Is VHI for the very elderly a waste?

Comer1

My elderly parents considering cancelling their VHI. They are in their mid and early eighties. I think it's a bad idea and am trying to convince them to let us help them pay it. They are insisting that at their age it's a waste and that even their doctor agrees with them (so they say anyway). What do people here think?

Thanks

Munstermissy

My mother is 82 and in the last 2 years has been in and out of hospital for various operations (hip breaks), etc. Now is when she is getting the value. If your parents are in good health maybe not but if they can afford it it probably is the better option as you never know what the future holds.

Jezek

Comer1 wrote: »

My elderly parents considering cancelling their VHI. They are in their mid and early eighties. I think it's a bad idea and am trying to convince them to let us help them pay it. They are insisting that at their age it's a waste and that even their doctor agrees with them (so they say anyway). What do people here think?

Thanks

Knock on wood, it's at this age that people need a lot of healthcare. Interventions and treatments can be very costly, so I would say it's not a waste at all!

Chris_5339762

At their age, keep it without a doubt. If they wait a year then want to go back on there are significant waiting periods.

fits

Not a waste at all. Tell them to keep it. Access to private hospitals can be very helpful at this stage of life.

efb

It's the most cost effective age

maringo

Definitely very important to keep up thier private cover especially as they are elderly and likely to need medical care more as they get older. If costs are a problem have a look at an equivalent plan with the other health insurers. I moved from VHI last year when their fee skyrocketed and got it much cheaper with Laya. Askaboutmoney.com has some information on health insurance which might be helpful. HIA website too. I changed after listening to Conor Pope comparing the different plans last year. Well worth your while to do a bit of research to bring the cost down.

good information here
http://askaboutmoney.com/forums/health-insurance-and-healthcare-costs.100/

therecklessone

My then 60 year old mother spent the best part of a year waiting on surgery on a bowel complaint, including one cancelled operation.

She finally got seen to when an undiagnosed abscess on her bowel burst putting her in septic shock and requiring a colostomy followed by a week in intensive care.

She subsequently developed a hernia on the site of her stoma requiring another bowel section (ileostomy) which was only provided when she suffered kidney failure requiring another stint in intensive care.

She has since been diagnosed with COPD (a progressive pulmonary disorder) and has recently finished a two month stay in hospital after a bout of pneumonia that was brushed off as a cough by her GP.

She let her VHI lapse in the late 80s when paying truly extortionate tax rates, so is at the mercy of the public health service.

OP, just pay it whether they want it or not. The piece of mind it will give you is priceless.

Duckett

Older policy holders cancelling their cover is a false economy.

Comer1

Thanks to you all for your opinions, much appreciated. They are currently on Plan B and they tell me it's costing about €5000 per year for both of them. Would that be the normal cost for a couple their age?

Tails142

Everyone pays the same rate for a health plan in Ireland regardless of age, VHI Plan B is quoted as about €1800 - that's including a tax deduction at source which maybe they're not getting.

The HIA website is very good to compare plans

They could for example be on a similar plan for €600 with Laya that has an excess of €500 to be paid if you make a visit to a private hospital. Plan B is a total ripoff to be honest but my own mother is on it too and trying to explain stuff like this to your parents is hard work!

Kristopherus

Comer1 wrote: »

Thanks to you all for your opinions, much appreciated. They are currently on Plan B and they tell me it's costing about €5000 per year for both of them. Would that be the normal cost for a couple their age?

IMHO they are paying way over the odds. Of course VHI are only too happy to keep them paying that amount. I'm presuming they have medical cards. If so, they could shed a lot of optional stuff that they may have. Medical card will cover their GP, medicines and entitlement to appliances, if needed.

What you should do is get hold of their policy and determine what it covers. Then go on to the VHI, Laya, Aviva & Glohealth websites and enter the details of the cover they have. Those websites are all .ie by the way. See what comes up. Then have a chat with your folks and trim down the cover they will never need/use. Repeat the exercise with the providers again and see who comes up best. Remember the health insurance companies are not allowed to "load" older applicants.

LostArt

VHI / Laya comparison

http://bit.ly/1uROwvG

Duckett

€5k for what was the old plan B is excessive. The Health Insurance comparison site hia.ie is well worth looking at

Toots

Just make sure and double check that no waiting periods apply if they switch providers. €5k is a massive amount to spend per year, but they've been paying into it all their lives so it's a huge waste to get rid of it now. Access to private healthcare at their age is so important purely because of the shorter waiting times. Not wanting to be too blunt here, but if it was a 'non urgent' procedure and they were going through the public system, they could well pass away during the waiting period.

To give you an idea, when I was 19 I got a pilonidal sinus and needed surgery. Not the most urgent thing in the world, but still bloody painful. The waiting period to get it seen to in a public hospital, at the time, was roughly 36 months. I went private and had the operation within 8 weeks. Just before it got diagnosed, I was going to go off my parents VHI and get my own but my mum said to stay on their VHI until after the operation because they'd been paying for me since I was born and they'd never made a claim, so they may as well get their moneys worth

If your parents don't want to switch providers, VHI would have alternate plans that would give equivalent cover at a lower rate than that.

Outkast_IRE

The only time they will realise its value is when they get rid of it and suddenly they need to go to A&E or similar and spend days/nights on the corridors listening to drunks/drug users/dregs of society.

With health insurance they can go to local GP or emergency hours doc and get a referral straight to a private hospital. Madness to give up VHI now.

My girlfriends elderly father just spent almost 2 years on the public waiting list for a hip even though he could not function or move without heavy doses of pain killers for the last 18 months. With private he would of been seen within weeks with how serious his condition is.

seamus

My Dad at 65 has had six or seven pretty big surgeries in the last five years including open heart surgery and the amputation of two toes.

I'm pretty sure if he didn't have private health insurance he would probably be still on a waiting list for that heart surgery since it wasn't life-threatening, or he would be dead - the doctor found and repaired and undiagnosed aortic aneurysm when he went in.

I would say private health cover is practically essential for anyone over 50. That's when you really start developing those big issues that leave you languishing on waiting lists for years.

Comer1

I've just gotten hold of their VHI cover and it has left me very confused. They are on HealthPlus Extra which should be €2,234 each, but according to their policy, looks as follows: one has Gross Premium of €4,684 with R.E. Premium credit of €2,250 and the other has Gross Premium of €6,434 with R.E. Premium Credit of €4,000. After €200 Tax Relief each, it's coming to almost €4,700.

I'm realizing that I know really very little about this very complicated market as I'm afraid I really don't understand these figures at all.

Comer1

Just doing comparisons of plans (thanks to a link supplied in this thread) and there seems to be very little advantage to my parents in being in HealthPlus Extra over HealthPlus Access.

Before I suggest that they change I need to understand their current figures. At €2,250 each minus €200 Tax relief, they should be paying €4,100

LostArt

Comer1 wrote: »

I've just gotten hold of their VHI cover and it has left me very confused. They are on HealthPlus Extra which should be €2,234 each, but according to their policy, looks as follows: one has Gross Premium of €4,684 with R.E. Premium credit of €2,250 and the other has Gross Premium of €6,434 with R.E. Premium Credit of €4,000. After €200 Tax Relief each, it's coming to almost €4,700.

I'm realizing that I know really very little about this very complicated market as I'm afraid I really don't understand these figures at all.

It's the net premium you need to look at, forget about gross or premium credits (these figures relate to the risk equalisation scheme).

Both net premiums will be €2,234.

Comer1

That makes sense (my maths are a little off above :rolleyes:)

Comparing to my own policy, I'm on Teacher's Plan Select which is €1,178 with €200 tax relief giving Net Premium of €978. My parents, on the other hand, their plan is €2,234 but their Net Premium is also €2,234 after the €200 (and R.E. Premium Credit) is subtracted. Are they not getting the tax relief because they are on a pension?

LostArt

They are getting the tax relief, everybody does.

I think your figures are wrong, Teachers Plan Select net premium (after all reliefs) is €1174

Comer1

LostArt wrote: »

I think your figures are wrong

Very possible

My teachers plan Gross Premium and Gross Amount After R.E. Premium Credit (March 2014) is €1178.44, after Tax Relief At Source (€200), it's €978.44 That's what I pay

My Parents Policy, HealthPlus Extra (July 2014) costs €2,234.00 Their Gross Amount After R.E. Premium Credit is €2,434.00 and after Tax Relief At Source (€200), it's €2,234.00. I'm wondering why I'm paying €200 less than my policy cost and they are not.

LostArt

You are all getting a €200 tax relief reduction, your post above says that.

1178.44 - 200 = 978.44
2434 - 200 = 2234

Comer1

My understanding is that my premium costs €1178, I pay €978, their Premium is €2234, they pay €2234

Kristopherus

Comer1 wrote: »

My understanding is that my premium costs €1178, I pay €978, their Premium is €2234, they pay €2234

What is covered in that €2234? Do they have Medical Cards?

Comer1

Kristopherus wrote: »

What is covered in that €2234? Do they have Medical Cards?

That's the cost of the HealthPlus Extra plan. Yes, they do have Medical Cards.

LostArt

Comer1 wrote: »

My understanding is that my premium costs €1178, I pay €978, their Premium is €2234, they pay €2234

their gross premium is 2434, they pay 2234.

Kristopherus

Comer1 wrote: »

That's the cost of the HealthPlus Extra plan. Yes, they do have Medical Cards.

Well, the Med Card covers aids & appliances & wigs. So they could drop that.

Will they be travelling abroad?

When I look at that plan on the VHI website, I find they are selective in the details. I'm pretty sure that the plan covers Gp, and all the ancillary therapists.

You would need to look closely at whats covered. There may be a bit more you can prune. You could drop Maternity Cover immediately, but the insurance companies don't allow that !!!!

Get a list of the cover and try out the other providers. At least you will then know if VHI are way off the mark or not. Also please note there is no waiting period if they do transfer to another provider.

Mr E

A relative of mine just had heart surgery that would have cost over 30k without health insurance.

You may begrudge it while you're paying it (while healthy), but when you need it, you'll be thankful that it's there.

coylemj

I'm pretty sure that if you asked that question (the thread title) off someone who works for the VHI, they would fall around the place laughing. Risk equalization is in place precisely because the VHI's customer profile is much older than those of the newer players in the market so VHI's average annual payout per customer is significantly higher. That should answer the question.

Without risk equalization, VHI's younger customers would move en masse to the other players where they would get lower premiums and the VHI would quickly be insolvent.

Of course in another 20 years BUPA will probably come back for another 'smash and grab' and the whole saga will start all over again. Absolutely disgraceful that Mary Harney gave them a holiday from risk equalization and let them pocket millions by cherry picking companies with young populations (e.g. Microsoft) and then abandoning ship when they had to play by the same rules as everyone else.

exgp

The older they are, the more likely it is that they will need it.

Daisy 55

Not always. My mother is in her early 80s. Was diagnosed with lung cancer last summer unfortunately. VHI has been of very little use to her.

coylemj

Daisy 55 wrote: »

Not always. My mother is in her early 80s. Was diagnosed with lung cancer last summer unfortunately. VHI has been of very little use to her.

Sorry to hear that but the exception doesn't prove the rule. There are lots of situations where the VHI makes no difference - emergency treatment via A&E or instances where medical science can offer no solution.

An awful lot of older people need remedial work on hips, knees etc. and would be on a waiting list for years in the public system waiting for treatment.

Daisy 55

I know, but the local private hospital doesn't accept emergency admissions, so we end up in a&e if there's a crisis anywa! At a certain age, hips and knees aren't going to be viable to mend surgically...

coylemj

Daisy 55 wrote: »

I know, but the local private hospital doesn't accept emergency admissions, so we end up in a&e if there's a crisis anywa! At a certain age, hips and knees aren't going to be viable to mend surgically...

The point you're making is the same as saying that if you live in a house for 30 years and it doesn't go on fire, it means that you shouldn't have bothered paying for fire insurance.

You can't predict what's going to happen when you get very old, you may or may not benefit from VHI or similar insurance. All we're saying is that typically older people draw more from health insurance than they pay in as premiums which means that as an economic proposition, it makes sense to maintain cover as you get older.

exgp

Daisy 55 wrote: »

Not always. My mother is in her early 80s. Was diagnosed with lung cancer last summer unfortunately. VHI has been of very little use to her.

I am very sorry to hear that. However Lung Cancer has a very poor outlook no matter your age, income or insurance level. Heart problems, chest problems and the other common problems of the elder patients are made a lot more comfortable (and surviveable) with private insurance.

Jack the Box

Mr E wrote: »

A relative of mine just had heart surgery that would have cost over 30k without health insurance.

You may begrudge it while you're paying it (while healthy), but when you need it, you'll be thankful that it's there.

Surely they wouldn't have had to pay 30k out of their pockets ???

Gael23

My grandparents are in their late 70s and thankfully remarkably healthy. If there is one thing that they can have its their health insurance. They have a top of the range policy costing €2k each per year which may be a bit OTT for some but when you get older, declining health is almost inevitable and is the time of life when you most need your health insurance.
I do feel for that age group living on limited incomes and trying to make things stretch but I think as you said if the family can help out it would work well