

Frito

arayess wrote: »

i don't get some people on this thread.

They spit bile and venom (in other threads) over our cultural treatment of women and babies at the hands of state and church in the past. and rightly so.

Yet somebody else's far away cultural is not judged as harshly.
It's terrible but that's their way. fu8k that.

I judge the woman. judge her in the harshest terms .
I make no excuses for this - she ditched her own flesh and blood for some "what will the neighbours say" bull****.

Fu*k that , it's wrong and scummy in any culture.

Adoption is wrong?

IvySlayer

If the situation were reversed the man would be getting all sorts of abuse. No excuse for abandoning your baby.

Tasden

arayess wrote: »

i don't get some people on this thread.

They spit bile and venom (in other threads) over our cultural treatment of women and babies at the hands of state and church in the past. and rightly so.

Yet somebody else's far away cultural is not judged as harshly.
It's terrible but that's their way. fu8k that.

I judge the woman. judge her in the harshest terms .
I make no excuses for this - she ditched her own flesh and blood for some "what will the neighbours say" bull****.

Fu*k that , it's wrong and scummy in any culture.

Part of it may be down to the culture but I'm sure there are plenty of people all over the world who would have doubts about their ability to raise a child with any kind of disability or medical condition. It would be naive of parents not to be questioning their future upon finding out their child had down's syndrome- usually its mainly concern for the child, but also about how the parents can cope.

She may have made her decision based on how she saw her future, not how people may judge her. None of us have any idea what's going on in her head.