Thinking of starting BJJ

Boom_Bap

If you roll with a more experienced person, you notice they are moving fluently rather than with strength. Once you learn to do that, you get less wrecked.

Chris89

FTA69 wrote: »

Yeah, started rolling my first class and every class had a heavy emphasis on sparring. I think another factor was that some classes we didn't really warm up properly in a cold gym and that led to lots of pulls and strains.

There are few 'absolute rules' in jiu jitsu, there will always be exceptions.. but in my experience starting sparring too early will turn more people away from training than anything else!

I personally started this way, spar on the first day. There were no beginners classes so from day 1 i was training and sparring with more experienced grapplers. I was young and fit, and i enjoyed and benefited from this style of training. But a lot of people knocked it on the head pretty early.

If you are introduced to jiu jitsu like this, its very likely that you will be roughed up in your first few classes. Its generally accepted in the jiu jitsu community (especially among the more old school academies) that there is a bit of a baptism with fire in BJJ and you will have to tough it out as a beginner and ony the strong will survive etc. I agree that this is beneficial and will probably breed tougher training partners and martial artists but heres a few thoughts..

I teach the beginners classes at our academy, and even though myself and all the other instructors sparred from day 1 in our training - there is NO sparring in our beginners classes.
We have a warm up, consisting of isolated movement patterns which will be required for the technique in the class to come (hip escapes, bridges, technical stand ups) and some body weight exercises and movements to get the blood flowing and the joints warm!

Then for the rest of the class, we practice technique, usually starting with just one and expanding on it to create a whole sequence by the end of the class. For example, the first technique might be a closed guard opening and pass to the side control. By the end of the class we will be practicing opening the guard, passing to the side control, transitioning to the mount, and finishing with an armbar.

We have plenty of open mat time at the academy, so we make sparring OPTIONAL for all beginners. Most take the opportunity for a couple of spars early, but do so at their own pace! Maybe just one the first day after class, then two the next week and so on! But quite a few students prefer to stick with the technique, let their bodies adjust to moving on the floor and around another person! A lot of people tell me they woke up sore all over after one of our beginners classes, even without sparring jiu jitsu can be very challenging on the body if you have never done any movement like this!

This method caters to both types of student, the fit and able and the students looking to become fit and able.


In a gym where you spar from day 1, it is likely that the beginners get mushed around and tapped regularly for their first few months. If i have been training like this for 5 months, and a new beginner comes into class to spar, i will be delighted that i get to spar with someone i can beat, and its a fair bet that i will unleash my full capacity of wrath on you - as its my first opportunity to finally tap someone! The new guy will either get turned away, as he is getting injured, or intimidated or whatever. OR he will stick around like me, and in 5 months time will be pulling the head off some other poor young lad on his first day.

Like i said before, this will toughen you up for sure, people who train like this are usually very hard to submit later in their careers, probably two big cauliflower ears and can grind it out with most on the mat. BUT it also turns a lot of newbies away.

When sparring is an option, you can still become the tough untappable behemoth i mentioned above, but you can also ease yourself in if you are unfit, nervous, young, small in stature or whatever.

I will say though, that those who avoid sparring for too long, usually have a grand understanding of the technique, but when they do eventually spar they crumble under any sign of real pressure, often lack that grit and determination to battle out of a dodgy position. So even though it is not compulsory, I still advise beginners to try it within the first few weeks!

For anyone thinking about trying BJJ, consider the above. One option might appeal to you more than the other. And for anyone who gave up after a few weeks, consider the above also!

If you had no experience of football, and you came to my football class, and i showed you how to take a corner kick and how to do a throw in - and told you to go off and play a full 90 minute match with more experienced players at the end of class - you probably wouldn't be scoring too many goals anyway.


Sorry for the long post, this is something i have been thinking about recently so had a few thoughts fresh in the head!

be interested to hear some of your guys opinions/experiences of this

dardis

Chris89 wrote: »

If you had no experience of football, and you came to my football class, and i showed you how to take a corner kick and how to do a throw in - and told you to go off and play a full 90 minute match with more experienced players at the end of class - you probably wouldn't be scoring too many goals anyway.

Nice

Clive

Chris89 wrote: »

There are few 'absolute rules' in jiu jitsu ...
be interested to hear some of your guys opinions/experiences of this

+1 to all of this. I had an interesting conversation with another coach about this recently - he had a great phrase for it " coaching masturbation" (sorry mods!). Taking someone who is fit, dedicated and driven, teach them a few techniques and send them off to win medals isn't that difficult. That type of person you can set doing a drill, head off for a cup of coffee and when you come back they'll be doing exactly what they were told.

Taking someone unfit, nervous and timid and helping them flourish is far more rewarding to me.

Doug Cartel

Chris89 wrote: »

Sorry for the long post, this is something i have been thinking about recently so had a few thoughts fresh in the head!

be interested to hear some of your guys opinions/experiences of this

This probably deserves a thread on its own to be honest. I can split it off if you want.

Anyway, I used to be captain of my judo club in college, and one of my main duties was meet and greet the new members, answer their questions and try and help them get settled in. From this experience I can tell you that the majority of people get scared off by being thrown into sparring on their first night.

On the other hand there is still a sizeable minority who really like the fact that they can get stuck in straight away. Personally I did randori/rolling/whatever you want to call it of my first judo session and I loved it. I'm not even sure why I went to the class, as I was training muay thai at the time, but after a few rounds of judo I was an instant convert.

I agree that sparring should be optional, and furthermore I think it should be opt-in not opt-out, at least for the first while, and it needs to be made clear to the beginners that they are not expected to do it until they have had a chance to get to understand what is expected of them.

There have been a few times in more than one club where I have been partnered up with someone and it turns out they haven't got a clue what the rules are, or even what they are supposed to be doing. This is after they have already had several rounds against other beginners who don't have much of a clue themselves. I don't think anyone should be put in that position.

When I started, I was only partnered with experienced people, and they made damn sure I knew what the rules were, stopping any time there was an issue and explaining everything to me. If I had been partnered up with a beginner, I probably would not have had such a positive experience. To say the least.

I will say though, that those who avoid sparring for too long, usually have a grand understanding of the technique, but when they do eventually spar they crumble under any sign of real pressure, often lack that grit and determination to battle out of a dodgy position. So even though it is not compulsory, I still advise beginners to try it within the first few weeks!

I think the thing here is that you are going to take a while to get used to sparring and it's something you need to be eased into gradually. Simply delaying it just means you are still being thrown in the deep end all of a sudden, it's just happening later on.

I dislike when people go to either end of the scale, either making people spar straight away, or else holding it off for years and years, like it's something only advanced students should do. As with most things in life you have to strike a balance.

Doug Cartel

Clive wrote: »

Taking someone who is fit, dedicated and driven, teach them a few techniques and send them off to win medals isn't that difficult. That type of person you can set doing a drill, head off for a cup of coffee and when you come back they'll be doing exactly what they were told.

Taking someone unfit, nervous and timid and helping them flourish is far more rewarding to me.

How about trying to run a class which has to cater to both these people at once?

yourdeadwright

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

I would say if you relax a bit more it wont take so much out of you. Often lifters "hulk out" and try and squeeze their way through the class or rolls. If you chill out and loosen up you will find you can train much more regularly.

But of course I am sure you moved loads of muscles in a way they have not been moved in 5 years , a sure case of the aches if I ever heard one

- Don't roll like your life depended on it , or its the finals of the black belt mundials and you will be fine. Worse that happens, the guy passes your guard and/or you tap out and start again.

I think it was more from just moving in new ways, cause im pretty quick to tap and try my best to use movement more than strength, All round it was very enjoyable and looking forward to hitting the mats again tonight,

FTA69

There's also the other issue where some gyms have an "ultimate warrior" mentality where people get knocked to sh*t immediately in sparring. That's also something that p*sses me off. I compete at the boxing and still have no bother sparring everyone from women half my size to raw beginners, I can adjust myself to their level and try take something from the experience. (Obviously I wouldn't be doing that if I'd a fight coming up.) However in some gaffs they do have a "sink or swim" mentality which will put 95% of people off and you could lose someone potentially very good because everyone decided to hammer him in his first few days.

MartyMcFly84

some gyms have an "ultimate warrior" mentality

Smells like victory!

Mellor

I agree with the general point Chris89 was making. In that forcing people to spar and roughing them up serves isn't a great approach. In that case, not sparring for a while is probably the better option.

But I'd disagree that the options are polarised like that. You can spar without roughing them up. And maybe if you don't put them through a trial by fire starting out, they will be less inclined, when they a few months under their belt, to pull the head off some new beginners.

Chris89

Mellor wrote: »

I agree with the general point Chris89 was making. In that forcing people to spar and roughing them up serves isn't a great approach. In that case, not sparring for a while is probably the better option.

But I'd disagree that the options are polarised like that. You can spar without roughing them up. And maybe if you don't put them through a trial by fire starting out, they will be less inclined, when they a few months under their belt, to pull the head off some new beginners.

A newcomer to sparring in many cases will rough themselves up. Perhaps 'roughing up' was not the best choice of words on my part.
Exerting too much energy in all positions, trying to move your opponent instead of moving yourself, incorrect breathing, adrenaline, ego issues. All of these will play a part in how a beginner may feel after their first day of sparring.

While we are all practicing the same martial art, we all bring different life experiences to the mat. And while I certainly wouldnt 'rough up' a beginner myself, i cannot say the same for everyone! I am not saying anyone is intentionally wrecking the new guy so he wont come back, or having flashbacks to their first spar and taking it out on their new partner.

But, as I (and maybe you?) have been sparring for a long time, with lots of different people, I have the experience to read my partner. A few examples would be - listen to their breathing, feel the tension in their muscles, see if they appear panicked.
Because I am experienced enough in sparring to remain calm and assess all of this, I can make the correct decisions on how to manage the 'fight' and protect my partner from injury.

I would say it is rare that a newcomer is injured, roughed up, or turned off the sport by an experienced grappler.

I think the issue is new lads getting beaten up by slightly less new lads.

I doubt there is any real malice behind any of these incidents, just lack of awareness, ego control, inability to stay calm.

At the end of the day though, an ould roughing up will serve you well. Too many softboys walking around this world thinking theyre unstoppable.

I suppose theres a time and a place for sending someone home with their tail between their legs!

darced

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Chris89

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You are like me so, and many others. But there are people who would (for reasons listed before- and many more) need to take it a bit slower or else theyll pack it in after the first week.

Plenty of killers at our school who started slow and can go at it hard now!

Andrew H

Mouthalmighty wrote: »

Never heard of team balance but Bjj Revolution is (if I'm not mistaken) is Andy Ryan's gym. Trust us train there he's a pioneer of the sport of BJJ and MMA in Ireland, a black belt in Bjj and Judo and an excellent coach to boot. A serious dude to train with.

Phil Migliarise is the leader of Team Balance and in this podcast he tells us about his life choices and how he became involved in leading Team Balance, receiving his 5th degree Black Belt from Relson Gracie and talking about his 35 affiliates though out the World.

Team Balance Ireland are lucky enough to have an affiliation to Team Balance and Ray Butcher has received his Black Belt off of Phil.

Team Balance Ireland trains with Phil and Rick as much as possible through our affiliation and we have Team Balance Members coming to Dublin and going over to Philly to train and offer their advice on training on a regular basis.

Here is the link to Phil's life story, training under Rorion, Royce, Helio and Relson Gracie and founding Team Balance:

cletus

I found that "isolated rolling" (that's trademarked by the way ) worked well with beginners.

By this I mean that for the first few classes, instead of normal rolling, you ale them only roll the particular escape/drill etc that they worked on in class, but at full pace.

This way they get some feeling for working with non compliant partners, making the technique work or not, but without the feeling of being absolutely at a loss as to what to do when their partner ties them up in a position they've never seen

Kettlebelljim

When I started bjj I was the new guy for almost 6 months. I was rolling from the get go and was spazzing like mad. Eventually you learn to tap early and tap often. This forced me to learn how to defend and defend well.
I agree with the teaching of a technique in a beginners class and drilling various variants and finishing with a couple of rounds of specific sparring for time. Basically starting in the positions relevant to the technique covered.
As the beginners advance over a few weeks they will have a few basic techniques in their repertoire to be able to roll with each other.
The most important thing I learned (after tapping early) was to relax under pressure and be patient.
Some days you are the hammer, other days you are the nail.

yourdeadwright

Kettlebelljim wrote: »

When I started bjj I was the new guy for almost 6 months. I was rolling from the get go and was spazzing like mad. Eventually you learn to tap early and tap often. This forced me to learn how to defend and defend well.
I agree with the teaching of a technique in a beginners class and drilling various variants and finishing with a couple of rounds of specific sparring for time. Basically starting in the positions relevant to the technique covered.
As the beginners advance over a few weeks they will have a few basic techniques in their repertoire to be able to roll with each other.
The most important thing I learned (after tapping early) was to relax under pressure and be patient.
Some days you are the hammer, other days you are the nail.

Id have to agree once you learn to relax and flow instead of trying to force everything and hold everyone life you life depends on it, it becomes a lot easier , I suppose like anything the more you spend on the mat the more relaxed you become

yourdeadwright

anyone ever suffer from Mat burn on there chin from rolling,
At least I think its from the mat or maybe a combation of mat and people shoulders or writs while trying for chokes,
Any way to heal it quicker,

Mellor

Never on my chin, but I get them on the front of my toes. Awkward to heal. Keep it clean and sue antiseptic cream.
I used to use a iodine powder on my feet, found it very good.

Boom_Bap

Sure it's mat burn? I've seen people pick up infections from the mat that look like burns but aren't.

http://www.poss-mma.com/common-skin-diseases-spread-during-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-training/

If it is a skin thing, don't roll as you are risking infecting others.

yourdeadwright

No pretty sure its a burn, its grazed skin nothing infected thankfully,

arybvtcw0eolkf

yourdeadwright wrote: »

No pretty sure its a burn, its grazed skin nothing infected thankfully,

You probably got a burn from a particularly heavy & rough Gi, but to be honest I'd never seen that before and certainly never seen a mat burn on someone's chin.

I'd probably stay off the mat until thats healed tbh.

pablohoney87

Just on the subject of "Thinking of Starting BJJ"

The first time your role with somebody who has been training a few years is going to be such a surprise. How little control you feel like you have. And its actually a very inspiring moment and I think this video sums it up brilliantly

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1107194525974467