SIPTU calling for €11.45 p/h minimum wage

PauloMN

Don't normally post here but thought this warranted debate:
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/siptu-calls-for-5-pay-increases-and-11-45-minimum-wage-1.2086867

I'm far from being an economics expert, but surely this is pure insanity? This would push up to having the highest minimum wage in Europe, if this table is correct:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_minimum_wage

For me, this would drive up the price of everything, we'd be back to square one and we'd take a huge hit in tourism and exports among other things. Surely the way to go is reducing taxes, taking as many people out of the tax net as possible and keeping us competitive?

How are organisations like SIPTU getting any support at all, coming out with recommendations like these?

Voltex

PauloMN wrote: »

Don't normally post here but thought this warranted debate:
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/siptu-calls-for-5-pay-increases-and-11-45-minimum-wage-1.2086867

I'm far from being an economics expert, but surely this is pure insanity? This would push up to having the highest minimum wage in Europe, if this table is correct:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_minimum_wage

For me, this would drive up the price of everything, we'd be back to square one and we'd take a huge hit in tourism and exports among other things. Surely the way to go is reducing taxes, taking as many people out of the tax net as possible and keeping us competitive?

How are organisations like SIPTU getting any support at all, coming out with recommendations like these?

JOC ranks second to Brendan Ogle as Ireland's number 1 certifiable Trade Union fruiter!

What the government needs to do is to focus on developing and sustaining the correct conditions that encourage entrepreneurial discovery and activity.

Just to start, a minimum wage of €11whatever would absolutely ensure that young people never get jobs, marginal trades and industries disappear, '000s of jobs lost, FDI gone- OVERNIGHT-.

The truth being that there is no government that will agree to a minimum wage anything like what JOC is looking for. The comments are populist and scream of a organisation that is seeking support to bolster a movement long bereft of popular public opinion. Mind you if I'm wrong and the government does agree to any increase in the minimum wage (which I fundamentally disagree with anyway) I will pack my bags..sell everything I own and get out of Ireland.

Steppenwolfe

Voltex wrote: »

Mind you if I'm wrong and the government does agree to any increase in the minimum wage (which I fundamentally disagree with anyway) I will pack my bags..sell everything I own and get out of Ireland.

That sounds pretty drastic. I presume it's just hyperbole. If the thought of the lowest paid workers in the state getting a few extra quid for their efforts evokes that type of reaction you have serious problems.

the_syco

If the min-wage goes up, how many people will see a drastic reduction in wage due to coming into the tax net?

Does this mean that businesses would have to pay an extra €5000? This would mean that 1 in 5 people would get let go from small businesses at the current level, with other charges also increasing.

Siptu, the country’s largest trade union, is to seek pay increases of 5 per cent across the public and private sectors.

Uhhhh... what? How exactly will be increase a wage increase by 5% to the private sector, and how many people, in a time that we're recovering, would be let go due to this bull**** proposal?

BoJack Horseman

The way income tax works, someone on €22k per year pays 4 times more tax than someone on €18k

The net difference between the 2 pay points is a little over €1k per year.

There should be some acknowledgement that those on €10-€11 are essentially minimum wage once tax is taken into account.

PauloMN

Steppenwolfe wrote: »

That sounds pretty drastic. I presume it's just hyperbole. If the thought of the lowest paid workers in the state getting a few extra quid for their efforts evokes that type of reaction you have serious problems.

I'd imagine it's not the thought of low paid earners getting a few extra quid that would provoke that reaction, but rather that the country would be put into a very bad place if that were to happen. I often hear your opinion being used in defence of raising the minimum wage as if people kind of enjoy low wage earners being on a low wage. It's so far wide of the mark it's scary.

Can you not see the massive, massive damage such a move would result in? How could small business survive with approx 30% wage cost increases overnight? How would an already fragile economy survive the huge dents to tourism? To export goods? Thousands of your staff on 11 per hour would very soon be on social welfare, and in a crippled economy, that wouldn't be long being slashed.

I'm just surprised some people seem to just believe any old populist claptrap fed to them without ANY attempt to scratch the surface and see what the consequences of such actions would actually mean.

The Muppet

That would mean someone on minimum wage would earn €429 Gross for a 39 hour week scandalous all together.

Voltex

Steppenwolfe wrote: »

That sounds pretty drastic. I presume it's just hyperbole. If the thought of the lowest paid workers in the state getting a few extra quid for their efforts evokes that type of reaction you have serious problems.

My reaction would be in consequence to a State that thinks for one second that a minimum wage of €11+ p/h is for the collective good.
Maybe JOC is trying to outshine Alex Tsipras for the Euro nutter of the year??

Manach

The minimum wage is an important issue. There are different view points from across the spectrum citing sources praising or damning it or changes to it. By its nature it can be very easily politicised and used as a convenient tool to stir up popularism or attract lobbyists. Thus being so political, perhaps it needs to taken away from the hands of the most corrupt (politicans) and allowed to be set by those most effected by changes, the people. The Swiss have regularised debates on such and can set their's via a referendum. Given the leanings of this current government for social change via such a mechanism, there should be little resistance from that quarter :rolleyes:

Dunford

Usual SITPU rubbish. Idiots.

Voltex

Manach wrote: »

The minimum wage is an important issue. There are different view points from across the spectrum citing sources praising or damning it or changes to it. By its nature it can be very easily politicised and used as a convenient tool to stir up popularism or attract lobbyists. Thus being so political, perhaps it needs to taken away from the hands of the most corrupt (politicans) and allowed to be set by those most effected by changes, the people. The Swiss have regularised debates on such and can set their's via a referendum. Given the leanings of this current government for social change via such a mechanism, there should be little resistance from that quarter :rolleyes:

Very well put. That for me is how debates on such issues should be characterised.
In my opinion prices are far more than just a number..they define the value of a product or service via the mechanisms of the free market. If we take the free market mechanics as a given it becomes implicit that any of the factors of production for that product or service are also subject to market dynamics that influence the price of the final product. The effects of subventions like the minimum wage is that they corrupt the real market dynamics of price setting.

Yiikes

Trying to find a flexible part time job as a student is hard enough €11.45 would make it impossible.

Greenmachine

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

The way income tax works, someone on €22k per year pays 4 times more tax than someone on €18k

The net difference between the 2 pay points is a little over €1k per year.

There should be some acknowledgement that those on €10-€11 are essentially minimum wage once tax is taken into account.

Absolutely correct. There is a range of point where the USC and PAYE kick in where you would be down on money. Your tax liability increases substantially enough that you need to earn a few thousand more just to be where you would be at the €18k point.

The Muppet

There's no doubt some sections could well afford to pay their workers a little extra .

http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/ireland-supermarket-profits-1896543-Jan2015/

PauloMN

The Muppet wrote: »

There's no doubt some sections could well afford to pay their workers a little extra .

http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/ireland-supermarket-profits-1896543-Jan2015/

That's separate from a statutory minimum wage though. Anyway I think rules around contracts for such workers should be tightened up before anything else. It's clear that some of those companies are abusing employees with zero hour contracts etc..

Steppenwolfe

PauloMN wrote: »

I'd imagine it's not the thought of low paid earners getting a few extra quid that would provoke that reaction, but rather that the country would be put into a very bad place if that were to happen. I often hear your opinion being used in defence of raising the minimum wage as if people kind of enjoy low wage earners being on a low wage. It's so far wide of the mark it's scary.

Can you not see the massive, massive damage such a move would result in? How could small business survive with approx 30% wage cost increases overnight? How would an already fragile economy survive the huge dents to tourism? To export goods? Thousands of your staff on 11 per hour would very soon be on social welfare, and in a crippled economy, that wouldn't be long being slashed.

I'm just surprised some people seem to just believe any old populist claptrap fed to them without ANY attempt to scratch the surface and see what the consequences of such actions would actually mean.

OMG. I never realised it would mean the end of irish civilisation as we know it. :eek:

Do you people actually believe this garbage you spout in here. How many of you are living of the sweat of these low paid workers? Must be quite a few judging by some of the bile I see thrown around in here. I better stop before I say something I regret. You people ...

Paulzx

Nobody here obviously knows anything about haggling or driving a hard bargain. Do you actually run small businesses?


If Jack O Connor wanted a 5% pay increase he'd have looked for 10% today.

Jesus lads.......I'm surprised at your niavety

PauloMN

Steppenwolfe wrote: »

OMG. I never realised it would mean the end of irish civilisation as we know it. :eek:

Do you people actually believe this garbage you spout in here. How many of you are living of the sweat of these low paid workers? Must be quite a few judging by some of the bile I see thrown around in here. I better stop before I say something I regret. You people ...

I notice you didn't actually answer any of the concerns I've raised above. Those who come up with these completely impractical ideas never do address reality.

You think that raising Ireland's min wage from an already high level to the highest in the Eurozone in a fragile economy would be completely without consequence and would simply give the low waged more spending power? Simple as that?

Lol, there's only one person here believing garbage and that's you.

Godge

Does anybody have the statistics for the share of GDP taken by income as opposed to capital for the last decade. There are bound to have been drastic changes as a result of the boom and subsequent recession.

Before taking a view on this, those statistics would be interesting.

jank

Raising the min wage will just make it harder for unskilled and low skilled workers to get jobs. It will also increase automation and technology never mind companies will look to out source to cheaper countries. Stupid comments by SIPTU.

the_syco

The Muppet wrote: »

There's no doubt some sections could well afford to pay their workers a little extra .

http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/ireland-supermarket-profits-1896543-Jan2015/

Maybe. But they'll just put more people on zero-hour contracts.

=-=

As for a reason why we shouldn't increase the min wage; Dell.

Raising the min wage wouldn't be shooting oneself in the foot; it'd be double-barrell shotgun kneecapping ourselves!

Kermit.de.frog

How many low paid jobs would be lost under this proposal? Nuff said.

Steppenwolfe

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

How many low paid jobs would be lost under this proposal? Nuff said.

Who gives a ****? Nuff said.

Steppenwolfe

Voltex wrote: »

My reaction would be in consequence to a State that thinks for one second that a minimum wage of €11+ p/h is for the collective good.
Maybe JOC is trying to outshine Alex Tsipras for the Euro nutter of the year??

You better start packing your bags so. The Tsipras victory is only the start for Europe. The tide is turning and it's going to sweep you lot away like a tsunami.

PauloMN

Steppenwolfe wrote: »

You better start packing your bags so. The Tsipras victory is only the start for Europe. The tide is turning and it's going to sweep you lot away like a tsunami.

Who is "you lot"? I assume you mean those of us who are concerned that raising the minimum wage would have a very damaging effect on our economy?

As for Greece - completely different situation to Ireland. Absolute basket case of an economy. What has happened in Greece won't happen here, thankfully.

Guy:Incognito

Steppenwolfe wrote: »

Who gives a ****? Nuff said.

The people currently in those jobs probably give a ****.

Guy:Incognito

Steppenwolfe wrote: »

You better start packing your bags so. The Tsipras victory is only the start for Europe. The tide is turning and it's going to sweep you lot away like a tsunami.

Yeah the sooner they can all get back to not paying tax and get that silly neutral budget they just got turned back in to a deficit the better for everyone :rolleyes:

Yiikes

Steppenwolfe wrote: »

You better start packing your bags so. The Tsipras victory is only the start for Europe. The tide is turning and it's going to sweep you lot away like a tsunami.

You a comedian?

the_syco

Yiikes wrote: »

You a comedian?

This is what their current leader got elected on.

BoJack Horseman

Steppenwolfe wrote: »

The Tsipras victory is only the start for Europe. The tide is turning and it's going to sweep you lot away like a tsunami.

Love it!

1 communist electoral victory & the reds are already out making threats to people.

Tis a grand future they desire.

Geuze

Godge wrote: »

Does anybody have the statistics for the share of GDP taken by income as opposed to capital for the last decade. There are bound to have been drastic changes as a result of the boom and subsequent recession.

Before taking a view on this, those statistics would be interesting.

A good question.

Irish data would be skewed by MNC, IFSC, external factors, though.