Challenging preconceived ideas of atheists

katydid

It seems to me that some atheists are very afraid of anyone with a bit of intelligence challenging their preconceived ideas about people who believe in a religion or a deity, and are, in their own way, as narrow minded and bigoted as the fundamentalist "religous" they go on about so much.

I am under no illusion that this post or my ability to post on this thread will last any more than five minutes, but even if, in those five minutes, I give someone food for thought as to the supposedly liberal ethos of this forum, it will have been worth it. I came on the thread to propose according those who subscribe to a religious belief some respect, and while I have encountered politeness from most people, I have also encountered downright hostility, when I have been nothing but polite, and patient in trying to explain my point of view repeatedly.

I had this funny idea coming on this particular forum that I would encounter open minded people, and I have encountered a few. But I've also been astonished how close minded some people have been, totally unwilling to consider other angles from which to view things than their own fixed one.

It's a pity that it's not the open place I would expect it to be. [...] It certainly has been educational - I know many atheists with whom I have had healthy and mutually respectful discussions. This forum is the first place I've encountered "fundamental atheists" who are just as close minded as their counterparts in the religious world.

challengemaster

katydid wrote: »

I had this funny idea coming on this particular forum that I would encounter open minded people, and I have encountered a few. But I've also been astonished how close minded some people have been, totally unwilling to consider other angles from which to view things than their own fixed one.

Shocking. It's almost as if Atheists on the internet are actually real people, with their own opinions and capability to think for themselves. Truly amazing finding that not all Atheists are the same.

Similarly if you attempted to have this discussion in person, not everyone will be open minded and willing to hear about what they perceive as pure nonsense.

You're entitled to your opinion. Others are entitled to disagree. That's called life.

Insect Overlord

Masterfully challenged, sir.

wretcheddomain

Some people are rude in all walks of life. It proves absolutely nothing.

swampgas

katydid wrote: »

It seems to me that some atheists are very afraid of anyone with a bit of intelligence challenging their preconceived ideas about people who believe in a religion or a deity, and are, in their own way, as narrow minded and bigoted as the fundamentalist "religious" they go on about so much.

I didn't see anyone "afraid" of being challenged to be honest. What I saw was lots of posters engaging with you and challenging some of your assertions.

Clearly many posters here are coming at the argument from a rational/empirical/materialistic (whatever you want to call it) perspective, and will automatically question points of view which seem to be mystical or based on "woo". Is this not what you expected?

swampgas

katydid wrote: »

I know many atheists with whom I have had healthy and mutually respectful discussions. This forum is the first place I've encountered "fundamental atheists" who are just as close minded as their counterparts in the religious world.

Just to expand on this a little bit, because I think I know where you're coming from.

I think there is a real difference when having a real life discussion with people you know. For example, my mother is religious, and I occasionally discuss religious topics with her, but I'm not going to be truly honest either - that would be hard to do without being quite rude. So it's difficult to really discuss religion with friends and family if they have very opposing views to you. There is a serious risk of a major falling out happening.

It's a subject that has been discussed tangentially before in this forum: the problem is that it's almost impossible to "say the unsayable" without coming across as a bit of a dick. So in the real world, most people either avoid discussing religion completely, or else they pull their punches. For example, I work with, and am friendly with a Jehova's Witness. He's a nice guy, a clever guy. I think his religion is dangerous nonsense, but I respect him and his right to believe what he wants far too much to ever say so to his face.

This forum is different.

This forum is one of those rare places where people can be as direct as they like, and say what they really think about religions and religious belief, without having to walk on eggshells in case somebody gets their feelings hurt. There is a preference for exchanges that can be direct and robust, if not downright combative, but that's one of its strengths.

If my JW friend were to post on here under a pseudonym, and tried to defend his religion, I would have no problem being as honest as I liked. That's because this is a forum where we really do discuss the stuff, and where we don't have to beat about the bush when doing so.

I can't see that there's any other way to really discuss religion and atheism without being honest to the point of outright rudeness.

So, while I'm sorry you found the experience a bit bruising, I hope you don't think we're all monsters either.

.

Peregrinus

I don't see why you would expect your post or yourself to be banned, katydid. Your essential point is that atheists and agnostics, who ought to be open-minded, are sometimes not. But this isn't a terribly shocking or controversial claim. And the denizens of this board, who presumably hang out quite a bit with other atheists and agnostics, presumably know as well or better than you that atheists and agnostics have the same human weaknesses and failings as everyone else. So I can't see that your pointing out that they sometimes display the weakness of failing to live up to their own aspirations to open-mindedness or rationality or whatever as making them angry. It would be like going on to the Christianity forum and saying that the Christians in that forum are not always as loving as they should be; they are more likely to agree with on this than to ban you for saying it.

As for your experience of hostility, etc, yes. But I think this isn't because atheism; it's because internet. Internet conversations are fraught with difficulty because we don't see the non-visual signals, tone of voice, etc that we get in face-to-face conversation, so we sometimes misunderstand the sense, tone or emphasis of what is said to us, or we are ourselves misunderstood. Or we simply fail to register the effect our words are having on people, or vice versa. And sometimes things spiral downwards from there.

smacl

katydid wrote: »

It seems to me that some atheists are very afraid of anyone with a bit of intelligence challenging their preconceived ideas about people who believe in a religion or a deity, and are, in their own way, as narrow minded and bigoted as the fundamentalist "religous" they go on about so much.

Being atheist just means not believing in a god or gods. It doesn't confer broad mindedness, intelligence, or make you an all around better person than those around you.

I am under no illusion that this post or my ability to post on this thread will last any more than five minutes, but even if, in those five minutes, I give someone food for thought as to the supposedly liberal ethos of this forum, it will have been worth it.

Your expectation to be censored is already a side swipe at how this board is moderated, and off topic before you've even begun. There's an A+A feedback thread for that type of stuff. You might get a tiny bit more respect by making some effort to understand how this forum works. This forum is very liberal, but it also has some structure. Playing the victim card without being victimised is a pretty sad tactic.

I came on the thread to propose according those who subscribe to a religious belief some respect, and while I have encountered politeness from most people, I have also encountered downright hostility, when I have been nothing but polite, and patient in trying to explain my point of view repeatedly.

For my own part, I've also been polite in my responses to you, and already explained why to my mind being religious in and of itself does not merit my respect.

I had this funny idea coming on this particular forum that I would encounter open minded people, and I have encountered a few. But I've also been astonished how close minded some people have been, totally unwilling to consider other angles from which to view things than their own fixed one.

It's a pity that it's not the open place I would expect it to be. [...] It certainly has been educational - I know many atheists with whom I have had healthy and mutually respectful discussions. This forum is the first place I've encountered "fundamental atheists" who are just as close minded as their counterparts in the religious world.

This is a very open place. That includes being open to open minded people, closed minded people, religious people, bigots, cake fanciers, and even those who would put pineapple on a pizza. From another persons perspective, your own views come across as rather confusing. For example;

katydid wrote:

Myths are by their nature UNTRUE, but they are not useless; they allow human beings to think about and to explore their own nature and their society. They are starting points for discussion and thought.

Many people on here would consider stories relating to gods and unreasonable heroic or supernatural events from any tradition to be mythology. This includes extant religions and their beliefs. As such, the statement above is directly contradictory to your stated position of believing in a deity. You also come across as very dismissive of other peoples stances which attack your fundamental beliefs, confusing I think what people don't get with what people simply don't agree with.

stevejazzx

katydid wrote: »

It seems to me that some atheists are very afraid of anyone with a bit of intelligence challenging their preconceived ideas about people who believe in a religion or a deity, and are, in their own way, as narrow minded and bigoted as the fundamentalist "religous" they go on about so much.

I really despise that tactic. Atheists aren't fundamentalists because they don't believe in fairies and someone isn't hostile because they call out arguments based solely on faith and feelings. We aren't narrow minded or bigoted either; some of the most accepting pluralistic people I've ever known who defend the rights of all minorities. You are in fact describing every well defined and accepted criticism of religion and flinging the mud onwards in the hope some of it might stick. Your paragraph is filled with nothing but your 'feelings' of atheists and a really poor highly unoriginal attempt to conflate fundamentalist belief in deities with a grounded belief in reality.

nozzferrahhtoo

katydid wrote: »

But I've also been astonished how close minded some people have been, totally unwilling to consider other angles from which to view things than their own fixed one.

"Open minded" to me has a very specific and clear meaning. It means a willingness to change ones mind on an issue if.... and this is the important part..... one is given compelling reason to do so.

I am a person who has a simple enough world view. It goes like this: If an idea comes before me without any arguments, evidence, data or reasoning to support it.... I simply do not subscribe to that idea. Simples.

The idea that there is a god is an idea that consistently comes before me without any arguments, evidence, data or reasoning to support it.... much less so from you or the posts you have made since arriving on this forum. I guess this makes me "atheist" though I rarely, if ever, use that world to label myself. I do not identify with the word.

So for me at least there is always this "willingness to consider other angles from which to view things" that you speak of. If the other party gives me something to consider. I personally do not find it an unfair summary to suggest the sum total of your posts so far have been "I believe it, because I believe it, just because I do, no one knows anything for sure, so thats that really".

And no matter how much "open mindedness" or "willingness to consider" I bring to bear on that.... I literally can not make anything of it except to say I am surprised you expected to hit anything but a discourse brick wall with that approach.

silverharp

katydid wrote: »

It seems to me that some atheists are very afraid of anyone with a bit of intelligence challenging their preconceived ideas about people who believe in a religion or a deity, and are, in their own way, as narrow minded and bigoted as the fundamentalist "religous" they go on about so much.

most of your arguments have revolved around that you believe in the invisible pink unicorn and we ought to do the same because it "cant be disproved", you probably ought to assume a bit more intelligence for the people you want to challenge with this proposition.
Also with the greatest respect you havnt demonstrated any particular "intelligence" more a slightly grating repetition hanging on the point I mentioned above

katydid

challengemaster wrote: »

Shocking. It's almost as if Atheists on the internet are actually real people, with their own opinions and capability to think for themselves. Truly amazing finding that not all Atheists are the same.

Similarly if you attempted to have this discussion in person, not everyone will be open minded and willing to hear about what they perceive as pure nonsense.

You're entitled to your opinion. Others are entitled to disagree. That's called life.

Absolutely no problem with that, although it is a bit shocking to find fundamentalist atheists who are as afraid of debate as fundamentalist Christians or Muslims.

The problem is when free speech is curtailed because of this attitude. When expressing an expectation that someone would educate themselves on a topic before commenting on it is declared "anti-social". If such an attitude were prevalent on a "religious" forum, atheists would, rightly, be jumping up and down.

katydid

silverharp wrote: »

most of your arguments have revolved around that you believe in the invisible pink unicorn and we ought to do the same because it "cant be disproved", you probably ought to assume a bit more intelligence for the people you want to challenge with this proposition.
Also with the greatest respect you havnt demonstrated any particular "intelligence" more a slightly grating repetition hanging on the point I mentioned above

Have you read the thread in question? Can you cite ONE PLACE where I said anyone else should believe what I believe?

What you wrote is WRONG.

If you're going to contribute to this thread, it would help to get your facts write.
(Am I allowed say that, or is it anti-social?)

katydid

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

"Open minded" to me has a very specific and clear meaning. It means a willingness to change ones mind on an issue if.... and this is the important part..... one is given compelling reason to do so.

I am a person who has a simple enough world view. It goes like this: If an idea comes before me without any arguments, evidence, data or reasoning to support it.... I simply do not subscribe to that idea. Simples.

The idea that there is a god is an idea that consistently comes before me without any arguments, evidence, data or reasoning to support it.... much less so from you or the posts you have made since arriving on this forum. I guess this makes me "atheist" though I rarely, if ever, use that world to label myself. I do not identify with the word.

So for me at least there is always this "willingness to consider other angles from which to view things" that you speak of. If the other party gives me something to consider. I personally do not find it an unfair summary to suggest the sum total of your posts so far have been "I believe it, because I believe it, just because I do, no one knows anything for sure, so thats that really".

And no matter how much "open mindedness" or "willingness to consider" I bring to bear on that.... I literally can not make anything of it except to say I am surprised you expected to hit anything but a discourse brick wall with that approach.

Open minded is not only about changing one's mind. Most of us have core principles to which we adhere, and we are not going to change our minds about them. Being open minded means also accepting that other people's opinions, even if we don't share them, have a validity, and that those who hold them are not morons because they don't have the same viewpoint as us.

I am not asking you to accept as true what I believe.

smacl

katydid wrote: »

Open minded is not only about changing one's mind. Most of us have core principles to which we adhere, and we are not going to change our minds about them. Being open minded means also accepting that other people's opinions, even if we don't share them, have a validity, and that those who hold them are not morons because they don't have the same viewpoint as us.

Not at all, what you have described there is closed mindedness. A willingness to listen to what other people have to say and then dismiss what they've said on the basis it conflicts with your fundamental core beliefs.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that because you believe in God you are a moron, simply that proposing something that cannot be proven or otherwise substantiated has no merit. I for one would be perfectly willing to accept the existence of a god, time travel or the efficacy of homoeopathy were compelling evidence forthcoming. Until this happens, I take the stance it is fantasy. Conversely, are you open minded enough to accept that your god may be no more than a fantasy? I guess not, and if not, I ask myself the question what are you doing on an atheist forum? The only deduction I can come up with is to prosletyse, which I personally consider unpleasant.

nozzferrahhtoo

katydid wrote: »

Most of us have core principles to which we adhere, and we are not going to change our minds about them.

I will take your word for it, but I do not identify with it. Aside from the world view I described above, I can think of no principle or idea I have which is not amenable to change.

I will not accept claims without substantiation. Other than that I can think of no core principle I hold which is not ready to change the moment I am given compelling reason to do so.

katydid wrote: »

Being open minded means also accepting that other people's opinions, even if we don't share them, have a validity

I evaluate those opinions as and when they are presented to me, and I consider what basis or substantiation they have. It is from there that I determine their validity for myself. They do not gain validity for me merely for existing, and this definition of "open minded" you operate under is not one I share.

katydid wrote: »

I am not asking you to accept as true what I believe.

I do not recall suggesting you were. I merely pointed out that when someone expresses an opinion, regardless of whether they do so in the hope of convincing me of it or not, I automatically evaluate the substantiation they offer for it (in your case: None) and then file that in my mind accordingly.

The idea there is a god is a claim that is made without substantiation of any sort. There simply is no arguments, evidence, data or reasoning on offer to me to lend credence to the claim that a non-human intelligence is responsible for the creation and/or maintenance of our universe.

If you want to believe it anyway, that is grand, but I do not share your emotions in relation to the brick wall in discourse this has led you to repeatedly run into around here, or where the blame for the brick wall actually lies.

robindch

katydid wrote: »

If you're going to contribute to this thread, it would help to get your facts write. (Am I allowed say that, or is it anti-social?)

As you ask, no, it's a mildly unhelpful thing to say.

Try tone down the rhetoric a few notches, try take a step back and - instead of giving the impression that you're standing chin-to-chin with somebody else and sneering at them - try imagining that you're having a good coffee in a nice place with a old friend, and post accordingly.

silverharp

katydid wrote: »

Have you read the thread in question? Can you cite ONE PLACE where I said anyone else should believe what I believe?

What you wrote is WRONG.

If you're going to contribute to this thread, it would help to get your facts write.
(Am I allowed say that, or is it anti-social?)

But I take from your arguments that you think people here are closed minded aka wrong because they don't accept your space teapot "logic". You want us to suspend our logic so we can see things as you do.

katydid

silverharp wrote: »

But I take from your arguments that you think people here are closed minded aka wrong because they don't accept your space teapot "logic". You want us to suspend our logic so we can see things as you do.

You haven't come up with even ONE example of my insisting that you believe what I believe?

Are you now prepared to admit that you were dishonest when you said that?

katydid

robindch wrote: »

As you ask, no, it's a mildly unhelpful thing to say.

Try tone down the rhetoric a few notches, try take a step back and - instead of giving the impression that you're standing chin-to-chin with somebody else and sneering at them - try imagining that you're having a good coffee in a nice place with a old friend, and post accordingly.

Out of curiosity, why is it mildly unhelpful to suggest that someone inform themselves? I would have thought it was quite the opposite. It is always helpful when one speaks from a point of knowledge.

If a friend, old or new, said something untrue about me, I certainly wouldn't hesitate to say so. Friends can accept mild criticism.

jank

In some ways I am sympathetic to the OP's view. Many of the regulars who post here very much define themselves by their atheism much like many religious people define their lives by their theism.

In contrast most of the atheists or agnostics I met in the real world are not the back-slapping, thanks whoring types that often comes across on this forum. This place is a bit clicky but if you stick around you will see that there are a few, not many but a few posters who actually are open-minded and write intelligent thought provoking posts. Ignore the other 95% of the dross (like most of the internet I guess). 'God made them do it' for example is favourite AH style retort, correcting spelling is another. There is a tendency for unpopular opinions to be thrown to the wolves, regardless of their merit, logic or accuracy which can be disappointing.

Of course it is also the internet as Peregrinus said (he is a great poster, always thought provoking). Many of the people who have given it to me over the years here wouldn't dare do it to me to my face, that is the nature of 21st century communication. Lastly pick your battles.

robindch

katydid wrote: »

Friends can accept mild criticism.

People here on boards are not your friends. They don't know you, just as you don't know them. All posters here have to go on is what you write. Which means that you can't behave as you might with an old friend, even one willing to accept poor manners and impoliteness upon your part.

A+A is a discussion forum, so what does not work here is touchiness, evasion and finger-pointing. What does work here is politeness, humor and posts which provoke thought and discussion.

RikuoAmero

I am under no illusion that this post or my ability to post on this thread will last any more than five minutes, but even if, in those five minutes

Hmm...this thread is almost twelve hours old as I write this. I think you might have made a teeny tiny mistake there Katy.

The problem is when free speech is curtailed because of this attitude.

...when and where did this happen to you? At most, as far as I recall, you got warnings from a mod for the attitude in some of your posts, but I don't recall anything from you being deleted or you being prevented from posting.

seamus

katydid wrote: »

Being open minded means also accepting that other people's opinions, even if we don't share them, have a validity

Oh no no, that's a common error to make.

Open mindedness is a characteristic of being willing to accept evidence as valid regardless of what your beliefs are and assess that evidence honestly. People who are closed-minded are those who are unwilling to accept evidence which contradicts their beliefs or cannot assess it honestly.

Disregarding an opinion out of hand does not make someone closed-minded, if that opinion cannot be backed up with evidence.

An opinion existing does not in isolation make it a valid one and does not mean it has any validity. It's a common mistake made to confuse opinion with evidence.

smacl

katydid wrote: »

It seems to me that some atheists are very afraid of anyone with a bit of intelligence challenging their preconceived ideas about people who believe in a religion or a deity, and are, in their own way, as narrow minded and bigoted as the fundamentalist "religous" they go on about so much.

Implication: You are more intelligent than other posters here, who are narrow minded bigots.

katydid wrote: »

Out of curiosity, why is it mildly unhelpful to suggest that someone inform themselves? I would have thought it was quite the opposite. It is always helpful when one speaks from a point of knowledge.

Implication: People here are uninformed. You on the other hand are knowledgeable.

Do you really wonder why get a sense of hostility from other posters here? Really? Your arrogance leaves most of the other posters in the shade. Again I'd ask, what exactly brings you to an atheist forum if you're going to get upset by remarks that don't respect your religious beliefs?

smacl

jank wrote: »

This place is a bit clicky but if you stick around you will see that there are a few, not many but a few posters who actually are open-minded and write intelligent thought provoking posts. Ignore the other 95% of the dross (like most of the internet I guess). 'God made them do it' for example is favourite AH style retort, correcting spelling is another.

(**cough**) Erm, cliquey? (Ducks).

silverharp

katydid wrote: »

You haven't come up with even ONE example of my insisting that you believe what I believe?

Are you now prepared to admit that you were dishonest when you said that?

I'm on a phone at the moment so no I'm not going read over the other thread again , but what other inference can i take when u say people here are closed minded.
And if u dont mind me saying you brought very little to the discussion on the other thread, very little history science etc which one would hope would be littered with the ripples of evidence of their creator?

Falcon L

I believe that there is a dinosaur on a treadmill in the centre of the earth. The treadmill generates gravity, which holds us all on this spinning planet, against centrifugal force.

I have no evidence of it's existence, but there is gravity, right? There were dinosaurs, right? I don't understand why nobody else believes the same as me with all this proof.

How likely is the above? Just as likely as a god that created the lot and is supposed to love us, in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

I also don't attach myself to the atheist clan. I just don't do religion. I have no disrespect for true believers, the notion simply baffles me. That is all.

silverharp

katydid wrote: »

Open minded is not only about changing one's mind. Most of us have core principles to which we adhere, and we are not going to change our minds about them. Being open minded means also accepting that other people's opinions, even if we don't share them, have a validity, and that those who hold them are not morons because they don't have the same viewpoint as us.

I am not asking you to accept as true what I believe.

It depends on the situation , if a Mormon came to my door I would have to inform him that he believes in an obvious con dreamed up by a charlatan. Not all viewpoints deserve respect if they fly in the face of reality.
Your logic is better suited to things like literature or poetry

eviltwin

I always steer away from the theological debates on this board because it becomes a bit heated for me and tbh boring. I have no interest in defending my views or trying to catch others out in theirs.

I don't believe in God, many have tried to get me to change my mind and I'm open minded enough that I will listen to them but so far nothing has convinced me of the existence of a higher being. I'm not a militant atheist, I've no interest in converting people to atheism and I respect people's faith.

I agree with Katy in that there are people here who make me cringe when talking about the sky wizard or any other pejorative terms. But it is like a fairy story to me and others, I find it hard to understand people believing in what is really just a story with very little science or logic to back it up. And for the record I think most of the regulars here are very open minded and a lot more willing to respect the views than most of the people of faith posting on Boards. The major issue for most non believers I know is the imposition that religion has on their lives, the lack of rights for homosexuals, the difficulty re schools, issues such as abortion etc which understandably builds up resentment.

RikuoAmero

jank wrote:

This place is a bit clicky but if you stick around you will see that there are a few, not many but a few posters who actually are open-minded and write intelligent thought provoking posts.

Out of sheer curiosity, how would you rate my responses here in A+A? This question isn't just for jank, anyone else want to critique my response style?