Spain's proposed anti protest laws

Terrlock

Please remove this post if there is a thread on this already.

What do people think of Spain's new Anti protest Laws?

From my interpretation from what I read, it means that any protest most be pre approved.

If people are involved in an un-sanctioned protest, they can be fined up too €600,000.

Also if the protest has been approved and someone insults a member of the police they will be fined up too €30,000 euro.

Also you don't get to defend yourself in court.

The prime minster says that the Law is meant to protect citizens and to guarantee the liberty and security of All.

It worries me if this law is passed, what is next on the cards.

To suppress peoples right to protest is completely un democratic in every way.

Here are links to the story, which was initially covered on RT

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/21/spain-government-strict-anti-protest-laws

http://www.thejournal.ie/anti-protest-laws-spain-1847309-Dec2014/


Also will this type of Law move to other nations in Europe?

Donkey Oaty

insulting a police officer during a demonstration could cost up to €30,000.

Y tu Mamá tambien.

Chucken

Things are getting very scary

How long before others follow and voila! We now live in a dictatorship.

Son Of A Vidic

Not so long ago Spain was a fascist dictatorship and looking back at the austerity protests across Europe. The Spanish police seemed the most brutal and enthusiastic in dishing out beatings to peaceful protesters. So the Spanish government wanting to bring in fascist style laws, doesn't surprise me in the least.

anncoates

Might as well get it out of the way.

minidazzler

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Not so long ago Spain was a fascist dictatorship and looking back at the austerity protests across Europe. The Spanish police seemed the most brutal and enthusiastic in dishing out beatings to peaceful protesters. So the Spanish government wanting to bring in fascist style laws, doesn't surprise me in the least.

You said literally exactly what I was about to say.... Protecting the liberty of the people by imprisoning or fining those who don't agree.... Great job PM

Terrlock

If Passed, it's the type of law that could even lead a country to Civil war. Have people not learned from History, there is only so much Suppression a nation will take before rising up.


Although maybe that's what they are looking for, an excuse to bring in military control, or return to facisim.

end of the road

Terrlock wrote: »

Please remove this post if there is a thread on this already.

What do people think of Spain's new Anti protest Laws?

From my interpretation from what I read, it means that any protest most be pre approved.

If people are involved in an un-sanctioned protest, they can be fined up too €600,000.

Also if the protest has been approved and someone insults a member of the police they will be fined up too €30,000 euro.

Also you don't get to defend yourself in court.

The prime minster says that the Law is meant to protect citizens and to guarantee the liberty and security of All.

It worries me if this law is passed, what is next on the cards.

To suppress peoples right to protest is completely un democratic in every way.

Here are links to the story, which was initially covered on RT

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/21/spain-government-strict-anti-protest-laws

http://www.thejournal.ie/anti-protest-laws-spain-1847309-Dec2014/


Also will this type of Law move to other nations in Europe?

its a very dangerous law that should be stopped. it could move to some other european nations i fear, but maybe not.

wendell borton

No one expects the Spanish inquisition!

DeadHand

A dangerous move given Spain's dictatorial history, a history much more recent than in the rest of Europe.

The bitterness caused by the relatively recent civil war still exists as well as various, growing separatist movements. As is always the case, economic turmoil in general and high unemployment (most especially among the young) in particular serves to fuel this dissent.

Modern Spain often strikes me as a bomb waiting to go off. Draconian actions such as these will serve only to shorten the fuse.

Arsemageddon

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

The Spanish police seemed the most brutal and enthusiastic in dishing out beatings to peaceful protesters.

I used to live in Spain and went along to a few protests when I was there. The Spanish coppers love a good baton charge and dishing out skelps to everyone in sight. That said they tend not to arrest many people. Very different to the style of public order policing in Ireland and Britain.

karma_

DeadHand wrote: »

A dangerous move given Spain's dictatorial history, a history much more recent than in the rest of Europe.

The bitterness caused by the relatively recent civil war still exists as well as various, growing separatist movements. As is always the case, economic turmoil in general and high unemployment (most especially among the young) in particular serves to fuel this dissent.

Modern Spain often strikes me as a bomb waiting to go off. Draconian actions such as these will serve only to shorten the fuse.

And to think only a few weeks ago we had hundreds of thousands march in France in solidarity of freedom of speech and so many politicians paying lip service who then turned round, went home and enacted so many contradictory policies. We live in a world of doublespeak.

LeinsterDub

Can we have a no sitting in the middle of O'Connell bridge law?

Egginacup

Arsemageddon wrote: »

I used to live in Spain and went along to a few protests when I was there. The Spanish coppers love a good baton charge and dishing out skelps to everyone in sight. That said they tend not to arrest many people. Very different to the style of public order policing in Ireland and Britain.

I think I'd prefer to be arrested so I could sue them later violating my right to free assembly than getting all my teeth shattered by some dick who enjoys doling out pain.

goose2005

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Can we have a no sitting in the middle of O'Connell bridge law?

If such a law was passed in Ireland, most here would be cheering it to get at AAA and PBP and Palestine Solidarity and all the other headbanger crusties. Kind of like how we call the US prison system a monstrous regime, but the Irish prison system isn't nearly brutal enough:pac:

LostinKildare

Did anyone else notice what the lead story was on tonight's RTE News? The most pressing, important issue today in the Republic?

That 5 days ago, some guy out of a handful of protestors shouted out that Michael D Higgins is a "midget parasite traitor."

Yup, our esteemed govt has grave fears that a schoolyard taunt is a serious threat to our nation! Eeek! Leo Varadkar denounced it as an attack on our Constitution:

"To see him targeted in this way, I think, is an attack on our Constitution and even the kind of language used against him really is beneath common decency."

Labour Senator Lorraine Higgins took to the airwaves to whip up hysteria, too:

She said that never before has the President of Ireland been subjected to this kind of abuse in the history of the State.
Senator Higgins said it was not just an attack on him as the first citizen of this country, but it was also an attack on democracy and called on gardaí to take action over the incident.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0128/676168-president-water-charge-protest/

I'd say our own govt would only LOVE to bring in legislation to limit our freedom of expression here. Certainly they spend a lot of effort demonising protesters already.

PS -- BTW, I love Michael D. I imagine he is far too sophisticated, and also sensitive to the palpable anger of the Irish people, to attach such a lofty threat to a bit of name-calling. Plus, remember when he called that rightwing American radio host a wanker? Loved that.

Greenmachine

Don't you need permission to march here too. Wouldn't an authorized protest here, be classified as an unlawful assembly.

qt3.14

Fairly sure it'd violate several European edicts and the universal Dec on human rights.

lazza14

Not surprised really, Spanish police are free to murder whoever they want to - just a few weeks ago the SS Mossos Thugs murdered some lad in the Raval.

The guardia Urbana are no different either.

Murderers and Thugs.

Manach

Worrying especially where the leftist elements in Spain have traditionally embraced violence, which eased once they could be trusted to be part of the political process instead of undermining the state.

Egginacup

wendell borton wrote: »

No one expects the Spanish inquisition!

No? Nobody expected detention without trial in the land of "liberty" either. Or warrantless surveillance, or roadside strip searches.

lazza14

lazza14 wrote: »

Not surprised really, Spanish police are free to murder whoever they want to - just a few weeks ago the SS Mossos Thugs murdered some lad in the Raval.

The guardia Urbana are no different either.

Murderers and Thugs.

Video has english subtitles - it's worth the watch ...

MRnotlob606

The sooner they get rid of their corrupt anachronistic monarchy the better.

K4t

Terrlock wrote: »

The prime minster says that the Law is meant to protect citizens and to guarantee the liberty and security of All.

Also if the protest has been approved and someone insults a member of the police they will be fined up too €30,000 euro.

Protection for the police, Fines for the people!


The only thing crazier than that would be a fine for insulting an imaginary person, a fine of say €25,000...Oh wait.

KingBrian2

Spain is a large country with many communities. They can't apply a catch 22 for the whole of the country. It is not like Ireland which only has a lánúin milliún daoine. We are talking scale here and the Spanish will have to decentralise power down to the region and maybe give the Catalans more power. That should put an end to the more virulent demonstrations we have seen so far. Not trying to justify this legislation which is crude and driven by emotion and predominantly fear but millions of unemployed Spaniards ranting and raving against the state I would not be surprised if legislation that curbs some of the excess elements of the protests would be introduced.

darkpagandeath

I'm sure these kind of mad laws are against EU laws.

AlekSmart

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Spain is a large country with many communities. They can't apply a catch 22 for the whole of the country. It is not like Ireland which only has a lánúin milliún daoine. We are talking scale here and the Spanish will have to decentralise power down to the region and maybe give the Catalans more power. That should put an end to the more virulent demonstrations we have seen so far. Not trying to justify this legislation which is crude and driven by emotion and predominantly fear but millions of unemployed Spaniards ranting and raving against the state I would not be surprised if legislation that curbs some of the excess elements of the protests would be introduced.

Not to be picky your Majesty,but would you perhaps see some parallels in our current situation ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry26f4LaWIQ

(Not sure if this translates into Spanish )

KingBrian2

AlekSmart wrote: »

Not to be picky your Majesty,but would you perhaps see some parallels in our current situation ?

(Not sure if this translates into Spanish )

Just to comment on your video but if you keep calling someone a scumbag you are dehumanising them and making it okay to treat that as such. Think of the worst thing someone could call you now imagine if they kept verbally abusing you. Eventually you would stop tolerating them.

Boskowski

Its happening all over the place most of it in the guise of anti-terror laws. A big reactionist right wing surge.
Large scale surveillance of the pesky electorate. Gap between the rich and the poor widens faster than ever. Torture is back in fashion. Civil liberties getting cut left right and centre. Makey uppey wars. Demonisation of an entire religion. Profit over people initiatives like TTIP. The list is endless.
And at the same time we see our 'representatives' standing in a line for Charlie Hebdo and bow their heads to 70 years after Auschwitz. And congratulate ourselves how open, advanced and progressive we are now that we treat gays like normal people. (Like what else would they be?)

Its all so fake and not even sophisticated and still we go along with it, laughing in the face of 'worriers' and 'clueless leftists'. Sure I have nothing to hide so nothing to worry about...

goose2005

She said that never before has the President of Ireland been subjected to this kind of abuse in the history of the State.

Except for the time the Defence Minister called Cearbhall O Dalaigh a "thundering bollocks and a ****ing disgrace", and accused him of disloyalty to the state.

KingBrian2

goose2005 wrote: »

Except for the time the Defence Minister called Cearbhall O Dalaigh a "thundering bollocks and a ****ing disgrace", and accused him of disloyalty to the state.

Now down with that sort of thing.

LostinKildare

goose2005 wrote: »

Except for the time the Defence Minister called Cearbhall O Dalaigh a "thundering bollocks and a ****ing disgrace", and accused him of disloyalty to the state.

Yes, the Fine Gael Defence Minister Paddy Donegan. And the Fine Gael Taoiseach Liam Cosgrave refused Donegan's resignation.

Then there were the various insults by Catholic clergy of Mary Robinson and Mary McAleese.

But let's not let facts get in the way a of soundbite, eh? (I see Labout TD Robert Dowds parroted the same line: “Never before in the history of the State has a President of our country ever been targeted like this,” he said.)

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/qualified-apology-from-man-who-called-president-midget-parasite-1.2082408

I fear that all this overblown outrage from the govt about what is, let's face it, pretty tame stuff as street protests go, is softening up the public for anti protest laws here in Ireland, too. Really shameful that it is Labour doing a lot of the dirty work for FG on this (e.g., Joan Burton, Alex White, Pat Rabbitte).

AlekSmart

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Just to comment on your video but if you keep calling someone a scumbag you are dehumanising them and making it okay to treat that as such. Think of the worst thing someone could call you now imagine if they kept verbally abusing you. Eventually you would stop tolerating them.

Can you see this limit being reached in the continuing saga of Irish Water and the hunt for scapegoats ?

KingBrian2

AlekSmart wrote: »

Can you see this limit being reached in the continuing saga of Irish Water and the hunt for scapegoats ?

No absolutely not, let me be clear demonstrations are all part of free societies and obviously voting is how to change governments however we are dealing with a small number of people that have no respect for the will of the people. To put it into perspective during the hotly contested Lisbon treaty the most concerning issue for most people was something that had nothing to do with economic issues. The "people" wanted a written agreement that Europe would not force through abortion but that was never a European matter has always been an internal matter. It goes back to the point that people dismiss the arguments of the day and concentrate on slandering the government. Sensible debate is replaced with bias.

nibble

General Franco would be proud indeed.

KingBrian2

nibble wrote: »

General Franco would be proud indeed.

General Franco also knew to stay neutral during WW2 and outlived all the other fascist regimes. Tyrant that he was he had a lot of international backing.

Terrlock

Anyone ever feel like we are like frogs in water that is slowly reaching boiling point....

This anti protest law was passed. We should keep careful watch on other laws that are coming in.

Often they are not covered in our media unfortunately.

end of the road

Terrlock wrote: »

This anti protest law was passed.

oh for **** sake. i hope there is mass non compliance toards it. this law needs to be destroyed

KingBrian2

end of the road wrote: »

oh for **** sake. i hope there is mass non compliance toards it. this law needs to be destroyed

This is the thing laws gets passed all the time but the compliance rate can be extremely low a case in point is jay walking which I don't even know if it is legal or not but people certainly get away with walking straight out there. How you implement the laws is also extremely important so if your hard handed then people will ignore the law and just do it anyway.

My name is URL

Think what they're doing in Spain is bad?

Look what just announced in Venezuela

http://panampost.com/sabrina-martin/2015/01/29/venezuelan-army-can-shoot-protesters-effective-immediately/

An internal ruling made by the Venezuelan Ministry of Defense, published on Tuesday, January 27, in state newsletter Gaceta Oficial, legalizes the use of lethal weapons by the national armed forces (FANB) against protesters.

feargale

LostinKildare wrote: »

Did anyone else notice what the lead story was on tonight's RTE News? The most pressing, important issue today in the Republic? That 5 days ago, some guy out of a handful of protestors shouted out that Michael D Higgins is a "midget parasite traitor."Yup, our esteemed govt has grave fears that a schoolyard taunt is a serious threat to our nation! Eeek! Leo Varadkar denounced it as an attack on our Constitution:
"To see him targeted in this way, I think, is an attack on our Constitution and even the kind of language used against him really is beneath common decency."
Labour Senator Lorraine Higgins took to the airwaves to whip up hysteria, too:

They didn't just abuse the president. Total assoles who haven't a clue about the nature and functions and duties of the presidency subjected him to physical intimidation. These thick, ignorant, mostly anarchist thugs are doing no favour to people who are genuinely aggrieved and willing to protest peacefully. And they do not represent them.They are more interested in their own "political" agenda than in the genuine suffering of decent people. Like, it would be ok if the guards very publicly insulted, humiliated and physically intimidated you. We wouldn't hear another word about it - no? Yeah?

LostinKildare wrote: »

I'd say our own govt would only LOVE to bring in legislation to limit our freedom of expression here. Certainly they spend a lot of effort demonising thug protesters already.

FYP.

LostinKildare wrote: »

PS -- BTW, I love Michael D. I imagine he is far too sophisticated, and also sensitive to the palpable anger of the Irish people, to attach such a lofty threat to a bit of name-calling. Plus, remember when he called that rightwing American radio host a wanker? Loved that.

He was dealing with a bullyboy who deserved a strong response. He did not physically intimidate him in the manner of your thug friends.

feargale

LostinKildare wrote: »

Yes, the Fine Gael Defence Minister Paddy Donegan. And the Fine Gael Taoiseach Liam Cosgrave refused Donegan's resignation.

Then there were the various insults by Catholic clergy of Mary Robinson and Mary McAleese.

And two wrongs make a right? What point are you making? It's ok to insult the presidency or it's not? At least give other badly behaved people a tiny piece of credit in that they didn't physically intimidate the president.

end of the road

feargale wrote: »

They didn't just abuse the president. Total assoles who haven't a clue about the nature and functions and duties of the presidency subjected him to physical intimidation. These thick, ignorant, mostly anarchist thugs are doing no favour to people who are genuinely aggrieved and willing to protest peacefully. And they do not represent them.They are more interested in their own "political" agenda than in the genuine suffering of decent people. Like, it would be ok if the guards very publicly insulted, humiliated and physically intimidated you. We wouldn't hear another word about it - no? Yeah?



FYP.



He was dealing with a bullyboy who deserved a strong response. He did not physically intimidate him in the manner of your thug friends.

ah gway oul that for jesus sake. it wasn't nice what these protesters said but it was hardly what you say it was.

end of the road

feargale wrote: »

And two wrongs make a right? What point are you making? It's ok to insult the presidency or it's not? At least give other badly behaved people a tiny piece of credit in that they didn't physically intimidate the president.

nobody physically intimidated the president. it was a bit of shouting roaring and a few not nice insults. shouldn't have happened but no need for the dramatizing

TheBeardedLady

General elections in the Autumn and this party are out. This is constantly happening: the right-wing government bring a law in, left-wing government remove it and vice versa. Same old, same old.

feargale

end of the road wrote: »

nobody physically intimidated the president. it was a bit of shouting roaring and a few not nice insults. shouldn't have happened but no need for the dramatizing

His car was surrounded. One yob urged the others to "take him out." When these great champions of the people come to power people of short stature will, it seems, be second class citizens. I woudn't have those yobs on my side in a three-legged race.

TheBeardedLady

What happened to Michael? :mad:

Leave Michael D ALONE!

crockholm

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

What happened to Michael? :mad:

Leave Michael D ALONE!

Jeez,of all the fetishes out there,you fall for a micky D one,probably the most impotent one out there:mad:

LostinKildare

feargale wrote: »

His car was surrounded. One yob urged the others to "take him out." When these great champions of the people come to power people of short stature will, it seems, be second class citizens. I woudn't have those yobs on my side in a three-legged race.

Would you please post video that shows his car being surrounded by protestors, and in which you hear a yob urging others to "take him out"?

LostinKildare

feargale wrote: »

He was dealing with a bullyboy who deserved a strong response. He did not physically intimidate him in the manner of your thug friends.

You're out of line there. You don't know anything about me.

My posts were in reference to the RTE coverage and govt condemnation of the VERBAL INSULTS, not physical intimidation (if there was any --- and if there was, you think they might have mentioned that).

Indeed, the link I provided from the RTE website is headlined "Verbal abuse of President by water charge protestors is condemned."

I do not think that calling the President a mean name is an attack on our constitution or a matter for the gardai. Attempting to curtail freedom of speech --- even speech that is stupid and ugly --- is a much greater threat IMO.

K4t

LostinKildare wrote: »

I do not think that calling the President a mean name is an attack on our constitution or a matter for the gardai. Attempting to curtail freedom of speech --- even speech that is stupid and ugly --- is a much greater threat IMO.

Quoted for truth.


I would go a step further and say even if someone did shout "Kill him" or "Don't let him out alive", it should be allowed without any fine or criminal prosecution. Anyone who physically assaults gardai or the car should be arrested no question.