Anton Savage Show: Girlfriend Pregnant, Boyfriend wants Abortion

bcklschaps

Was listening this morning to the Anton Savage show on Today FM.

Anton and his research team produced a letter from some un-named man who was living abroad with his Girfriend. He was 32 she was 27, neither has children. But she previously had an abortion and it was tough on her. It didn't say how long they were going out for.

The Scenario was as follows.

She was 6 weeks pregnant and wanted to go ahead and have the baby. It wasn't mentioned if that would entail coming back to Ireland or not or having the baby abroad. For various reasons, (They are abroad, she is out of work, they live in rented accommodation) He didn't want to go ahead with having the baby and was about to ask her to have an abortion again. He wanted the opinion of the great un-washed who listen to the radio at 9am in the morning .... :-/


As you can imagine the responses to the article were pretty emotive. Mostly along the lines of : you heartless b****** how could you not be fully supportive of your GF regardless of her decision, its a woman right to choose etc..... to the occasional response of : well actually you will be paying the bills, so you should certainly have some say in this decision.



I think a lot more men get into this situation than they will ever admit to.

Anybody listening to this show this morning or have an opinon in general ?


I have my own opinion which I will post shortly.

Mokuba

It's a very delicate subject.

Firstly, obviously they should have been more careful.

Secondly, it's a hard situation on both parties, especially considering she had an abortion before. I can only imagine what it would put me through were I in her shoes potentially facing a 2nd abortion.

Well the baby grows in her and ultimately you can't tell someone what to do with their own body. It is a little unfair on the man, but you can't start taking away a persons rights over their body.

The compromise would be that the man would be able to surrender all parental obligations in the period where the woman is still able to get an abortion - if he makes it clear that he wants her to have an abortion. Probably a decent option, but even that drags you into very murky waters.

In terms of the comments on the show, I'd take no notice to be honest.

eviltwin

What can he do? Nothing. You can't force someone to have an abortion. Where would it end? Could I force my husband to have the snip, could I be forced to have to give a kidney to a sick relative? If she's been there before and its had a toll on her mental health having another one, especially when she is being coerced could have huge implications.

Of course he has a right to have his voice heard in this but its not his decision to make. I've had an abortion myself and did it knowing it was 100% the right thing for me to do, even with that it was the hardest and most distressing thing I have ever done and I would not be strong enough to have to do that a second time. I wouldn't wish it on anyone especially a woman who isn't sure its the right choice for her.

He can always choose to walk away if he wants, she can't force him to be involved anymore than he can force her not to have the child.

ancapailldorcha

Sucks for the guy but autonomy over one's own body is a basic human right. It's her choice whether or not she carries it to term.

strobe

He's perfectly entitled to tell her that's what he wants. Can't see what's heartless about it or why he would be expected to silently support a decision he disagrees with that effects both their lives massively. I'd certainly have no problem telling a girl I wanted her to have an abortion if that's how I felt. Obviously can't frog march her to a clinic, but I can't see anything wrong with telling her it's what you want.

bcklschaps

Well .. Firstly the guy has absolutely no legal recourse here... fathers are completely shut out of the re-production scenario legally speaking (only that they are financially liable...mmmmhh !!) even if it was some kind of forced semen harvesting scenario... you would have a hard time proving it.

All he has here is a massive breach of trust. Also any legal move .. would be the end of the relationship.

As I see it he's got 3 options.

1). Stay Schtum, and play along with the charade, who knows it might be the best thing that ever happened and they will laugh about it in the future. On the flip side it could eat away at him for years .. and eventually cause the end of the relationship.

2). Tell the GF how he feels and be done with it. Its going to be super emotional for both so he needs to very very careful with the language he uses. Try to weigh up everything and the two of them might come to a decision that suits both best.

3). Its over, tell her he respects her decision what ever it is and if she decides to go ahead with having the baby, he will fulfill legal obligations of maintenance, visitation etc. .. but this represents a deal breaker for him and he cannot be in a relationship where his views are not valued.

Galwayguy35

If she wants to have the baby so be it, but he should not be forced to financially support a kid he never wanted in the first place.

Pawwed Rig

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Sucks for the guy but autonomy over one's own body is a basic human right. It's her choice whether or not she carries it to term.

Not in Ireland it isn't

ancapailldorcha

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Not in Ireland it isn't

I keep forgetting that. The media here, especially the Guardian had a field day with the Savita Halappanavar story.

Pawwed Rig

Rightfully so. It was a pretty scummy situation

ancapailldorcha

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Rightfully so. It was a pretty scummy situation

Wasn't there protests when they attempted to amend the law to account for women whose health was at risk?

womandriver

bcklschaps wrote: »

Well .. Firstly the guy has absolutely no legal recourse here... fathers are completely shut out of the re-production scenario legally speaking (only that they are financially liable...mmmmhh !!).

Eh it appears he was completely involved in the "reproduction scenario" unless he's suggesting it was the immaculate conception. There's no such thing as 100% safe sex, only safer sex. It's the risk he took and now he wants her to under go a traumatic (based on her previous experience) invasive procedure because they weren't careful enough. If he can't handle the consequences, he shouldn't be having sex.

PUnited

Mokuba wrote: »

IThe compromise would be that the man would be able to surrender all parental obligations in the period where the woman is still able to get an abortion - if he makes it clear that he wants her to have an abortion. Probably a decent option, but even that drags you into very murky waters.

this completely. While a woman should get sole choice over her own body a man also have the option of opting out of any responsibility if he wants her to have an abortion and she wants to keep it.

ancapailldorcha

womandriver wrote: »

Eh it appears he was completely involved in the "reproduction scenario" unless he's suggesting it was the immaculate conception. There's no such thing as 100% safe sex, only safer sex. It's the risk he took and now he wants her to under go a traumatic (based on her previous experience) invasive procedure because they weren't careful enough. If he can't handle the consequences, he shouldn't be having sex.

I think this is a ridiculous attitude. She's completely innocent? It takes two to make a baby so both parties are responsible. She took the risk as well. It's not unreasonable for him to suggest that she have an abortion as long as he accepts that it's ultimately her decision.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

It's her choice now, he has no business even suggesting she abort it. All he can do now is support her decision. Of course, he can choose whether or not he is willing to stick around and be a father but the right should be with the woman, what she wants to do with her own body.

eviltwin

PUnited wrote: »

this completely. While a woman should get sole choice over her own body a man also have the option of opting out of any responsibility if he wants her to have an abortion and she wants to keep it.

But then it falls on the taxpayer to support the child and I wouldn't be keen to support other people's kids when I can hardly afford my own. Its a pretty ****ty thing to do, imagine growing up knowing your dad actually went to the trouble of legally absolving himself of any connection to you. Years of therapy in waiting.

I feel sorry for him but having being there an unplanned pregnancy is not fun no matter what decision you make. Its a responsibility that she may not have wanted at this time either but feels keeping the baby is the lesser of two evils. She might not be exactly over the moon about it especially considering she will probably be going it alone. I think in these cases we can sometimes assume the woman is all excited and happy when often its not the case at all.

eviltwin

LexieOnRale wrote: »

It's her choice now, he has no business even suggesting she abort it. All he can do now is support her decision. Of course, he can choose whether or not he is willing to stick around and be a father but the right should be with the woman, what she wants to do with her own body.

Sorry I don't agree with this at all. He needs to speak his mind, his opinion is as valid as hers. He doesn't have to support her either, he should and I hope he would but imagine it was the other way around - she wanted the abortion and he didn't, should he just park his feelings there too to be supportive?

ancapailldorcha

eviltwin wrote: »

But then it falls on the taxpayer to support the child and I wouldn't be keen to support other people's kids when I can hardly afford my own. Its a pretty ****ty thing to do, imagine growing up knowing your dad actually went to the trouble of legally absolving himself of any connection to you. Years of therapy in waiting.

What about not getting to grow up because your Mum had you aborted? I'm pro-choice but I think men should have a choice as well.

PUnited

eviltwin wrote: »

But then it falls on the taxpayer to support the child and I wouldn't be keen to support other people's kids when I can hardly afford my own. Its a pretty ****ty thing to do, imagine growing up knowing your dad actually went to the trouble of legally absolving himself of any connection to you. Years of therapy in waiting.

I feel sorry for him but having being there an unplanned pregnancy is not fun no matter what decision you make. Its a responsibility that she may not have wanted at this time either but feels keeping the baby is the lesser of two evils. She might not be exactly over the moon about it especially considering she will probably be going it alone. I think in these cases we can sometimes assume the woman is all excited and happy when often its not the case at all.

and having a dad calling now and again making it obvious he never wanted you is lot worse than not knowing him at all i can tell you.

Thats the trouble if he makes it clear he is opting out, well then she will have to weigh up whether she can financially support her and the child without him. she might want to keep it but a father should also have an opt out option. this is getting very close to tit for tat thinking i know but if woman wanted to abort and a father doesnt he cant do anything but grieve. if she wnats it and he doesnt he forced to pay. the man should also have an option of absolving himself.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

eviltwin wrote: »

Sorry I don't agree with this at all. He needs to speak his mind, his opinion is as valid as hers. He doesn't have to support her either, he should and I hope he would but imagine it was the other way around - she wanted the abortion and he didn't, should he just park his feelings there too to be supportive?

I'm sorry but asking her to get rid of a child knowing the trauma she experienced in the past is downright nasty. Fair enough if he doesn't want to support her, that's his own business but this is not one of those unfair moments, everyone knows how babies are made, you dont want to have a child then use protection, and not just expect the woman to end a life growing inside her.

It's fine for the guy, what does he care? Situation averted, all is well, happy days. She's the one picking up the pieces afterwards, she'll be the one living with it.

PUnited

LexieOnRale wrote: »

She's the one picking up the pieces afterwards, she'll be the one living with it.

but sure you could say the same for the father if the mother aborted a child against his will too

RentDayBlues

LexieOnRale wrote: »

I'm sorry but asking her to get rid of a child knowing the trauma she experienced in the past is downright nasty. Fair enough if he doesn't want to support her, that's his own business but this is not one of those unfair moments, everyone knows how babies are made, you dont want to have a child then use protection, and not just expect the woman to end a life growing inside her.

It's fine for the guy, what does he care? Situation averted, all is well, happy days. She's the one picking up the pieces afterwards, she'll be the one living with it.

But she also had unprotected sex knowing that it could result in another pregnancy, where's the backlash for her?

Her previous abortion wasn't with him, so she's been in this position before where she decided the outcome. She didn't learn from it!

I heard the full letter, this guy hasn't asked her for an abortion, he wanted her to look at their situation and discuss it, she shot him down. He clearly suffers from some sort of anxiety disorder based on his description of a breakdown he suffered, it's a very difficult situation to bring a child into.

I believe it should be talked through, yes it's the woman's body and she ultimately has to carry or abort, but why should the fathers opinion be so disregarded?

ancapailldorcha

LexieOnRale wrote: »

I'm sorry but asking her to get rid of a child knowing the trauma she experienced in the past is downright nasty. Fair enough if he doesn't want to support her, that's his own business but this is not one of those unfair moments, everyone knows how babies are made, you dont want to have a child then use protection, and not just expect the woman to end a life growing inside her.

Protection isn't 100% effective. If her previous abortion was so traumatic, surely she would have insisted upon him or both of them using it. It's noone's fault but it's not unreasonable for him to suggest an abortion. If he attempts to coerce/intimidate/blackmail her then that's well out of line but there's nothing wrong with suggesting it in my opinion.

LexieOnRale wrote: »

It's fine for the guy, what does he care? Situation averted, all is well, happy days. She's the one picking up the pieces afterwards, she'll be the one living with it.

How do you know he doesn't care? That's a bit harsh.

challengemaster

eviltwin wrote: »

What can he do? Nothing. You can't force someone to have an abortion. Where would it end? Could I force my husband to have the snip, could I be forced to have to give a kidney to a sick relative? If she's been there before and its had a toll on her mental health having another one, especially when she is being coerced could have huge implications.


He can always choose to walk away if he wants, she can't force him to be involved anymore than he can force her not to have the child.

She can force him to pay maintenance for a child he never wanted though. That's the difference. Particularly in the aforementioned case where the father would be the sole financial source.

eviltwin wrote: »

But then it falls on the taxpayer to support the child and I wouldn't be keen to support other people's kids when I can hardly afford my own. Its a pretty ****ty thing to do, imagine growing up knowing your dad actually went to the trouble of legally absolving himself of any connection to you. Years of therapy in waiting.

Money aside, I don't see how that's any different from walking away as it stands now. Either way a single-parent child (by choice) will grow up knowing their father wanted nothing to do with them. I highly doubt any emotional issues they have would be the piece of paper that absolves them of paying for a child they never wanted.

You can't have it both ways.

efb

eviltwin wrote: »

Sorry I don't agree with this at all. He needs to speak his mind, his opinion is as valid as hers. He doesn't have to support her either, he should and I hope he would but imagine it was the other way around - she wanted the abortion and he didn't, should he just park his feelings there too to be supportive?

He should have determination over her body??? Is this the 19c???

Enough dead beat dads walk away from their pregnant partners and all they do is make life hard for men who want to be involved in their child's life

womandriver

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think this is a ridiculous attitude. She's completely innocent? It takes two to make a baby so both parties are responsible. She took the risk as well. It's not unreasonable for him to suggest that she have an abortion as long as he accepts that it's ultimately her decision.

I think you'll find I clearly said THEY both were not careful. If he absolutely didn't want a child he should have been making sure it didn't happen. It's too late now that she's pregnant. The time for him taking control of the situation has passed. If he had taken as much control of his own body he might not be in this situation.

FunLover18

Very diffiult scenario. Whether they mean to or not if the guy is in doubt but the girl isn't; whether she is doing so intentionally or not she is essentially emotianally blackmailing him to stick around by going ahead with the pregnancy. He either sticks around despite his doubts or he ditches her because he's not ready and is judged to be a heartless shít who ditched her when it got tough.

Personally it makes sense to me that if any party is in doubt then for the sake of the child the pregnancy should be terminated the woman's right to choose be damned. (unless of course she's extremely understanding and is willing to let the guy off and raise it on her own). I will add the caveat that I have (thankfully) never been in this situation and am completely childless.

ancapailldorcha

womandriver wrote: »

I think you'll find I clearly said THEY both were not careful. If he absolutely didn't want a child he should have been making sure it didn't happen. It's too late now that she's pregnant. The time for him taking control of the situation has passed. If he had taken as much control of his own body he might not be in this situation.

So she's blameless?

PUnited

FunLover18 wrote: »

Personally it makes sense to me that if any party is in doubt then for the sake of the child the pregnancy should be terminated the woman's right to choose be damned. (unless of course she's extremely understanding and is willing to let the guy off and raise it on her own). I will add the caveat that I have (thankfully) never been in this situation and am completely childless.

ah now. an opt out would be better at least the woman can still have the child she wants and the dad isnt locked into it, currently even if they have no dealings they can be followed for money so an opt out would facilitate both parties

eviltwin

efb wrote: »

He should have determination over her body??? Is this the 19c???

Enough dead beat dads walk away from their pregnant partners and all they do is make life hard for men who want to be involved in their child's life

I never said that. I don't believe he should have anything other than an opinion but he is entitled to his opinion.

womandriver

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

So she's blameless?

Christ! Where did I say she was blameless?!

ancapailldorcha

womandriver wrote: »

Christ! Where did I say she was blameless?!

You've only blamed him. "If he had only taken control of his own body"..

fits

FunLover18 wrote: »

then for the sake of the child the pregnancy should be terminated the woman's right to choose be damned. (.

Goodness. I can't think of anything much more awful than your own bodily autonomy being violated and a wanted child aborted against your will.

And the recent cases where women had no bodily autonomy are awful too. So many cases ��

FunLover18

PUnited wrote: »

ah now. an opt out would be better at least the woman can still have the child she wants and the dad isnt locked into it, currently even if they have no dealings they can be followed for money so an opt out would facilitate both parties

Agreed an opt out would definitely be better hence I added out the bit in brackets. Unfortunately I fear it's not that simple, I'm not sure how many women would be happy to offer their OH that option and secondly even if she did the guy is always going to feel guilty - I know I would, you don't want a child because you're not ready either emotionally or financially so you opt out leaving mother and child with even less emotional and financial support as I said, a very difficult situation. I think I'm already in too deep on the matter, hopefully I'll never have to go through the situation myself.

eviltwin

fits wrote: »

Goodness. I can't think of anything much more awful than your own bodily autonomy being violated and a wanted child aborted against your will.

And the recent cases where women had no bodily autonomy are awful too. So many cases ��

Totally agree....Forced abortions, wtf are we that anyone would contemplate that.

womandriver

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You've only blamed him. "If he had only taken control of his own body"..

Because he's the one on national radio looking for advice. She's not asking for advice. If somebody doesn't want a baby (man or woman) then don't have unprotected sex. Especially in a man's case, the only real control he has is to not get someone pregnant in the first place.

FunLover18

fits wrote: »

Goodness. I can't think of anything much more awful than your own bodily autonomy being violated and a wanted child aborted against your will.

Yeh as I said already the allowing the guy to opt out would be preferable. I definitely got myself into this hole though with the strong language I used, so sorry about that

ancapailldorcha

womandriver wrote: »

Because he's the one on national radio looking for advice. She's not asking for advice. If somebody doesn't want a baby (man or woman) then don't have unprotected sex. Especially in a man's case, the only real control he has is to not get someone pregnant in the first place.

Why the specific emphasis on it being the man's responsibility? It takes two. Asking for advice is hardly a crime, especially in a situation like this.

efb

eviltwin wrote: »

I never said that. I don't believe he should have anything other than an opinion but he is entitled to his opinion.

No one is taking his opinion away. He's given it, but you can't force a person to do something to their body against their will.

challengemaster

fits wrote: »

Goodness. I can't think of anything much more awful than your own bodily autonomy being violated and a wanted child aborted against your will.

Depends on whose perspective you're looking at it from.

eviltwin

efb wrote: »

No one is taking his option away. He's given it, but you can't force a person to do something to their body against their will.

I agree!

PUnited

efb wrote: »

No one is taking his option away. He's given it, but you can't force a person to do something to their body against their will.

but to be fair his option isnt really an option as he can be chased and ordered to pay maintenance though.

womandriver

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Why the specific emphasis on it being the man's responsibility? It takes two. Asking for advice is hardly a crime, especially in a situation like this.

Because he is the party here that doesn't want to continue the pregnancy. It appear she is willing to. The fact of the matter is he can't control the situation now, he could have prevented it in the first place. She's the one carrying the baby. His place to exert control was to make sure he wrapped it up!

PUnited

womandriver wrote: »

Because he is the party here that doesn't want to continue the pregnancy. It appear she is willing to. The fact of the matter is he can't control the situation now, he could have prevented it in the first place. She's the one carrying the baby. His place to exert control was to make sure he wrapped it up!

As was it hers to make sure he wore condom and also used her own form of contraception.

seamus

FunLover18 wrote: »

secondly even if she did the guy is always going to feel guilty - I know I would, you don't want a child because you're not ready either emotionally or financially so you opt out leaving mother and child with even less emotional and financial support

I should hope it would be a difficult choice to make, and not an easy one. If it was easy to "opt-out", then it's been implemented wrong.

womandriver wrote: »

Because he is the party here that doesn't want to continue the pregnancy. It appear she is willing to. The fact of the matter is he can't control the situation now, he could have prevented it in the first place. She's the one carrying the baby. His place to exert control was to make sure he wrapped it up!

Except she has two chances to control the situation - before and after conception. One chance to prevent the mistake and the second chance to correct it.

He doesn't. If he makes the mistake, he's not given to chance to rectify it, he's forced to live with it.

It's an unnecessarily unequal scenario.

womandriver

PUnited wrote: »

As was it hers to make sure he wore condom and also used her own form of contraception.

Of course it is and now she's pregnant but that doesn't relieve him if his own responsibility! If I definately didn't want a baby I'd be making sure I was taking every precaution I could. It's no good blaming each other when it's done. Protect your own interests and make sure it doesn't happen.

PUnited

womandriver wrote: »

Of course it is and now she's pregnant but that doesn't relieve him if his own responsibility! If I definately didn't want a baby I'd be making sure I was taking every precaution I could. It's no good blaming each other when it's done. Protect your own interests and make sure it doesn't happen.

Oh I agree as things stand these days legally and that they will have to work out something.

challengemaster

seamus wrote: »

Except she has two chances to control the situation - before and after conception. One chance to prevent the mistake and the second chance to correct it.

.

Three, actually. Before copulation. Before conception (Morning after pill) and after.

womandriver

seamus wrote: »

I should hope it would be a difficult choice to make, and not an easy one. If it was easy to "opt-out", then it's been implemented wrong.

Except she has two chances to control the situation - before and after conception. One chance to prevent the mistake and the second chance to correct it.

He doesn't. If he makes the mistake, he's not given to chance to rectify it, he's forced to live with it.

It's an unnecessarily unequal scenario.

That's how babies are made, that wouldn't have been news to most people.

efb

PUnited wrote: »

but to be fair his option isnt really an option as he can be chased and ordered to pay maintenance though.

I meant opinion, he can't abdicate responsiblity. You can't bring a shirt back if you change your mind unless the retailer agrees- and this is a lot more serious

ancapailldorcha

womandriver wrote: »

Of course it is and now she's pregnant but that doesn't relieve him if his own responsibility! If I definately didn't want a baby I'd be making sure I was taking every precaution I could. It's no good blaming each other when it's done. Protect your own interests and make sure it doesn't happen.

Noone here's said that he's right to absolve himself of responsibility. The fact is that they're both in this mess and they're both to blame.

efb wrote: »

I meant opinion, he can't abdicate responsiblity. You can't bring a shirt back if you change your mind unless the retailer agrees- and this is a lot more serious

He hasn't tried to absolve himself of responsibility.